IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, West Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 #4

back to the top...would love to hear any new developments.

thefragile7393 said:

Anything new on your end Dr. Doogie?

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Sorry, I didn't see this until the bump.

Nothing new that I am aware of, but circumstances are such that I do not spend a lot of time working on Johnny's case anymore. The two sources of eyewitness information - Paul Bonnaci and Jimmy Gibson - seem to have disappeared online and without their involvement, success seems unlikely.

Before they stopped participating, they both supplied a different name for "Tony" (the composite from the Michaela Garecht kidnapping). I have some details - enough to followup on - but I have not had the time required to nail them down. Among other issues, it will require some travel, but I am trying to get as much info as possible before making trip.

Dr. Doogie, you said, "The two sources of eyewitness information - Paul Bonnaci and Jimmy Gibson - seem to have disappeared online and without their involvement, success seems unlikely."


I noticed that too, as well as Paul's facebook account is no longer online- any reason why this is? He was pretty active for a time over at the Franklin Files website as well....any concerns?

I don't know. If the threats against them are real and not fabrications, they both have survived a long time and, I assume, they know how to protect themselves.

Dr. Doogie said:

Sorry, I didn't see this until the bump.

Nothing new that I am aware of, but circumstances are such that I do not spend a lot of time working on Johnny's case anymore. The two sources of eyewitness information - Paul Bonnaci and Jimmy Gibson - seem to have disappeared online and without their involvement, success seems unlikely.

Before they stopped participating, they both supplied a different name for "Tony" (the composite from the Michaela Garecht kidnapping). I have some details - enough to followup on - but I have not had the time required to nail them down. Among other issues, it will require some travel, but I am trying to get as much info as possible before making trip.

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Interesting. I am truely hoping that when you get time you'll be able to update more and stuff. Or that you will get time at all LOL. Your working on this in an informal way seems like a good shot. It's not surprising that the two are now being hard to find online.....but I'm not sure what, if anything, that means. It can go two ways. In my oddest dreams I would love to see this case finally brought forth to completion, but without even one of those two I agree that it seems like it would be unlikely.

thefragile7393 said:

Interesting. I am truely hoping that when you get time you'll be able to update more and stuff. Or that you will get time at all LOL. Your working on this in an informal way seems like a good shot. It's not surprising that the two are now being hard to find online.....but I'm not sure what, if anything, that means. It can go two ways. In my oddest dreams I would love to see this case finally brought forth to completion, but without even one of those two I agree that it seems like it would be unlikely.

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I wonder if someone visits the Franklin Files message boards, whether any insight can be gained as to why they have suddenly gone MIA.

I think that's a good idea, but I'll be the first to admit I'm scared of that place lol

The Trineday site (publishers of The Franklin Scandal) and The Franklin Scandal dot com site are both gone too.

OOO-EEE-OOO!

Roy Harrold said:

The Trineday site (publishers of The Franklin Scandal) and The Franklin Scandal dot com site are both gone too.

OOO-EEE-OOO!

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Really weird. I wonder what's going on? Is the Franklin Files site still up? I guess I can go look, lol. I just really don't care for that site.

Roy Harrold said:

The Trineday site (publishers of The Franklin Scandal) and The Franklin Scandal dot com site are both gone too.

OOO-EEE-OOO!

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hmmm...just looked and both those sites are still up.

Franklinfiles.net is still up. Franklinfiles.com is gone.

Ya know, I check on this thread from time to time, being that I grew up about 20 minutes from where Johnny was taken. It was a scary time for us kids and also for our parents. If and again this is only an IF, he is alive and he has been in contact with people, I think that it is a crime in of itself to not make it public. I don't buy the whole wanting to stay out of the spotlight. Yes, it would be HUGE news right after he came back but it would be very easy for him to slip back into the shadows. I mean, he is listed as a missing person. His file is still active. Heck, he would not even have to show himself in public if that is what is stopping him. I am sure it could be arranged for him to meet with WDM PD and the FBI, to prove who he is, then they could close the missing person files.

Arg....sorry but it really burns me that if he is alive, he would continue to keep the search going for him. It's cruel to his family and friends and to everyone who continues to search for him.

M ~

I was looking at this website (www.johnnygosch.com) that claimed that Johnny was kidnapped along with Anton LaVey's son Michael. Problem is, Anton LaVey never had a son named Michael. His son is named Xerxes and he was born in 1993 and has never been kidnapped. Anton LaVey had one grandson named Stanton Zaharoff LaVey, who has also never been kidnapped. It's amazing how much crazy misinformation there is about the Johnny Gosch case that when you start to look into it, is clearly wrong or doesn't make any sense.

mnegri1973 said:

Ya know, I check on this thread from time to time, being that I grew up about 20 minutes from where Johnny was taken. It was a scary time for us kids and also for our parents. If and again this is only an IF, he is alive and he has been in contact with people, I think that it is a crime in of itself to not make it public. I don't buy the whole wanting to stay out of the spotlight. Yes, it would be HUGE news right after he came back but it would be very easy for him to slip back into the shadows. I mean, he is listed as a missing person. His file is still active. Heck, he would not even have to show himself in public if that is what is stopping him. I am sure it could be arranged for him to meet with WDM PD and the FBI, to prove who he is, then they could close the missing person files.

Arg....sorry but it really burns me that if he is alive, he would continue to keep the search going for him. It's cruel to his family and friends and to everyone who continues to search for him.

M ~

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Perhaps, if he's alive, he has his own reasons. THere's many missing person cases where it appears that the person just walked away from their old life and told no loved ones at all. So this doesn't surprise me at all. If he is alive and some of this information is true (because there's no way that ALL of it could be true..yeesh) he could be just really warped now. I don't know, just throwings thoughts out. Tis why I was reading with much interest Dr. D's research...at least here is someone with a clear mind and no vested interest doing some general interest work to see if maybe some light can be shed once and for all.

thefragile7393 said:

Tis why I was reading with much interest Dr. D's research...at least here is someone with a clear mind and no vested interest doing some general interest work to see if maybe some light can be shed once and for all.

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Yea, verily - and hoorah for that!

Doogie is a very admirable version of an "sleuth", in my opinion.

I've come to realize that there are certain obstacles, to almost every person having the ability to make any meaningful contribution to this case, some of which have existed from 'day 1'. Doogie is (or was anyway) plugged into sources of info about 'developments', which choose to be controlling and secretive. Personally, I'm not interested in following him or others into that 'dragon's den' and wouldn't be admitted anyway.

So, for most of us, we can only wait for the 'plugged in' to choose to share info publicly. That is, however, the way they want it to be.
There exist, on certain forums where this case has been discussed, some disturbing and disheartening statements by those who claim to represent the Gosch family's interests, to the effect of: members of the general public have "no right" to attempt to investigate this case and their efforts to do so are not welcome.

On another note about a kid who had been murdered in 1981 who had been a paperboy (although in that case it seems irrelevant), I noted that I was unfamiliar with the Johnny Gosch case. Therefore, I looked it up. I realized that I had, of course, heard of it as it is one of the most celebrated such cases due to the efforts of Noreen Gosch, Johnny’s mother, and her subsequent conspiracy theories and her self-published book. I just hadn’t recalled the boy’s last name at the time.

I’ve done a quick study to familiarize myself with it. During the course of this, I listened to Mrs. Gosch’s interview about her son’s tragic case as presented on You Tube. One point of her recounting of the events of that day that jumped out to me was that she noted that never before during the many months that Johnny had had his paper route had the boy not wakened his dad to ask him to help him. This was the first (and as it turns out, tragically the last) time he had went on the route alone, except for the family’s pet dog.

How does Mrs. Gosch reconcile this with her theory that Johnny had been stalked beforehand? Does she assume that the kidnapper(s) would have grabbed Johnny even when accompanied by his dad?

Another point are the pictures Mrs. Gosch maintains were anonymously sent to her showing bound and gagged boys (one of whom she asserts is her son), and subsequent pictures sent to her that she claims are of Johnny in such a state as well. The photos of the boy lying tied-up on a bed (on her website) is supposed to be her son, presumably soon after his abduction?

Although it is admittedly difficult to gage height from such a photograph, it seems to me that this boy was no more than the five feet, ninety pounds (if that) that is the average for twelve-year-old boys in the United States according to charts I looked up on the internet. According to a missing children website, Johnny Gosch had been 5’7” and 140 lbs. Indeed, one puzzling aspect of the case, assuming he was the victim of one or more pedophiles, is that they would single out such a relatively big kid.

If Johnny was abducted, I would guess that his kidnapper must have been a big man or that there had been more than one kidnapper. If they had wanted the boy as part of the organized pedophilia ring that Mrs. Gosch positions as responsible for her son’s abduction, it seems strange they would go to the trouble of stalking a kid already so tall for his age as his sinister “marketability” period would seemed to have been of a rather limited duration, even more so than it would be for smaller kids.

Also, this kid (from the photo where his face can be clearly seen) simply doesn’t look all that much like Johnny Gosch to me. The noses don't even look close and the boy on the bed seems darker, as if he might be of Italian heritage or partially so. (He's wearing what looks to be a crucifix around his neck, so I'm going to guess he's Catholic.) Am I the first person to have made these points?

As I said, I am just becoming familiar with the case and I’m sure all these points have been addressed here previously. But if anyone can answer my questions, I’d be appreciative.

Thank you.

Well, despite the ocean of metaphorical ink thus far spilled over this case, no one has answered my questions in my last post. Perhaps you are all pooped discussing the case, which I can understand.

However, I shall try posing one more simple question. Has anyone commented on the seeming coincidence that the one and only day Johnny Gosch went out to deliver his papers alone (for reasons his mother says she doesn’t know to this day) without his father just happened to be the day when someone was waiting to abduct him (or perhaps any suitable boy)?

Has anyone ever investigated any alternative motive to pedophilia, regradless if such had been the actions of a lone pervert or some conspiracy?

Although I am highly skeptical concerning most of Mrs. Gosch’s seemingly imaginative theories and allegations, there is one thing I do agree with her on. The claim that Johnny had run away seems highly improbable. If he were a runaway, his decision must have been oddly spontaneous. He first gathers his papers at the drop off point and then on the spur of the moment decides he’s going to take off?

By the way, in my last note I said I watched the interview with Mrs. Gosch on You Tube. It is actually on Google Videos. I apologize for the factual error.

Armchair14, have you read Noreen Gosch's book? Perhaps that would answer the question you have about stalking. I can't remember the details because it's been a long time since I've read the book, but I recall that Mrs. Gosch said that she believed that her son was set up to be kidnapped because she was told as much by the people who kidnapped him. They also told her when the kidnapping of Eugene Martin would take place. She also hinted, or maybe more than hinted, that her husband had actually arranged for the kidnapping, which would account for the father not being present. I thought that she said that Johnny had asked if he could go alone, and Mrs. Gosch said no, but Mr. Gosch said yes.

So I suppose the answer to your question would be that, according to Mrs. Gosch, it wasn't a coincidence. It was planned that Johnny would be alone that morning.

Regarding the pictures, that is certainly a point of disagreement for a lot of people. There was a letter apparently from the NCMEC that stated that the photos have been verified, although there seems to be some contention with that, as well.

There are a lot of theories regarding this case, but I think the fact remains that Johnny Gosch's fate remains unknown, so no matter who believes what, I think we can all agree that it would be nice to answer that question at the very least.

Mr. E,

Thank you for your response.

Mrs. Gosch actually alleges her ex-husband, the boy’s own father, sold him into sexual slavery? I take it theirs was not an amicable divorce.

What’s the story regarding her alleging that Mr. Gosch had several times passed another woman off as his wife? Has that been verified? Has Mr. Gosch provided any response and, if he acknowledges it, any explanation for why he would have done that?

In regard to the photos, are you familiar with the true story regarding the Tichborne claimant? Sir Roger Tichborne was the heir to a tremendous British fortune in the mid-nineteenth century. In 1854, he was lost at sea and presumed dead. He had been declared such a year later. However, his grieving mother never accepted it.

About ten years after Tichborne’s presumed death, an imposter emerged claiming to be him. He had been living in Australia in obscurity, or so he said.

Despite the fact that the imposter was tall and practically obese while Tichborne had been small and slight; despite the fact that Tichborne had had a tattoo and the imposter did not; and despite the fact that Tichborne had spoken French as his first language (despite having been English, he spoke English with a French accent) and the imposter could not speak French at all and spoke English with a lower class English accent, would it surprise you that he managed to convince Tichborne’s mother that he was actually her son?

Regarding grieving mothers, need I suggest more?