GUILTY VA - Angelyn Ogdoc, 2, thrown off 4-story skywalk, Tysons, 30 Nov 2010

^^MomofBoys^^ I don't ever recall the sensations you mention (neither would I call you nuts). That would scare the carp out of me! I have had equally crazy thoughts that make me go woah! where did that come from, feel odd for a moment - then move on.

Which makes me think that having these wild thoughts is "normal" - acting on them is not - so where's the line between bat sheet crazy and sane? Is it all in impulse control? That would make an excellent Master's Thesis. If it's even possible to know, before the act happens.

Andrea Yates story broke my heart, for her and her children. I remember when she was first in court - my mother said; "She is insane and God bless her if she ever regains her sanity and must face what she has done - it will make her crazy all over again".

LCoastMom said:

^^MomofBoys^^ I don't ever recall the sensations you mention (neither would I call you nuts). That would scare the carp out of me! I have had equally crazy thoughts that make me go woah! where did that come from, feel odd for a moment - then move on.

Which makes me think that having these wild thoughts is "normal" - acting on them is not - so where's the line between bat sheet crazy and sane? Is it all in impulse control? That would make an excellent Master's Thesis. If it's even possible to know, before the act happens.

Andrea Yates story broke my heart, for her and her children. I remember when she was first in court - my mother said; "She is insane and God bless her if she ever regains her sanity and must face what she has done - it will make her crazy all over again".

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This has crossed my mind as well and I have too wondered whether or not it has to do with impulse control.

Kimberlyd125 said:

I have been avoiding this thread because I could not imagine reading something so horrific. Well, I finally got up the courage.

My heart bleeds for the children of this world who are SO innocent and are at the mercy of adults who do stuff like this.

Rest in peace sweet baby girl. I can not imagine what you were thinking as your grandmaw did this to you. Fly high with the angels.

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Kimberly, with all the horrifically violent acts upon children that we know about, this one is almost a blessing, by comparison - no beating, no sexual abuse, no looking into GMa's crazed eyes as the life drained out of her. A few seconds of WHAT? and then hopefully, blissfully, angels to sweep her away.

It is a tragedy none the less, and the family must be devastated - to lose Gma and baby in one act of insanity. How do we protect a child from something like this? No one could have seen it coming, or Gma wouldn't have been her babysitter, Gpa wouldn't have placed her in the car seat before Gma drove away. How horrible.

Maybe "impulse" is the wrong word in my scenario, now that I think about it. It's less an impulse and more an irrational fear. Like, walking by a really expensive vase and having a fleeting thought about pushing it off. You wouldn't do it, but it's like your brain takes a second to rebel. You think "I better not knock it off" and then you think "I wonder what would happen if I did." That doesn't really describe it either. Maybe I am nuts, lol. I thought I was until my husband brought it up one day unprompted. Until then I just thought it was one of my OCD things.

Either way, this woman picked up a little girl and hurled her to what she could assume would be a painful death. A doting grandma one day and a homicidal monster the next? I keep flashing to what the neighbor said about seeing Grandma and baby waving out the window at passerbys. I can so vividly see that and it seems like such a normal, sweet interaction. What on earth shut off in her brain? Or turned on?

Is there such thing as menopausal psychosis? I know hormones can make you do nutty things, especially if combined with an existing (diagnosed or not) mental illness. She's right around the age where women in my family have undergone rather pronounced change-of-life hormonal issues. Nothing like this, mind you, but anxiety, depression, bipolar behavior, etc. Maybe this woman had been exhibited symptoms for awhile and people chalked it up to nothing but normal hormonal fluctuations.

Maybe it sounds like I'm making excuses for her and I'm not. What she did was awful. But if the family is being truthful and it was just a normal day at the mall, then this just seems so incredibly bizarre. There has to be a switch that got flipped somewhere. In a way, these are the crimes that scare me the most because you don't know when you're three feet away from someone capable of this. It makes me want to keep my little boys in a security bubble.

MomofBoys--I think the term for what you're describing is "Intrusive thoughts".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrusive_thoughts

And I *totally* know what you mean. I sometimes think that I have extremely mild OCD (I used to have set multiple alarms, and would check them all repeatedly before going to bed, for example--and I still count, a lot). I used to sometimes have these weird thoughts--for example, being at the top of a flight of steps and thinking, "What if I deliberately fall down the stairs?" It didn't mean I would *want* to, I'd just have this fleeting thought. I thought I was totally crazy, until a friend of mine brought it up--she had the same kind of fleeting thoughts sometimes, and had the name for it. That was reassuring.

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/global-filipino/12/03/10/grandma-who-threw-grandchild-mentally-ill-police

Dela Rosa is said to have had a tense relationship with the toddler’s father, James Ogdoc, to a point where they were not on speaking terms.

Law enforcement said there is video footage of the incident, as well as a statement from Dela Rosa, but neither has been released. She is in jail for murder and is expected back in court in January.

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A Filipino grandmother who is in jail for throwing her granddaughter to her death may have been suffering from mental illness for several years.

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This IMO makes more sense than blaming tense relations with her S-I-L... From the ^^ link she went away in Sept after being near a nervous breakdown.

No Bond for VA Woman Accused of Throwing Child Off Mall Walkway

A Fairfax County judge has denied bond for a 50-year-old grandmother charged with murder for allegedly tossing her granddaughter off an elevated walkway at Tysons Corner Center.

http://www.whsv.com/home/headlines/...hrowing_Child_Off_Mall_Walkway_112253324.html

Just finding this thread. This is across the street from DH's office... a mall that we visit. What an awful tragic story. :no:

Here's an article from today's Post, with the mother speaking out:

Mother describes seeing toddler before fatal fall at Tysons


By Tom Jackman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, February 19, 2011; 12:44 AM

Kathlyn Ogdoc remembered that she held the door open for her two-year-old daughter and her mother as they headed from the food court at Tysons Corner Center to the parking lot. When Ogdoc looked back, she saw her mother scoop up the toddler, Angelyn, as if to keep up with the other adults.

Ogdoc took a few steps more, then looked back again. Recalling that November evening in court Friday, barely audible through her tears, she said she saw her mother standing at the walkway railing, five stories above the ground, and "I saw her drawing her hands back."

And Angelyn was gone, she realized, dropped from the 50-foot-high walkway.

........

As Ogdoc and her family stood near the injured Angelyn, they looked up at Dela Rosa, five stories above them. Ogdoc said her mother had crossed her arms on the railing, placed her chin on them, and placidly looked down at them, saying nothing.

Full article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...806062.html?hpid=newswell&sid=ST2010113006891

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JoeFromLB said:

This person claims to be an eyewitness to the events immediately following the child's fall.

If what he is saying is true, this was no accident.

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It was not an accident. The mall surveillance captured it all on video:

Ogdoc did not actually see her mother drop Angelyn over the railing, instead only glancing back at her twice: once to see her pick up the toddler, and once to see her empty-handed at the walkway railing.

But sources close to the case said the mall surveillance cameras captured the horrific event. The tape was not played in court Friday.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...6062_2.html?hpid=newswell&sid=ST2010113006891

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In addition to Ogdoc's testimony, the first Fairfax police officer on the scene added a new detail to the case. Officer Anthony Stancampiano said he was dispatched to the mall at 7:20 p.m. on Nov. 29, found paramedics treating the toddler, then looked up and saw Dela Rosa still on the fifth-floor walkway, speaking with mall security.

"I walked up to her and asked if she was the one involved in this," Stancampiano said. "She said, 'Yes, I did it. I threw the baby off.' "

Dela Rosa watched the hearing impassively, occasionally making comments to her lawyer, Fairfax Chief Deputy Public Defender Dawn M. Butorac. Family members declined to comment after the hearing, and Ogdoc could be seen in a witness room after the hearing, sobbing and being comforted by her husband, James, who was working at Tysons that night.

"She's devastated," Morrogh said of Ogdoc after the hearing. "She's a wonderful young woman and I think everyone's heart is broken for her."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...6062_2.html?hpid=newswell&sid=ST2010113006891

Grandmother's case sent to grand jury in toddler's death


The case of a grandmother accused of throwing her 2-year-old granddaughter to her death at the Tysons Corner Center has been sent to a grand jury, the Associated Press reports..

Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://washingtonexaminer.com/topics/carmela-dela-rosa#ixzz1HYEnr0Pt



Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://washingtonexaminer.com/topics/carmela-dela-rosa#ixzz1HYEgFEZ3

Grandmother denied Bond!! 04/08/2011


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...1/04/08/AFnJ3M2C_blog.html?wprss=rss_homepage

Start of Trial for Grandmother Accused in Toddler Killing

The Fairfax woman charged with throwing her 2-year-old granddaughter 50-feet to the child's death faces trial today.

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...Grandmother-Who-Killed-Toddler-130552328.html

On Monday during opening arguments, prosecutors said that Dela Rosa intentionally killed the child out of anger towards James Ogdoc, her son-in-law. According to prosecutors, Dela Rosa did not forgive Ogdoc for getting her daughter pregnant out of wedlock.

Dela Rosa's attorneys said she was insane at the time of the incident.

James Ogdoc took the stand and recounted seeing his child in the hospital receiving treatment.

"They couldn't resuscitate her," Ogdoc said. "They eventually gave up because the brain damage was too much."

The judge called for a recess after Ogdoc broke down on the stand and could not continue testifying.

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Trial-of-Grandmother-Accused-of-Killing-Toddler-Interrupted-by-Lice-130644363.html

Dela Rosa statement played for jury in toddler death case <<snipped>>

Prosecutors contend that Dela Rosa was a “spiteful” woman who intended to kill her granddaughter, Angelyn Ogdoc. Her attorney argued that Dela Rosa, who pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity, is deeply troubled woman and suffers from depression.

Dela Rosa told detectives in the interview that she didn’t like James Ogdoc when he began dating her daughter, Kathlyn, while both were in high school. The feelings, which she described as jealousy, grew deeper when Kathlyn Ogdoc became pregnant during her sophomore year in college.

James and Kathlyn Ogdoc later married. Dela Rosa said she thought James Ogdoc robbed her daughter of the opportunity to meet other men and spend time with the family.

It was a phone call between James and Kathlyn Ogdoc that set her off at the mall, Dela Rosa said.

Dela Rosa told the detectives that she suffered from depression and hadn’t taken her medication for several days before the incident. She said she was stressed about being unemployed and in debt. And she said she felt as if her family had a secret language to exclude her.

Dela Rosa told detectives that she wasn’t allowed to be alone with Angelyn. As they neared the mall walkway, she said, she saw an opportunity to get rid of the toddler “permanently” and hurt James in doing so.

At that moment, Dela Rosa said, she thought that if Angelyn “had been gone, I would feel good that James doesn’t have her anymore.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dela-rosa-statement-played-for-jury-in-toddler-death-case/2011/09/27/gIQAH2DH3K_story.html

Spiteful, nasty woman. I hope the jury sees her for what she really is.

Doctors: Carmela Dela Rosa suffered from major depression

Dr. Cynthia L. Gauss, a psychiatrist at INOVA Fairfax Hospital, examined Dela Rosa after the suicide attempt and testified the grandmother was suffering from a “major depression with no psychosis.”

“She was feeling hopeless and overwhelmed,” Gauss said. “She was distressed and burned out from trying to find a job.”

Dela Rosa had lost a series of part-time jobs shortly before Angelyn’s death. The Dela Rosa family was also under serious financial strain.

Gauss said Dela Rosa needed intensive treatment and that her judgement was clouded by depression. Other doctors testified they had prescribed Prozac for Dela Rosa, who was on and off the depression medication for years.

During cross-examination from Commonwealth’s Attorney Ray Morrogh, Gauss testified Dela Rosa was alert, pleasant and cooperative when she examined her a few days after the suicide attempt. Dela Rosa also did not have homicidal or suicidal thoughts at the time, the doctor said.

In Virginia, the defense has a high bar to meet to prove an insanity plea. Attorneys must show a mental health problem kept the defendant from understanding the nature, character and consequences of a crime or that the defendant was unable to distinguish right from wrong.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/crime-scene/post/doctors-carmela-dela-rosa-suffered-from-major-depression/2011/09/29/gIQAHYTt7K_blog.html

Dela Rosa Portrayed As Conflicted, Complicated Woman

Carmela dela Rosa's mug shot was taken a few hours after she picked up her 2-year-old granddaughter, Angelyn Ogdoc, last Nov. 29 and dropped the toddler over a 44-foot pedestrian foot bridge at Tysons Corner Center.

http://fairfaxcity.patch.com/articles/dela-rosa-portrayed-as-conflicted-complicated-woman

Anyone have any new information on this case??????? This case hurts my heart and makes me so angry.:maddening::furious::banghead::banghead::banghead:

The jury is deliberating...

<<snipped>>

Fairfax County jurors who began deliberating Wednesday in the murder trial of a woman who tossed her 2-year-old granddaughter off a mall walkway are faced with a single question: Was she sane at the time?

The jury will decide whether Dela Rosa is guilty of first- or second-degree murder or not guilty by reason of insanity. If convicted, she could face a sentence of up to life in prison.

Key testimony came in the final days, when the prosecution and defense each called psychologists who presented different conclusions about Dela Rosa’s mental state.

Stanton Samenow, a clinical psychologist who testified for the prosecution, said Dela Rosa was “devastated” when Kathlyn got pregnant at 19 before she was married, and Dela Rosa never got over that fact. The night she learned her daughter was going to have a baby, she locked herself in her room and said the rosary. She focused her rage on James Ogdoc.

“There is a lot of hate in this woman,” Samenow said.

When asked whether Dela Rosa was suffering from psychosis, Samenow was succinct: “Absolutely not,” he said.

Instead, Samenow testified that Dela Rosa has a borderline personality disorder. Dela Rosa was “angry, uncompromising, unforgiving and difficult” and had alienated members of her family, Samenow testified.

Earlier in the trial, the defense called Dela Rosa’s friends and relatives, who testified that the grandmother had been trying to organize a family reunion and called Angelyn by the nickname “Lovey.”

The testimony was a jarring contrast with a videotaped interview between Dela Rosa and Fairfax County detectives played in court. The grandmother admitted to killing Angelyn.

“I just saw James through her, through the baby,” Dela Rosa said in the interview. “I thought about James and I threw her.”

In his closing argument, Morrogh said Dela Rosa hatched the plot to kill Angelyn minutes before leaving the mall.

He said images from a surveillance camera show that Dela Rosa let her family pass, then darted to the railing with Angelyn.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/jury-to-consider-sanity-of-grandmother-charged-in-tots-death/2011/10/04/gIQAZOkrOL_story.html