Case Summary

Richard, thank you for your brief bio. I just wanted to tell you that you are one of my favorite poster's on WS's. Any time I log on and see a thread that has been started or updated by you I immediately go there. Thank you for all of your time and research on this case, it's one I can't let go of as well.

It has now been 35 years since the Lyon sisters, Sheila and Kate disappeared. I wanted to bump this thread up and mention that In writing it, I used a number of sources.

Some "facts" could be off a bit. For instance, most sources state that the girls' brother Jay saw them near the Easter Bunny. One stated that he saw them eating pizza at the Orange Bowl, but that is not confirmed by other accounts.

Some recountings of the story make statements like, several other children were also seen talking to the man with the tape recorder. As best I can determine the eyewitness, "Jimmy" claimed that he only saw the man talking to Sheila and Kate Lyon. This was confirmed by his friend who accompanied him that day to the mall.

No other witnesses could be found who claimed to have seen the Tape Recorder Mat on THAT DAY. Other witnesses claimed to have seen someone with a tape recorder on OTHER DAYS at Wheaton Plaza and at other malls.

There was a boy who stated early in the investigation that he saw the girls headed toward the mall at about "7:30" Police soon discounted his story because they felt that this could not fit in with other known facts in the case. Had he been misquoted and did he actually say "11:30"?

The alleged sighting of the girls "on Drumm, near Devon" was made by a boy described only as "Over 15" by police. He claimed to have been in a car with another boy driving when he saw and recognized Sheila and Kate. walking west on Drumm, traveling in the direction of their home. He actually came forward around 28 March, but his statement was not released to the Press for two weeks. Later police felt that the delay in the report could have rendered it "questionable". In 2005, however, a man then in his 80's who lived on the corner of Drumm and Devon claimed that he, too, had seen the girls that day.

These photo's that look like Sheila Lyon were found by police in serial killer Rodney Alcala's storage unit

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-alcala-photo-gallery,0,2466584.photogallery

Bumping this thread up for the 36th anniversary of Sheila and Kate's disappearance. Sometimes it is good to review the summary.

I would like to make a correction to the summary which has just come to my attention. I refer to a place along the girls' walk home as the intersection of Drumm and Devon. The name of that road is actually Devin Place.

Eyewitnesses on 25 March 1975

There were probably over a thousand customers, employees, and vendors at Wheaton Plaza on Tuesday, 25 March 1975. Accounts of that day say that the place was packed and that people were waiting in line at clothing store dressing rooms. Schools were out for the week and there was an Easter Bunny character to attract kids and their parents.

It is pretty well established that Sheila and Kate Lyon walked to Wheaton Plaza between 11 and 11:30 that morning and that they were seen by at least a dozen "known" people that day, both inside and outside the mall. That is, newspaper reports have identified or mentioned at least 12 individuals out of the thousands who were at the mall that day, and out of the people who lived in at least 40 houses they had passed on their way to and from the Mall.

As pointed out in some previous posts, here are those eyewitnesses who came forward. They are not listed in any particular order because times of sighting were only estimates at best. I number them only for reference/discussion purposes.

1. Mrs. Sarah M. Biosca, age 67 in 1975, a retired seamstress who noticed them at Beckers Leather Goods store, at about 11:45 AM. She recognized them and told a story of how they were looking at a wallet.

(Note: Mrs. Biosca died in 2003 at the age of 95.)

2. Brian McAbee, 18, a clerk at Up Against The Wall, a clothing store featuring jeans and shirts,who says he saw them a few minutes after they had been in Beckers.

3. "Jimmy", age 13, who knew Sheila from school, saw them near a planter by the Orange Bowl Pizza take out, "around 1 or 2 PM" talking to a man with a tape recorder.

4. Unnamed Male Friend of "Jimmy", age 13, who also saw the girls talking to TRM near the Orange Bowl.

5. The Tape Recorder Man (TRM), estimated age 50-60, seen talking with the girls by "Jimmy" and friend near the Orange Bowl.

6. Jay Lyon, age 13, brother of the girls, who saw them at Mall Center near the Easter Bunny Display around 1PM.

7. Another boy (Unnamed), age 13, who stated that he saw Sheila Lyon near the Easter Bunny listening to children. He recognized her from school.

8. The Easter Bunny (name, age, and sex unknown) also saw Sheila, but was never interviewed by press.

9. David Reed, age 12, who knew both girls from having seen them at the community swimming pool, the previous summer, and who attended school with them, saw them near Drumm and Faulkner walking toward the mall about 7:30 (PM?). He made his statement within 24 hours of their disappearance, but his time estimate was considered to be so far off from other accounts, that police disregarded his story.

(Note: In 2010, a poster on another website described himself as the neighborhood boy who spoke briefly with Sheila and Katherine on their way home from the mall. He says that he had been in the same grade as Sheila at Newport Middle School and knew both girls from having seen them the previous summer at Kenmont Swimming Pool. He claimed that as an adult he later lived in the same neighborhood and could point out the spot where he saw the girls.)

10. Boy (Unnamed) age "Over 15" claimed to have seen the girls walking down Drumm, near Devin between 2:30 and 3:00 PM, while he and a male friend were riding in a car. Claimed he knew Sheila from school. His report was made on or shortly after 28 March 1975 because he claimed that since he had heard that the girls were seen around 7:30 PM (David Reed's reported sighting), he didn't think his information was important, but that when news media reported that police doubted David's time, he decided to come forward.

11. Boy (Unnamed) probably between 16 and 18, Driver of the car in which "Over 15" was riding, corroborated the 2:30 - 3:00 PM sighting, but claimed that he did not know the girls personally.

12. James Mann, age 50 in 1975, lived in a house on the corner of Drumm and Devin. Claimed (in a 2005 interview) to have seen and waived at the girls as they walked past his house on their way home.

Note that with the exception of Mrs. Biosca and possibly the Easter Bunny, all persons who claimed to have seen Sheila and Katherine were MALES, most of them adolescent boys. The only male eyewitnesses who were older, were Mr. Mann who only came forward 30 years after the girls' disappearance, and the Tape Recorder Man who has yet to come forward.

Note also that although the press identified Jay Lyon and David Reed as having seen the girls, five other boys were not named.

Two other witnesses who significantly DID NOT see Sheila or Kate that day were Melanie Ganas, Kate's 10 year-old girl friend and neighbor whom Kate was going to call when she got home at 3PM - and Mrs. Kuester, whom Kate had promised to visit that afternoon so that she could see her new baby. The fact that Katherine did NOT call or visit either of these two, is a clear indication that she never made it home that day.

Richard said:

Eyewitnesses on 25 March 1975

There were probably over a thousand customers, employees, and vendors at Wheaton Plaza on Tuesday, 25 March 1975. Accounts of that day say that the place was packed and that people were waiting in line at clothing store dressing rooms. Schools were out for the week and there was an Easter Bunny character to attract kids and their parents.

It is pretty well established that Sheila and Kate Lyon walked to Wheaton Plaza between 11 and 11:30 that morning and that they were seen by at least a dozen "known" people that day, both inside and outside the mall. That is, newspaper reports have identified or mentioned at least 12 individuals out of the thousands who were at the mall that day, and out of the people who lived in at least 40 houses they had passed on their way to and from the Mall.

As pointed out in some previous posts, here are those eyewitnesses who came forward. They are not listed in any particular order because times of sighting were only estimates at best. I number them only for reference/discussion purposes.

1. Mrs. Sarah M. Biosca, age 67 in 1975, a retired seamstress who noticed them at Beckers Leather Goods store, at about 11:45 AM. She recognized them and told a story of how they were looking at a wallet.

(Note: Mrs. Biosca died in 2003 at the age of 95.)

2. Brian McAbee, 18, a clerk at Up Against The Wall, a clothing store featuring jeans and shirts,who says he saw them a few minutes after they had been in Beckers.

3. "Jimmy", age 13, who knew Sheila from school, saw them near a planter by the Orange Bowl Pizza take out, "around 1 or 2 PM" talking to a man with a tape recorder.

4. Unnamed Male Friend of "Jimmy", age 13, who also saw the girls talking to TRM near the Orange Bowl.

5. The Tape Recorder Man (TRM), estimated age 50-60, seen talking with the girls by "Jimmy" and friend near the Orange Bowl.

6. Jay Lyon, age 13, brother of the girls, who saw them at Mall Center near the Easter Bunny Display around 1PM.

7. Another boy (Unnamed), age 13, who stated that he saw Sheila Lyon near the Easter Bunny listening to children. He recognized her from school.

8. The Easter Bunny (name, age, and sex unknown) also saw Sheila, but was never interviewed by press.

9. David Reed, age 12, who knew both girls from having seen them at the community swimming pool, the previous summer, and who attended school with them, saw them near Drumm and Faulkner walking toward the mall about 7:30 (PM?). He made his statement within 24 hours of their disappearance, but his time estimate was considered to be so far off from other accounts, that police disregarded his story.

(Note: In 2010, a poster on another website described himself as the neighborhood boy who spoke briefly with Sheila and Katherine on their way home from the mall. He says that he had been in the same grade as Sheila at Newport Middle School and knew both girls from having seen them the previous summer at Kenmont Swimming Pool. He claimed that as an adult he later lived in the same neighborhood and could point out the spot where he saw the girls.)

10. Boy (Unnamed) age "Over 15" claimed to have seen the girls walking down Drumm, near Devin between 2:30 and 3:00 PM, while he and a male friend were riding in a car. Claimed he knew Sheila from school. His report was made on or shortly after 28 March 1975 because he claimed that since he had heard that the girls were seen around 7:30 PM (David Reed's reported sighting), he didn't think his information was important, but that when news media reported that police doubted David's time, he decided to come forward.

11. Boy (Unnamed) probably between 16 and 18, Driver of the car in which "Over 15" was riding, corroborated the 2:30 - 3:00 PM sighting, but claimed that he did not know the girls personally.

12. James Mann, age 50 in 1975, lived in a house on the corner of Drumm and Devin. Claimed (in a 2005 interview) to have seen and waived at the girls as they walked past his house on their way home.

Note that with the exception of Mrs. Biosca and possibly the Easter Bunny, all persons who claimed to have seen Sheila and Katherine were MALES, most of them adolescent boys. The only male eyewitnesses who were older, were Mr. Mann who only came forward 30 years after the girls' disappearance, and the Tape Recorder Man who has yet to come forward.

Note also that although the press identified Jay Lyon and David Reed as having seen the girls, five other boys were not named.

Two other witnesses who significantly DID NOT see Sheila or Kate that day were Melanie Ganas, Kate's 10 year-old girl friend and neighbor whom Kate was going to call when she got home at 3PM - and Mrs. Kuester, whom Kate had promised to visit that afternoon so that she could see her new baby. The fact that Katherine did NOT call or visit either of these two, is a clear indication that she never made it home that day.

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I wonder,though, if the sisters did get to their house, and just stopped in for a brief time.With the intention of returning later on that afternoon.And then they went back out...somewhere. Given that it was about a 15 minute walk, and they were seen going in the direction of their house at around 2 :30pm, one would believe that this would have had them at their house at around 3pm ... Mr.Lyon would probably have just missed them, if this was the case.

Otherwise, one is left to believe that they were abducted from a quiet suburban area in the middle of the day. And no one saw or heard anything ? The houses seem very close together for this to be the case ... Just some thoughts...

liz b. said:

I wonder,though, if the sisters did get to their house, and just stopped in for a brief time.With the intention of returning later on that afternoon.And then they went back out...somewhere. Given that it was about a 15 minute walk, and they were seen going in the direction of their house at around 2 :30pm, one would believe that this would have had them at their house at around 3pm ... Mr.Lyon would probably have just missed them, if this was the case.

Otherwise, one is left to believe that they were abducted from a quiet suburban area in the middle of the day. And no one saw or heard anything ? The houses seem very close together for this to be the case ... Just some thoughts...

Click to expand...

It is, by my own measurement, a fifteen minute walk (at a brisk pace without pausing) from the old Wards back door of Wheaton Plaza to the Lyon house on Plyers Mill Road.

However, you cannot accurately pinpoint a time when the girls might have arrived home based on the possible sighting of them at "Drumm near Devin". The sighting was somewhat questionable (by police) at the time and later. And the time of the sighting was only a rough estimate by two teenaged boys - given several days after the event.

It was reported that they saw the girls walking down Drumm some time between 2:30 and 3:00PM that afternoon. Let's assume for the sake of discussion that it was a true and accurate sighting... From that point, assuming that they continued walking without delay or detour, it probably would have been another 10 minutes to their home. This would give them an estimated time of arrival (ETA) of between 2:40 and 3:10 PM.

There is no evidence, however, that they ever reached home. Certain indications, such as leaving a purchase or receipt at home, changing clothes from what they had been wearing, making a phone call, leaving a note, etc were just not there.

Other questions remain unanswered - such as:
Exactly who (if anyone) was home at that time?
Was the door left unlocked or did they have a key?
Did anyone see them there?

You are correct, then, in stating that "one is left to believe that they were abducted from a quiet suburban area in the middle of the day."

You are also very correct in stating that the houses along the girls supposed route were (and are) very close together. Also, there were no big gaps or vacant lots between those houses (then or now).

That is - house spacing is very close UNTIL you reach the corner of Drumm and McComas. At that point (then and now) Drumm only continues for a short distance before being blocked off to Vehicle traffic for a few hundred feet. Only pedestrian traffic can get through. Drumm then resumes to vehicle traffic, but only from Plyers Mill Road. To get from one end of the blocked off area of Drumm to the other would involve a LOT of driving around on neighborhood roads and the possibility of getting lost or turned around is high.

Also at that same corner of Drumm and McComas was where a foot path through a wooded area began, and that foot path would have taken them diagonally to Jennings Road, emerging from the woods very near their own house. (Note: that foot path is no longer in existance, and there are now homes and fences where that wood lot used to be.)

So... If a perpetrator USING a VEHICLE was going to abduct the girls - in that suburban neighborhood - he would have had to do so at one of only three places:

1. On Drumm Ave (between Devin and McComas) in front of a large number of closely spaced houses and potential eyewitnesses.

2. At the corner of Drumm and McComas where there are fewer houses, but before the girls entered a walking only area.

3. On Jennings Rd, in sight of a number of closely spaced houses and within a few hundred feet of their own home. (and this only after having driven around in a maze of winding roads, and relying on perfect timing and pure luck).

The first scenario above would have to occur within only a few minutes of three eyewitnesses (two in a car and one in his house) having seen the girls. A potential abductor in a vehicle would have been driving behind the two boys who reported seeing them. Such a person would have had to wait for the boys' car to exit the area, and that would have meant having to drive to McComas before making his move.

The second scenario above, while still risky, would have been the best choke point to intercept or wait for the girls - he wouldn't have to follow behind them. This spot provided a quick escape route either with or without the girls in his vehicle. Access to this corner was available without driving down Drumm, and he could position his vehicle in any desired direction and position.

If he did not know exactly where the girls lived, he would not know exactly which direction or route they would have traveled from this intersection, and the visibility from houses was limited here. Therefor, waiting at Drumm and McComas, would have allowed him an opportunity to abduct the girls, NO MATTER which route they intended to travel.

On the other, hand, IF HE DID KNOW where they lived, he would know that at this point, he could offer them a viable story or enticement into his vehicle - because he knew that they were still some distance from their home AND that this WAS the best possible site to attempt the abduction.

The third scenario above would only have been possible if the abductor KNEW girls and exactly where they lived, and if he knew not only the maze of roads - but also the foot path and where it began and emerged from the woods. He would have to have been highly skilled in the art of road rally calculation to have achieved success in Controlled Time of Arrival.

He would also have to be willing to take a tremendous risk of being seen and recognized by anyone on Jennings Road - including possibly the girls family members. In short, he would have to have been highly skilled and fearless, and ultimately very, very LUCKY to have pulled off an abduction on Jennings Road. This third scenario, therefor, is most unlikely.

In conclusion, I believe that the girls were in fact abducted in broad daylight that afternoon. If not in the Wheaton Plaza parking lot, then at the corner of Drumm and McComas.

I have re-read my newspaper clipping file about this case and I find that the Washington Post reported that the two boys in the car driving west on Drumm, who stated that they saw Sheila and Kate walking down the roadway on Drumm, near Devin, estimated that they had seen them between 2:30PM and 3:30PM.

Again, this was an estimate given on or about the 28th of March, some three days after the girls went missing.

Richard...maybe you can help me understand your line of reasoning. This is a quote by you from post#98 on the Potential Suspects thread.

"Over Fifteen" stated that he knew Sheila from school. He further stated that the first reports stated that the girls had been sighted at around 7pm and that he therefore did not report his sighting immediately, because he did not think it significant.

On 27 or 28 March 1975, Police stated in the press that they felt an earlier report (by another boy) was inaccurate or mistaken. That was when "Over Fifteen" came forward with his story. Police began to consider this new report by "Over Fifteen" to be a possibility, and some stories state that the Sighting at Drumm and Devon was the last known/confirmed sighting of the girls. Police, however did not release information on "Over Fifteen's" statement until two weeks later.



You have no trouble believing the sighting by "Jimmy".....yet you always try to discount the "Over 15" sighting. You said....."Again, this was an estimate given on or about the 28th of March, some three days after the girls went missing."

You seem to be implying that the sighting given by "Over 15" can't possibly be real because....as you've said......it's just an "estimate" and was given...."some three days after the girls went missing." How is it that this statement....given by "Jimmy" is somehow more realistic and accurate?

"It was about 1 or 2 o'clock." Jimmy related. "I was out with a friend.

Is that not an "estimate" of the time "Jimmy" claims to have seen the girls? Why do you have a problem with "Over 15" coming forward 3 days after the girls went missing...but not with "Jimmy" coming forwrd 3 days later?

"Over 15" had a logical reason for waiting 3 days. When he heard about the 7:00 sighting of the girls,he assumed that his didn't matter ....the 7:00 sighting would have been the last time the girls were seen.

"Jimmy" had NO logical reason for waiting. Taken from his interview....

Jimmy's mother said that right after the news came out that the Lyon girls were missing, her son told her he had seen them at the plaza. But it wasn't until Friday that he mentioned anything about the man with a tape recorder, she said.


There is no way a kid as old as "Jimmy" could see these girls talking to a strange man...then they go missing and the only thing he says is that he saw them that day. There is no way a mother wouldn't ask exactly what he saw the girls doing. Yet...."Jimmy" just tells his mom that he saw them at the mall...end of story....no big deal.....UNTIL Friday.....by Friday he had a sensational story to tell and only "Jimmy" and his friend saw it.

Motherof5,

Regarding the "Over 15" sighting. I have NEVER stated that his sighting "couldn't possibly have been real", nor have I ever personally discounted his story. I have always related it as closely as possible to newspaper accounts and to how MCP case officers have stated it to me.

MCP stated about the sighting of "Over 15" and his friend that they were "95 per cent sure that the latest witness saw the girls." This was in a press conference given on Wednesday, 16 April 1975 and reported the next day in the Washington Post.

His statement that it was between 2:30 and 3:30 PM when he saw the girls was an estimate, and one which seemed to police to fit in with the timeline they were constructing from the statements of other eyewitnesses. "Over 15" was also specific about which direction he was traveling (west on Drumm) and that the girls were walking in the same direction "down the roadway" on Drumm, near Devin.

Although police at the time considered "Over 15's" story credible and accurate, one case officer in the late 1990's told me that he had doubts about it.

"Jimmy" made a significant statement about the girls as well, saying that he had seen them, and then when he elaborated his sighting by saying that he had seen them "talking to a reporter". His time frame for this was also an estimate of "between 1:00 and 2:00 PM. He was also specific about where he saw them and in what direction the girls went immediately afterward.

Police considered "Jimmy" a reliable witness and gave his story full consideration, initially deeming it an important clue. By the end of a month, however, they no longer published the TRM sketch. Of course, because of the media blitz, TRM was a big part of the story, but police soon began to say things like, the man with the tape recorder might have been there for some legitimate purpose, and that he was only wanted for questioning. Of course, he never came forward, and he has never been positively identified.

Police were quick to discount publicly David Reed's reported sighting of the girls on Faulkner at 7:30PM. This was stated by them on 27 or 28 March and so reported in the 28 March issue of the Washington Post. I have always questioned why they would so quickly discount David's story, and would really like to see their origional notes and his origional statement on this reported sighting.

While there was a delay of two or three days by both "Over 15" and "Jimmy" in talking to the police, I believe that it was probably for similar reasons on the part of both boys: They initially didn't think that their information was important.

The statements by both "Over 15" and "Jimmy" were corroborated in each case by a second boy.

Both eyewitnesses stated that they personally knew Sheila from school, so in each case it was a positive identification, rather than a possible case of mistaken identity.

I would be quick to mention that David Reed also knew both girls personally. I have offered my own opinion in the past that his sighting was also a real event, but wonder if his time estimate was misquoted or misunderstood. Besides the girls' brother Jay, David was perhaps the first eyewitness to come forward - certainly before either "Jimmy" or "Over 15".

I often wonder how many other eyewitnesses that day refrained from talking to police for the reason that they did not think their information important - or because they didn't want to get involved. Also, how many people DID come forward in later days, only to have their information disregarded, overlooked, or less valued because it was late? We only know what the police released to the press and what subsequently got reported.

A possible reason for some delays in witnesses coming forward was that the story actually took a full day to get into the papers and TV, and as the days went along, it became THE top story in the news. As news stories bemoaned the lack of clues and readers began to get caught up in the sad loss of the two girls, they began to rack their brains for any kind of information that might be of assistance.

Consequently, the police were soon deluged with all kinds of callers, clues, stories, etc. And they were having to sort through them all for what they considered real and viable clues. With each new part of the story reported, more calls came in.

As I have pointed out in a previous post, MOST of the eyewitnesses who came forward were adolescent boys. One has to take that into consideration when reading their accounts. How many of them had a watch? And how did they arrive at their time estimates?

We have to view this case through a number of filters, unfortunately. The story we know is the one which the Police and family have given to the press, and that information came from a number of different sources. News stories in later years relied heavily on earlier news stories and even On-line summaries, like the ones that I have written. And I would be quick to state that my summaries have contained inaccuracies and confusing parts. If we could go to the origional source documents - that is the police files themselves - we might be able to make more sense of things.

In considering this case today, we do have the benefit of 36 years of hindsight and experience. Most of the "possible suspects" discussed in these threads were not known to police in 1975. But time is, in itself, a filter. Memories fade and stories sometimes might change over time. An adolescent boy of 1975 would be a middle aged man today, and he certainly would have a different perspective on his experience now.

While the police stated that the girls' dissappearance was very unique at the time, the internet and history have shown that there are many similarities in other cases. Some of those cases have been solved, and hopefully the Lyon Sisters case will some day be solved as well.

Let me be clear. You haven't actually "stated" that the "Over 15" sighting isn't credible...but you "imply" that it isn't when you make comments such as this one from the above post #36.

The sighting was somewhat questionable (by police) at the time and later. And the time of the sighting was only a rough estimate by two teenaged boys - given several days after the event.

Then again in post #37

Again, this was an estimate given on or about the 28th of March, some three days after the girls went missing.

You said that the police at the time and later found this sighting to be questionable...but just today you said

MCP stated about the sighting of "Over 15" and his friend that they were "95 per cent sure that the latest witness saw the girls." This was in a press conference given on Wednesday, 16 April 1975 and reported the next day in the Washington Post.

I'm just saying that you "imply" that the "Over 15" sighting isn't credible and keep pointing out that this sighting came from 2 teenage boys days after the fact. But when you talk about "Jimmy" and his friend,also 2 teenage boys who came forward days after the fact, you seem to see it as something far more credible than the "Over 15" story.

To quote you...

"Jimmy" made a significant statement about the girls as well, saying that he had seen them, and then when he elaborated his sighting by saying that he had seen them "talking to a reporter". His time frame for this was also an estimate of "between 1:00 and 2:00 PM. He was also specific about where he saw them and in what direction the girls went immediately afterward.

"Over 15" was specific about where he saw them too and said they were headed toward their house. MCP said that would have been the girls' most direct route.

It just "seems" as though you are very biased.

My comments in posts 36 and 37 were not made to in any way imply that the "Over 15" story is not true or that it couldn't possibly happen. I was replying to the previous post which discussed a scenario involving a specific possible arrival time of the girls at their home on the afternoon of 25 March 1975.

What I meant in my comments was that you cannot be very precise in such a calculation when the Drumm/Devin sighting time is only a rough estimate within an hour-long window.

In my previous post, I compare both Jimmy's information with that of "Over 15" and you will find that both contain similar bits of information:

1. Positive identification of the girls.
2. And estimated time of within one hour.
3. What the girls were doing.
4. A geographic location.
5. A direction of movement.

Similarities in statements:

1. Both statements were made about the same time following the girls' disappearance.
2. Both eyewitnesses were teen-aged boys
3. Both statements were corroborated by other teen-aged boys.

I have always tried to be as straight forward as possible in what I say, but I guess that one can "infer" a different meaning at times. Sometimes in relating the story, the wording used can add unintentional meaning.

Here is an example, using a quote from your post:

"Over 15" was specific about where he saw them too and said they were headed toward their house. MCP said that would have been the girls' most direct route. [unquote]

Actually, "Over 15" was quoted in the press as specifically stating that the girls were alone and "just walking normally along the roadway". The girls were headed west on Drumm near Devin between 2:30 and 3:30PM.

He did NOT say that the girls were headed toward their house, and in fact, he might not have known where they lived. Police did say in the same briefing that the sighting was within a half mile of the girls' home.

Of course, we know that their observed location and direction of travel would have indicated that they were headed in the direction of their house, but that is a conclusion of the reader, not a direct quote of the eyewitness or of the news report.

Some of what I have written on this case are direct quotes of eyewitnesses, of police, or of newspaper stories. But I also write from memory and sometimes tend to interpret events and information in my own words. An example would be (again quoting from your post):

MCP stated about the sighting of "Over 15" and his friend that they were "95 per cent sure that the latest witness saw the girls." (the quotation marks indicate exactly what MCP stated in their press briefing).

The sighting was somewhat questionable (by police) at the time and later. My words. Note that I consider "95 percent sure" to be somewhat questionable at the time.

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My apologies...you're right...it wasn't "Over 15" who said that the girls were heading towards their house. It was you who made that comment.

From your post #27 of this thread.

Between 2:30 PM and 3:30 PM
- Another boy later reported seeing them walking west (toward home) on Drumm Avenue near Devon Street. Drumm Avenue, a residential street, was part of the most direct route from Wheaton Plaza to their home.

This is another example of how,in my opinion, you seem to discredit or not report fairly on the "Over 15" sighting.

Taken from the Potential Suspects thread...your post #98

The names of the two boys in the car have never been released to the press or public. They should be considered persons of interest in this case. They should be located and questioned again about the events that they claimed to have witnessed. There are several possibilities regarding their story:

1. It is possible that they told the truth and that the girls actually were at Drumm and Devon heading west that afternoon. If so, it is significant in nailing down more accurately the time and location of their abduction. It would be interesting to study their full statements to ascertain exactly what they said.

2. It is also possible that they were mistaken and that it was two other girls who were seen that day. Knowing whether or not the boys correctly described the girls clothing might verify that.

3. Police have stated that it is possible that the boys had seen the girls on a different day, and say that because of the length of time between the sighting and the news reports (about two weeks), the story cannot be considered accurate or reliable. Actually the boys came forward on or about 28 March to police, but their story was not made public right away. The statements by the boys were made only about three days after the girls disappeared.

4. The possibility also exists that these guys were lying or making the story up for whatever reason.

5. Another possibility, not previously considered, is that these boys could have played a much greater part in the girls' disappearance.

Consider the last point for a moment. These boys claimed to have been driving a vehicle down the same residential streets that the girls were walking, at the same time, and they claim to have not only seen, but to have recognized the girls. Actually "Over Fifteen" claimed to have known Sheila Lyon, while the older boy (the driver) stated that he did NOT know the girls, but he confirmed the rest of the "Over Fifteen" story.

It has been suggested or theorized that perhaps the girls knew their abductor. Could it be that these boys actually picked the girls up and took them somewhere? Did police consider this and was the car driven by the boys gone over? How thoroughly were the boys questioned?

If these boys were telling the truth about seeing the girls and if they did not pick them up, there would have only been a short window of opportunity for someone else to have abducted them. Does their statement mention any other vehicles or persons in the area at the same time as the sighting?

When was the last time investigators spoke with these two?

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Last edited by Richard; 11-19-2009 at 10:39 AM. Reason: wording


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#99 11-20-2009, 06:57 PM
Motherof5
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In the above post...you have...

Stated that it's possible that "Over 15" and friend could have seen the girls on a different day.(as stated by you above in #2...I realize that you aslo stated that LE said the same) The same could be said for "Jimmy" and friend. Why is it so hard to believe that "Over 15" saw them THAT day? "Over 15" knew Sheila...and yet you say that it's possible that "Over 15 saw 2 different girls that day.


I don't understand #3. Police say that "Over 15 could have seen the girls on a different day(as I've said...same could be said for "Jimmy")...but I don't understand this part..

because of the length of time between the sighting and the news reports (about two weeks), the story cannot be considered accurate or reliable

This reads as if you're saying that LE finds the "Over 15" story not reliable because of the 2 weeks between the sighting and it's being reported in the news...did I misunderstand?

You've said that...."The possibility also exists that these guys were lying or making the story up for whatever reason."........Again..the same could be said for "Jimmy and friend" but you don't mention that.

You've said that "Over 15" and friend should be considered person's of interest,that they could have "played a much greater part in the girls' disappearance"...... even posted a theory on how "Over 15" and friend could be involved.

It has been suggested or theorized that perhaps the girls knew their abductor. Could it be that these boys actually picked the girls up and took them somewhere? Did police consider this and was the car driven by the boys gone over? How thoroughly were the boys questioned?

"Over 15" has gone from being a witness to actually being involved in the abduction? How is that not trying to discredit "Over 15"? If we're looking at that angle.....why not make "Jimmy" a person of interest as well? "Jimmy" claims to have seen the girls too....did he help TRM to somehow abduct the girls? I don't believe that for a minute...just putting the same spin on it that you did.

I'm of the "taken by someone known to them" group....but I seriously doubt that "Over 15" and friend would abduct the girls and then go to police and report having seen them that day.


I guess we just agree to disagree. We believe different things took place that day and we don't agree on the same suspect... that's ok...different thoughts from different people are why we're all here. I just don't understand your thinking...but you can say the same about me.

The story of the Lyon sisters, as reported by police and the news media was a fast moving story with a lot of false leads and a lot of speculation, searching, and family agony.

"Jimmy" and his story of the Tape Recorder Man seen talking with Sheila and Kate was hailed by police and the media as a timely and strong clue in the girls' disappearance. It was the lead story for a while, and many other people called in to substantiate it by reporting other similar sightings of the strange man and his microphone at other area malls.

The "Over 15" boy's story of seeing the girls walking west on Drumm, on the other hand, did not appear in the papers until 17 April 1975. By that time, other events had taken place which kind of bypassed the story that the boy had related.

Among those events; there had been numerous reported sightings of the girls around the country and the story of the Tan Ford Station Wagon had gripped the Washington Metropolitan area. There was also a story about a ransom attempt. And then a Mass Murderer (Pearch) began a shooting spree right at Wheaton Plaza parking lot, which ended in a number of people wounded and killed.

I am not minimalizing the "Over 15" boy's information, simply saying that it did not make as big a splash in the press as some of the other stories of the day. And perhaps for that reason, "Over 15" was never interviewed by the media in the way that "Jimmy" was.

As a result, the only information that we have is what Montgomery County Police said about the "Over 15" report. I have typed up that news story and included it in the Thread on News Articles and Links.

Note in that article of Thursday 17 April 1975, that police claim they received the information from the boy (Over 15) the previous week and withheld it in order to verify it. If police were quoted correctly, this means that "Over 15" came forward with his story sometime between April 6th and April 12th, or between 12 and 18 days after the girls disappearance.

Note also that this news story states in two places that Police had dismissed or doubted another boy's story about seeing the girls at 7:30 PM. This would have been the David Reed sighting about which police had begun to express doubts as early as 27 or 28 March. The article mentions that it was this publicly expressed doubt that caused "Over 15" to come forward with his information.

Richard said:

12. James Mann, age 50 in 1975, lived in a house on the corner of Drumm and Devin. Claimed (in a 2005 interview) to have seen and waived at the girls as they walked past his house on their way home.

Click to expand...

James Mann (through internet search) passed away 1/3/2012.

cgoodwin22 said:

James Mann (through internet search) passed away 1/3/2012.

Click to expand...

Thank you for this information. He lived on the corner of Drumm and Devin in 1975 and was still living there in 2005 when he was interviewed by a reporter. Some time later, he moved to Georgia.

I was able to locate an obituary for Mr. Mann, which is linked below:


JAMES MARTIN MANN
On Tuesday, January 3, 2012 of Marietta, GA and formerly of Kensington, MD. Beloved husband of the late Doris M. Mann;....
Mr. Mann was employed as a mechanic for Jim Coleman Cadillac for over 50 years. ... Interment Parklawn Memorial Park.

www.COLLINSFUNERALHOME.com

LINK:

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/washingtonpost/obituary.aspx?n=james-m-mann&pid=155346593&fhid=6151

laughin said:

Bedford County search is part of open homicide investigation in Maryland

http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/lyn...n-taking-place-on-taylors-mountain-r/28083490

Click to expand...

They are searching for the Lyon sisters here in our neighborhood. I was there today, spoke to reporters and watched the search and rescue team go in and out of the woods.