The cries for help

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Concerned Papa said:
  • How was George screaming with his mouth and nose covered?
  • How was George screaming if he was out of breath?
  • How was George screaming if he was barely conscious?

Questions For Robert Zimmerman Jr - YouTube
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I wasn't aware that we could use our own edited version of MSM videos, nice. My question would be, if it's TM screaming, why? He's on top of GZ and the screaming goes off and on for over 45 seconds.

That and the fact that no one said his mouth was covered the entire 45 - 60 seconds they were wrestling around on the ground, they were moving. It stands to reason he could have moved his head free off and on.

Mary Cutcher's, by the way, said she didn't hear screaming, that she heard moaning and then a gun shot - maybe that's when he was covering his mouth and nose? JMO
 
vlpate said:
I've seen that too Ranch, but even the prosecutor stated he estimated GZ stopped following TM about a minute prior to the phone call ending. TM's g/f said TM told her he lost GZ, and GZ states on the 911 call he didn't know where he was. That would mean GZ disconnected the call and ran like the dickens, found the hiding TM, and cornered him --shall we add here "with the help of an accomplice" that some have speculated on as well?

The only thing that makes sense is TM coming out of nowhere and confronting GZ. Funny how it seems so simple to some, like me, and so difficult to countless others, lol.
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When did she say that?
 
who said:
Perhaps unwrapping and imagining Zimmerman confronting Martin may alleviate the confusion?
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Well it doesn't help because I'm not talking about the confrontation. Why would TM be screaming while he was assaulting GZ?
 
vlpate said:
Well it doesn't help because I'm not talking about the confrontation. Why would TM be screaming while he was assaulting GZ?
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You answered your own question. Trayvon was screaming because he was being assaulted BY George Zimmerman. JMO
 
francie said:
This is jmo but I don't think Trayvon was able to say anything after the shooting. I think his screaming stopped abruptly after the shot because he was killed instantly due to the hollow point bullet, but we won't know until coroner's report is released. :(

:moo:
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I agree with you, francie.

A killer-hollow-point-bullet to Trayvon's center chest would have instantly ripped apart both his heart and lungs.

For Trayvon to opine with his dying last breath, "you got it," or "You got me" is not only melodramatic, right out of a 60's Western "B" movie, but also physically impossible.

Ya have to wonder how people can even dream up such ridiculous statements. _ :waitasec:

They go right along with >>>

"Copious amounts of blood flowing down George's throat."

" One more head slam to the concrete and George would be wearing diapers and spoon-fed by Robert jr. the rest of his life."

"Gashes and blows to the back of George's head so deadly serious he was almost unconscious and had to murder Trayvon to save his own life."

"George was so scared when Trayvon was nefariously circling his SUV that George forgot he was armed with his trusty 9mm handgun loaded with hollow point bullets."

** the above is my opinion and paraphrased

My 11 year old grandson could invent more convincing fairy-tale lies!
 
I just wanted to point out a few things here regarding some of the recent comments.

- Judging by the timeline thread, the fight was approximately 1 minute in length (55 seconds). In that period of time many thing can happen, for example George's mouth and nose may have been covered for up to 35-40 seconds before the screams. This wouldn't allow for the "bashing" of his head into the concrete. Making a small timeline of the events, it's my belief that everything Zimmerman stated could have happened. Here's how it could have happened, in my estimation:
19:16:00 Time approximate - call with girlfriend ends after she hears interchange with Trayvon and unknown follower
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- I believe this is when Mr. Martin would have hit Mr. Zimmerman. It is also my belief that he did so with his phone, not his knuckles, which could explain why the call was dropped.
19:16:02 - Young man saw Mr. Zimmerman on the ground. Mr. Martin was still standing, out of view of the young man (see next point).
19:16:04 - Mr. Martin is on top of Mr. Zimmerman.
19:16:10 - Mr. Martin starts "slamming" Mr. Zimmerman's head into the concrete.
19:16:25 - Mr. Martin closes Mr. Zimmerman's mouth and nose.
19:16:30 - Mr. Martin notices Mr. Zimmerman's weapon.
19:16:44 - Mr. Zimmerman sees "John" and yells for him to help.
19:16:55:47 GUNSHOT
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Again, just one way it could have happened with everything stated by Mr. Zimmerman being realized. Because the timeline doesn't have the time of the screams I had to estimate when I believe it would've happened.

- As with the above example, time does play a factor in how you wish to believe or not believe someone's story. I do not know the field of view the young man in the video above had, though I do know that he saw one man on the ground and then had to chase after his dog. This is not inconsistent with George's statement that Mr. Martin punched him and that Mr. Martin THEN got on top of him. It would not be instantaneous that Mr. Martin would've been on top of him. This young man probably just saw the time period from when Mr. Zimmerman was punched and did not see Mr. Martin get on top of him because he went to chase his dog. This young man saw a brief few seconds of the beginning of the struggle that lasted much longer.
 
AJ Noiter said:
I just wanted to point out a few things here regarding some of the recent comments.

- Judging by the timeline thread, the fight was approximately 1 minute in length (55 seconds). In that period of time many thing can happen, for example George's mouth and nose may have been covered for up to 35-40 seconds before the screams. This wouldn't allow for the "bashing" of his head into the concrete. Making a small timeline of the events, it's my belief that everything Zimmerman stated could have happened. Here's how it could have happened, in my estimation:
- I believe this is when Mr. Martin would have hit Mr. Zimmerman. It is also my belief that he did so with his phone, not his knuckles, which could explain why the call was dropped.
19:16:02 - Young man saw Mr. Zimmerman on the ground. Mr. Martin was still standing, out of view of the young man (see next point).
19:16:04 - Mr. Martin is on top of Mr. Zimmerman.
19:16:10 - Mr. Martin starts "slamming" Mr. Zimmerman's head into the concrete.
19:16:25 - Mr. Martin closes Mr. Zimmerman's mouth and nose.
19:16:30 - Mr. Martin notices Mr. Zimmerman's weapon.
19:16:44 - Mr. Zimmerman sees "John" and yells for him to help.


Again, just one way it could have happened with everything stated by Mr. Zimmerman being realized. Because the timeline doesn't have the time of the screams I had to estimate when I believe it would've happened.

- As with the above example, time does play a factor in how you wish to believe or not believe someone's story. I do not know the field of view the young man in the video above had, though I do know that he saw one man on the ground and then had to chase after his dog. This is not inconsistent with George's statement that Mr. Martin punched him and that Mr. Martin THEN got on top of him. It would not be instantaneous that Mr. Martin would've been on top of him. This young man probably just saw the time period from when Mr. Zimmerman was punched and did not see Mr. Martin get on top of him because he went to chase his dog. This young man saw a brief few seconds of the beginning of the struggle that lasted much longer.
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:tyou: Excellent post! See if these will help with the times.

Time lapsed 911 calls - first one where he yells for help for at least 45 seconds
.
http://youtu.be/-a58plIcrdo

Another time lapsed version of 911 calls
.
http://youtu.be/FouK--YJLVs
 
HiHater said:
You answered your own question. Trayvon was screaming because he was being assaulted BY George Zimmerman. JMO
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I always have felt GZ was trying to keep TM from getting away, even while they were on the ground and that is why TM had little or no injuries to his hands. If TM were punching GZ in the nose and then covered his mouth and/or banging GZ's head onto the cement, TM would have had large amounts of blood on his hands. GZ had no hair so TM would have had to hold onto GZ's head to control the banging which would have caused some type of scraping or bruising of TM's hands when they also hit the sidewalk. I believe the cries are from TM because GZ was holding onto him even though he was struggling to get away and once TM was able to get part way up I believe it freed up the gun and GZ shot him.

I really think the trajectory will show TM was trying to get up and away from GZ and that is why the charges are 2nd degree. jmo
 
vlpate said:
This interview was early on and it's been completely removed by ABC. There's a reason for that, IMO. As far as whether it was a T-shirt, a sweater, or a jacket, it was red and hopefully Twin Lakes is not littered with screaming men in red, rolling around the grounds :waitasec:
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Would you care to share your reasons ABC removed the video? Was it a civil rights organization conspiracy?
Gee, I'm thinking that on that dark rainy night it would be much easier to determine if someone was wearing a T-Shirt or Bulky Long Sleeve Jacket than it would be to determine the color red-black from dark gray.

Isn't it interesting how ALL colors meld into grays during night time rain storms in the absence of any light?

I believe this is when TM first punched GZ. The little boy then went back around his building, as he describes, and hears the screaming when TM gets on top of GZ and assaults him.
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R E A L L Y ?
It must have been an especially relaxed, slow fight then, huh? The boy sees only one person on the ground. Trayvon was completely out of sight -- not anywhere near poor knocked-down George.

Was Trayvon patiently waiting at the neighbor's condo for George to recover enough so Trayvon could leisurely walk back over to the prone-pistol-packer and pounce on him?

Clearly Matt Guttman did not steer him in any way, shape or form, he said, without an ounce of provocation, "red". The kid's mother also said she put LE off for three days (I'm assuming so she could obtain legal representation), before she allowed them to interview her son. She's put her 13 year old son's first, middle, and last name out to the public - why? To what end?? Why is she going on Al Shaprton's show to tell her son's story? Of course he was interviewed and likely the night it happened. When the document dump happens, we'll see agendas, IMO.
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bbm

Oh, I don't know. Perhaps she was sick and tired of the reported racism and corruption of the SPD and was outraged that an unarmed, innocent Black boy was laying in a coffin while his killer was free as a bird -- not arrested or even drug tested at the SPD the night of the murder.

Perhaps she was interested in seeing justice, for a change. Do you think for one minute that George Zimmerman would have been arrested without the active public outrage of Crump, Jackson, Sharpton and friends?

Even George and his good buddy Joe Oliver thought the *problem* would blow-over before the civil rights guys became involved.

Yes, we will see the agendas. We'll also see some really big lies exposed.


His mother wasn't there.
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His mother WAS there during the interview when the boy said it was too dark to see colors. The investigator insisted the boy define a color.

Since the investigator was an intimidating, scary authority figure, apparently the frightened boy DID come up with the color the investigator preferred.

:waitasec: I thought it was too dark to see colors?
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Yup, that's what the boy originally said. See what I mean about how UNRELIABLE witness testimony is -- especially when relying on a frightened, confused child?

Unfortunately I think this is the exact reaction Crump and Co. were shooting or with the mother and her interviews.
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I don't think the boy's statement makes a hill-of-beans difference. Just like I don't think John's statement will make a difference.

The timeline - phone records - provable LIES - plus forensics will MAKE this murder case.

IMO, the prosecution has the faultiest eyewitness with their "shadows running" in a direction Gilbreath was not certain of. Seems a bit like reaching to me.
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Again, IMO, the witnesses are not THE case. Neither is O'mara's Bond Hearing fishing exhibition.
Their first statements to police are all that will count anyway, not the media circus. So, we will see come dump time. JMO
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The first statements will NOT be the ones to count if AC determines the witness statements were intimidated and coerced.

But I agree. The document dump will indeed be illuminating!

In my opinion, or course
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LambChop said:
I always have felt GZ was trying to keep TM from getting away, even while they were on the ground and that is why TM had little or no injuries to his hands. If TM were punching GZ in the nose and then covered his mouth and/or banging GZ's head onto the cement, TM would have had large amounts of blood on his hands. GZ had no hair so TM would have had to hold onto GZ's head to control the banging which would have caused some type of scraping or bruising of TM's hands when they also hit the sidewalk. I believe the cries are from TM because GZ was holding onto him even though he was struggling to get away and once TM was able to get part way up I believe it freed up the gun and GZ shot him.

I really think the trajectory will show TM was trying to get up and away from GZ and that is why the charges are 2nd degree. jmo
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How do you know what injuries and/or blood TM had on him without an autopsy report? Some are taking what this funeral director said as if he was the ME.
 
cityslick said:
How do you know what injuries and/or blood TM had on him without an autopsy report? Some are taking what this funeral director said as if he was the ME.
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I made no reference to what the funeral diector has said. I stated that if GZ injuries were caused by TM, TM should have had a large amount of blood on his hands and some injuries. We haven't seen the ME's report yet. I was not stating it as a fact. What I was saying was in order for GZ's story to prove he was beated TM's body would have sustained some type of blood evidence that would show he was beating on GZ. jmo
 
vlpate said:
I wasn't aware that we could use our own edited version of MSM videos, nice. My question would be, if it's TM screaming, why? He's on top of GZ and the screaming goes off and on for over 45 seconds.

That and the fact that no one said his mouth was covered the entire 45 - 60 seconds they were wrestling around on the ground, they were moving. It stands to reason he could have moved his head free off and on.

Mary Cutcher's, by the way, said she didn't hear screaming, that she heard moaning and then a gun shot - maybe that's when he was covering his mouth and nose? JMO
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BBBM

Was this before or after GZ's head was repeatedly bashed against the cement nearly resulting in him being a vegetable for the rest of his life?
 
cityslick said:
How do you know what injuries and/or blood TM had on him without an autopsy report? Some are taking what this funeral director said as if he was the ME.
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Isn't that sort of what we are all doing with ALL the supposed facts and rumors we think we have learned?

The true facts are, we have very few true facts. The document dump will be a welcomed frustration reducer.

Though we do not have any facts from the autopsy report, I would think the Funeral Director is experienced enough to know the telltale signs of a fist fight -- scratched and bruised knuckles and hands, especially.

Did he have a reason to lie when he said there were no signs of a fight on Trayvon's body, especially on his hands? Personally, I don't think so. He knew for certain the autopsy report would be out eventually. Why be labeled as a liar in the near future? I believe he's truthful with the extent of his knowledge.

The autopsy report will reveal more details which the Funeral Director couldn't possibly know. I just hope the ME isn't big buddies with the SPD. I trust no one fully who officially has anything to do with this horrible tragedy. It's a disheartening and sad fact.
 
GZ provoked this entire 'assault', he didn't say there was a fight, did he but he surely wants LE to believe he was in a life or death situation even though he had a loaded weapon...I believe being a criminal justice major, he knew the right words to utter to have this all go away...but he didn't count on a few things..

Did he not realize his entire converstation was being recorded?
He wasn't aware that TM was on the phone and informed the person on the other end, just how fearful he was of this man following him...which is why I believe that was TM screams for help...he had a gun held to his chest...

The autopsy will hold a treasure trove of information...which I believe the SP had to come to her conclusion of a 2nd degree murder took place this fateful night..the trajectory of that bullet will be the first clue, injuries to TM's hands, if any...

Most are also forgetting, TM could be the one to use the SYG defense, for there's enough evidence to show it was GZ who provoked this entire scenario, he disregarded the do not follow the person..was in pursuit of a 'criminal' and his excited utterances, these A&&holes always get away and the 'phucking punks'....show his mentality at that time...:maddening:
 
Not caught up, so hopefully this has not yet been posted. This is an excellent article:

Here is small portion. I would recommend everyone read it.



So, for example, one of these so-called experts used a technique called "biometric voice analysis" to compare Zimmerman's voice, recorded when he was calmly speaking to police dispatchers shortly before the shooting, and the screaming voice on the 911 tape. This expert found a 48 percent match between the voices, concluding "with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman." First off, what is biometric voice analysis? Is it similar or different from voice identification through voice spectrography, commonly called a "voiceprint," which has been studied for years but which most courts have not admitted into evidence because it lacks scientific reliability and acceptability. Another so-called expert gave the media his "strong opinion" that the voice was Trayvon Martin's "without a doubt." What was the basis for this expert's opinion? "The tone of the voice is a giveaway," he said. "That's a young man's voice." This from an expert?

Some of the opinions by voice experts raise similar concerns. For example, whereas fingerprint and DNA evidence have unique and distinguishable characteristics, there does not appear to be any scientific basis for claiming, as one of the above voice experts did, that each individual's voice is unique. And anyway, there are so many marked differences that may occur among various groups of talkers that giving an opinion "to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty" is blatantly misleading. Even using terms like "probable" or "inconclusive" would be problematic, but a much more accurate opinion. Also, comparing a speaker's voice in a calm state and an emotional state, as one of the voice experts did, makes any informed comparison even more hazardous. Finally, published studies of voice identification under experimental conditions show very high rates of error. Indeed, a report by the National Academy of Sciences on forensic voice identification concluded that the scientific basis for making reliable voice identifications is weak. The FBI, as a result of the report, apparently does not use forensic voice analysis for courtroom evidence, although as with polygraph evidence, it continues to use it for investigative purposes.
If George Zimmerman is brought to trial, the voice of the person screaming probably will be a major issue. There likely will be contradictory proof of whose voice it is. Such proof can readily be admitted from persons who are familiar with that person's voice. But such proof should not be admitted based on the opinion of a forensics expert. It's just not reliable.
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bennett-l-gershman/george-zimmerman-screaming_b_1468761.html
 
LiveLaughLuv said:
GZ provoked this entire 'assault', he didn't say there was a fight, did he but he surely wants LE to believe he was in a life or death situation even though he had a loaded weapon...I believe being a criminal justice major, he knew the right words to utter to have this all go away...but he didn't count on a few things..

Did he not realize his entire converstation was being recorded?
He wasn't aware that TM was on the phone and informed the person on the other end, just how fearful he was of this man following him...which is why I believe that was TM screams for help...he had a gun held to his chest...

The autopsy will hold a treasure trove of information...which I believe the SP had to come to her conclusion of a 2nd degree murder took place this fateful night..the trajectory of that bullet will be the first clue, injuries to TM's hands, if any...

Most are also forgetting, TM could be the one to use the SYG defense, for there's enough evidence to show it was GZ who provoked this entire scenario, he disregarded the do not follow the person..was in pursuit of a 'criminal' and his excited utterances, these A&&holes always get away and the 'phucking punks'....show his mentality at that time...:maddening:
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776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.
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This argument is beating a dead hypothetical and is seen thrown about on nearly a daily basis, but if someone following you is reason to believe that the bolded applies then the next time I go to the mall and someone follows me around the corner I'm just going to take out my pistol and start firing. I believe you are meaning to say he had the right to defend himself, but then you would still need to argue that Zimmerman confronted him and not the other way around.
 
AJ Noiter said:
This argument is beating a dead hypothetical and is seen thrown about on nearly a daily basis, but if someone following you is reason to believe that the bolded applies then the next time I go to the mall and someone follows me around the corner I'm just going to take out my pistol and start firing. I believe you are meaning to say he had the right to defend himself, but then you would still need to argue that Zimmerman confronted him and not the other way around.
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BBM

Yes, I did mean TM had a right to self defense...

GZ should have stayed in his vehicle, so in his not doing that, he provoked this entire situation...he has no right to ask a stranger what they are doing there, is my belief..He's not LE, didn't ID himself first to TM, the easiest way to avoid this confrontation was to stay in his vehicle and let LE handle it. He did his civic duty and called in a suspicion but I believe he took it too far, due to his mentality..

I can't get away from GZ's mentality, it's the driving force behind his actions...
 
LiveLaughLuv said:
BBM

Yes, I did mean TM had a right to self defense...

GZ should have stayed in his vehicle, so in his not doing that, he provoked this entire situation...he has no right to ask a stranger what they are doing there, is my belief..He's not LE, didn't ID himself first to TM, the easiest way to avoid this confrontation was to stay in his vehicle and let LE handle it. He did his civic duty and called in a suspicion but I believe he took it too far, due to his mentality..

I can't get away from GZ's mentality, it's the driving force behind his actions...
Click to expand...

You can "should've" this to death, and so can everyone else. Mr. Martin should have asked for directions if he were as lost as people make claim, and Mr. Zimmerman was there to ask if he needed to. Had that happened this whole situation would have been avoided. I believe the first amendment protects his right to ask anyone anything he wants, and whomever he should ask a question has the right to ignore his inquiry. There is no law stating someone must identify before asking a question. I contend the easiest way to avoid the whole situation lies in my second sentence.

Are you a licensed psychoanalyst by chance?
 
Just curious, how many bashes of the head against cement does it take to turn one into a vegetable? I certainly wouldn't want to take the risk that one more bash might do it.


suzihawk said:
BBBM

Was this before or after GZ's head was repeatedly bashed against the cement nearly resulting in him being a vegetable for the rest of his life?
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LambChop said:
I always have felt GZ was trying to keep TM from getting away, even while they were on the ground and that is why TM had little or no injuries to his hands. If TM were punching GZ in the nose and then covered his mouth and/or banging GZ's head onto the cement, TM would have had large amounts of blood on his hands. GZ had no hair so TM would have had to hold onto GZ's head to control the banging which would have caused some type of scraping or bruising of TM's hands when they also hit the sidewalk. I believe the cries are from TM because GZ was holding onto him even though he was struggling to get away and once TM was able to get part way up I believe it freed up the gun and GZ shot him.

I really think the trajectory will show TM was trying to get up and away from GZ and that is why the charges are 2nd degree. jmo
Click to expand...

I believe the cries were rage from Tm as he pounded GZ head to the ground and was attacking him.
 
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