Did JR tell us the Plan, #2 - RDI Only thread

Salem · Jan 26, 2014

Opening post as sent to me by Nom de Plume:

Nom de plume said:
A light bulb went on in my head and I wondered if we've been looking at some things from the wrong angle, and that's why they haven't made sense? I'm not saying I have the answer all figured out, but this is the first time I've been able to make sense of these things. I'm not saying that they had plans to dispose of her after calling 911, but I do think it's a possibility.

If they intended for LE to find her, why have her hidden so well? Why not put her right under that broken, open window, right next to that suitcase? That might have been a little more believable from an IDI perspective. "IDI is ready to stuff her in the suitcase & out the window they go, but he hears something and has to leave without her."

If PR blew the plan at the last second I could still see JR playing it out the same way as in the following scenario:

If they thought they could sneak her out of the house after calling 911, it would be pretty easy for JR (or so he possibly thought) to slide in that window (just like he described doing before), put her in JAR's suitcase, pop the suitcase out the window, then use "that" chair that he insisted was blocking the door to climb back out himself. Maybe he would have put her outside the window before leaving the house. I suppose there's even the possibility that he did try during his "unexplained absence." Her brand new shirt fibers were found on the duvet cover in the suitcase. Rigor and livor would both be set by then, so no evidence would indicate one way or the other. Maybe he picked her up, laid her in the open suitcase, and then realized even if he broke rigor (if he even knew he could) she still wouldn't fit in well. Could the book and blanket have been "undoing" items put in there for "her comfort"?

And again, I'm not saying that this was ever the plan, but I could easily see it having been just that. When you add up all the things JR kept harping on, which everyone presumes is his attempt to point to an intruder, they all fit nicely into this plan. The broken window & how he used it to get in, the chair blocking the door, him moving JAR's suitcase downstairs. Maybe he was letting some of his own plan slip out in little bits and pieces, and not trying to point to an IDI (or "insider") at all.

Lies usually have a grain of truth in them, and anyone that's read the Rs books knows, he gives away a lot of information about himself without even realizing it. But maybe that's JMO.

His window "story" was just down right strange. I never did understand the purpose of that "chair story", and it never made a bit of sense to me. He openly said he was the one to put the suitcase down there. (He knew he had to admit that because his prints would be on it. And yeah, I know, "But he lived there. They should be.") And why was he always in his underwear??? Climbing through the window in his underwear, reading the RN, on the floor of all places, in his underwear! :waitasec:

So did he really tell us what his plan was all along through his bizarre stories and "admissions"?

If you've made it this far, thank you for your patience with my rambling, wandering thoughts.
__________________

dazeerae · Jan 26, 2014

From the other thread, Zbob said:

This document from Komrik with the premeditation theory and the before Xmas morning photo of the RN placement has generated some discussion. My question is, doesn't it seem odd after all the books and all the other "sources" of information that this is the first time it seems to have come up (at least as far as I know)? Has anyone here heard this before?

Assuming this information on the photo is true, Komrik must have access to information not in the public record and this information would have to come from someone deep inside the investigation. Secondarily, I would think a photo ordered in advance of Xmas morning with this implied content would have been a serious piece of evidence that would have had the attention of LE and the DA's office.

Given the depth of detail in Komrik's document, it seems less likely to me that he would just make this up. If his document and this information was new (his document was from 2010 as I recall), a leap could be made that this was a new evidence leak as part of ongoing investigation activity. All of the above just doesn't seem to make sense to me, but much of this investigation is also the same. My key point is that much of this boards (and others) is about interpretation of information in various ways, but new and "smoking gun" information doesn't seem to show up much based on my experience reading content.

Thoughts?

Yes, I do think it's odd that Komrik's theory, if it holds any water, has not come up before. I think that it deserves further study. The presentation is very thorough, & well-researched, but a lot of Komrik's personal experience with Narcisistic Personality Disorder is discussed, & I believe that his experience has strongly clouded his perception of this case. That does not mean I think his theory is without merit. I continue to read it in chunks, and am interested in what others think of Kir Komrik's ideas.

dazeerae · Jan 26, 2014

Originally Posted by Nom de plume
A light bulb went on in my head and I wondered if we've been looking at some things from the wrong angle, and that's why they haven't made sense? I'm not saying I have the answer all figured out, but this is the first time I've been able to make sense of these things. I'm not saying that they had plans to dispose of her after calling 911, but I do think it's a possibility.

If they intended for LE to find her, why have her hidden so well? Why not put her right under that broken, open window, right next to that suitcase? That might have been a little more believable from an IDI perspective. "IDI is ready to stuff her in the suitcase & out the window they go, but he hears something and has to leave without her."

If PR blew the plan at the last second I could still see JR playing it out the same way as in the following scenario:

If they thought they could sneak her out of the house after calling 911, it would be pretty easy for JR (or so he possibly thought) to slide in that window (just like he described doing before), put her in JAR's suitcase, pop the suitcase out the window, then use "that" chair that he insisted was blocking the door to climb back out himself. Maybe he would have put her outside the window before leaving the house. I suppose there's even the possibility that he did try during his "unexplained absence." Her brand new shirt fibers were found on the duvet cover in the suitcase. Rigor and livor would both be set by then, so no evidence would indicate one way or the other. Maybe he picked her up, laid her in the open suitcase, and then realized even if he broke rigor (if he even knew he could) she still wouldn't fit in well. Could the book and blanket have been "undoing" items put in there for "her comfort"? This scenario seems possible, but why wait until after calling 911? The same neighbors who would see him leave in the middle of the night would be even more likely to notice him leaving in the morning.

And again, I'm not saying that this was ever the plan, but I could easily see it having been just that. When you add up all the things JR kept harping on, which everyone presumes is his attempt to point to an intruder, they all fit nicely into this plan. The broken window & how he used it to get in, the chair blocking the door, him moving JAR's suitcase downstairs. Maybe he was letting some of his own plan slip out in little bits and pieces, and not trying to point to an IDI (or "insider") at all.Do you mean that he was letting his plan slip out while trying to pin the crime on an intruder?

Lies usually have a grain of truth in them, and anyone that's read the Rs books knows, he gives away a lot of information about himself without even realizing it. But maybe that's JMO.

His window "story" was just down right strange. I never did understand the purpose of that "chair story", and it never made a bit of sense to me. He openly said he was the one to put the suitcase down there. (He knew he had to admit that because his prints would be on it. And yeah, I know, "But he lived there. They should be.") And why was he always in his underwear??? Climbing through the window in his underwear, reading the RN, on the floor of all places, in his underwear! Would someone be willing to refresh my memory on the chair story? I swear, early Alzheimer's is setting in. :/

So did he really tell us what his plan was all along through his bizarre stories and "admissions"?

If you've made it this far, thank you for your patience with my rambling, wandering thoughts.

See my response above in red.

Nom de plume · Jan 26, 2014

If they thought they could sneak her out of the house after calling 911, it would be pretty easy for JR (or so he possibly thought) to slide in that window (just like he described doing before), put her in JAR's suitcase, pop the suitcase out the window, then use "that" chair that he insisted was blocking the door to climb back out himself. Maybe he would have put her outside the window before leaving the house. I suppose there's even the possibility that he did try during his "unexplained absence." Her brand new shirt fibers were found on the duvet cover in the suitcase. Rigor and livor would both be set by then, so no evidence would indicate one way or the other. Maybe he picked her up, laid her in the open suitcase, and then realized even if he broke rigor (if he even knew he could) she still wouldn't fit in well. Could the book and blanket have been "undoing" items put in there for "her comfort"? This scenario seems possible, but why wait until after calling 911? The same neighbors who would see him leave in the middle of the night would be even more likely to notice him leaving in the morning.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant that he would take the suitcase and leave with LE there. In a later post I said that I think he might have had a fake SFF call set up to come in, but the person that was supposed to make it backed out. That would have given him the opportunity to leave with "an adequate sized attaché".

And again, I'm not saying that this was ever the plan, but I could easily see it having been just that. When you add up all the things JR kept harping on, which everyone presumes is his attempt to point to an intruder, they all fit nicely into this plan. The broken window & how he used it to get in, the chair blocking the door, him moving JAR's suitcase downstairs. Maybe he was letting some of his own plan slip out in little bits and pieces, and not trying to point to an IDI (or "insider") at all. Do you mean that he was letting his plan slip out while trying to pin the crime on an intruder?

Yes, exactly.

His window "story" was just down right strange. I never did understand the purpose of that "chair story", and it never made a bit of sense to me. He openly said he was the one to put the suitcase down there. (He knew he had to admit that because his prints would be on it. And yeah, I know, "But he lived there. They should be.") And why was he always in his underwear??? Climbing through the window in his underwear, reading the RN, on the floor of all places, in his underwear! Would someone be willing to refresh my memory on the chair story? I swear, early Alzheimer's is setting in. :/

I'll try, but I never really understood it myself. LOL French & FW were both in the basement that morning. Neither mentioned a chair blocking the door to the train room. JR did claim this later. So if he wasn't down there before them (yeah right), then how did the chair get there to block the door after the others were down there? It just didn't make sense. I don't think there was ever a chair blocking the door, but for some reason that chair was on his mind. I think it played some part in the crime and he knew it, or it was part of his plan to get her out, but I'm just not sure how. Another little "slip" IMO. Hope that makes sense.

Frigga · Jan 26, 2014

dazeerae~

Great post!

Do you mind sharing with me some of the things you think John showed about himself in his (or their) books? I have never been able to force myself to read one, but now I just may have to! TIA

Frigga · Jan 26, 2014

Nom de plume, I think you may be on to something! Please keep sharing. I do think people give themselves away- all the time- in the little things they say and do- especially in a circumstance such as this. Can't wait to hear what others think as well!

Venom · Jan 26, 2014

Nom de plume said:
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant that he would take the suitcase and leave with LE there. In a later post I said that I think he might have had a fake SFF call set up to come in, but the person that was supposed to make it backed out. That would have given him the opportunity to leave with "an adequate sized attaché".

Yes, exactly.

I'll try, but I never really understood it myself. LOL French & FW were both in the basement that morning. Neither mentioned a chair blocking the door to the train room. JR did claim this later. So if he wasn't down there before them (yeah right), then how did the chair get there to block the door after the others were down there? It just didn't make sense. I don't think there was ever a chair blocking the door, but for some reason that chair was on his mind. I think it played some part in the crime and he knew it, or it was part of his plan to get her out, but I'm just not sure how. Another little "slip" IMO. Hope that makes sense.

Could it be that JB was made to sit on the chair? Kir Komrik's theory has her maybe being duct taped at the ankles to a chair.

dazeerae · Jan 26, 2014

Nom de plume said:
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant that he would take the suitcase and leave with LE there. In a later post I said that I think he might have had a fake SFF call set up to come in, but the person that was supposed to make it backed out. That would have given him the opportunity to leave with "an adequate sized attaché".

Yes, exactly.

I'll try, but I never really understood it myself. LOL French & FW were both in the basement that morning. Neither mentioned a chair blocking the door to the train room. JR did claim this later. So if he wasn't down there before them (yeah right), then how did the chair get there to block the door after the others were down there? It just didn't make sense. I don't think there was ever a chair blocking the door, but for some reason that chair was on his mind. I think it played some part in the crime and he knew it, or it was part of his plan to get her out, but I'm just not sure how. Another little "slip" IMO. Hope that makes sense.

Ok, now I'm following you about the suitcase. The large suitcase would be used to transport JonBenet's body, & he would tell LE that it's the attaché case for ransom money. Interesting possibility!

I understand now about the chair. The chair was part of the crime or the staging & he brought it up even though FW & French had not noted the chair. It was somehow important to JR, & that may be one of his "tells."

I appreciate you taking the time to explain. I'm a very curious person who tends to ask a lot of questions. I'm afraid that puts some people off, but my desire to learn and understand is not something I can easily quell. Thanks for the information!

Venom · Jan 26, 2014

dazeerae said:
Ok, now I'm following you about the suitcase. The large suitcase would be used to transport JonBenet's body, & he would tell LE that it's the attaché case for ransom money. Interesting possibility!

I understand now about the chair. The chair was part of the crime or the staging & he brought it up even though FW & French had not noted the chair. It was somehow important to JR, & that may be one of his "tells."

I appreciate you taking the time to explain. I'm a very curious person who tends to ask a lot of questions. I'm afraid that puts some people off, but my desire to learn and understand is not something I can easily quell. Thanks for the information!

Is there any "protocol" for a kidnapping? Would LE just have taken his word that there was $118,000 in the case, or would they have supplied him with a case? I too tend to ask a lot of questions, lol.

Nom de plume · Jan 26, 2014

Sorry I wasn't more clear in the beginning. Sometimes I forget everyone else isn't able to "see" everything swirling around in my head. LOL

I'm not sure what the deal is with the chair, but his story about it blocking the door is obvious BS. While I tend not to buy into KK's theory all together, I do think the chair had something to do with the crime. Quite possibly she was made to sit in it, or was tied to it, but I just don't see PR as the one to have done it. I could be wrong, and I don't believe she was innocent in the whole thing, but I just have a gut feeling about JR.

As far as "protocol" goes, I'd think LE would want to put some kind of tracking device in the suitcase, but maybe he had some plan to get around that.

Here's another off the wall thought. Maybe it wasn't a call he was waiting on. Maybe he had arranged for someone to come take her out of the house in the suitcase while everyone else was upstairs? Could that be why he left the window open and the suitcase under it? (yes, I know FW moved it closer to the window, but JR left it there.) I feel sure that calls were made on his cell and that's why the December records came up blank, and why it was "lost". Maybe he called someone for advice, or maybe it was for help. Lately I've been thinking more along the lines of help, and my best guess would be PJay or MB. Probably MB due to the attorney/client privilege thing.

So I'm thinking either the fake SFF call didn't come in, or the pick up wasn't made, which ever the plan may have been. At that point he was left with no choice but to "find" her, and bring her to LA instead of bringing LA to her. There had to be a reason for that too. Most likely to "contaminate" the body & scene to account for any fibers, DNA, etc.

I think PR didn't come running because she was confused why JB was still there, and she sure didn't want to see her dead again. Then of course she throws herself on JB too, and does her "Lazarus" routine. Totally fake, IMO. I don't believe the reality would have set in within seconds. Denial is the first stage of grief, and it lasts more than 4 or 5 seconds.

DeeDee249 · Jan 26, 2014

Venom said:
Could it be that JB was made to sit on the chair? Kir Komrik's theory has her maybe being duct taped at the ankles to a chair.

No evidence of duct tape residue on her ankles, nor was any found on the legs of the longjohns. Doesn't mean it wasn't there- they might not have looked for it. But I don't think the chair was used. If it was, she certainly wasn't in it after death, or there would be a livor mortis pattern to show it. And she wasn't in it when rigor formed either- or that would be readily apparent as well.
It is also odd that the R camp (led by Lou Smit) pushed the suitcase as a means of climbing in or out of the window when there WAS a chair.

Venom · Jan 26, 2014

Nom de plume said:
Sorry I wasn't more clear in the beginning. Sometimes I forget everyone else isn't able to "see" everything swirling around in my head. LOL

I'm not sure what the deal is with the chair, but his story about it blocking the door is obvious BS. While I tend not to buy into KK's theory all together, I do think the chair had something to do with the crime. Quite possibly she was made to sit in it, or was tied to it, but I just don't see PR as the one to have done it. I could be wrong, and I don't believe she was innocent in the whole thing, but I just have a gut feeling about JR.

As far as "protocol" goes, I'd think LE would want to put some kind of tracking device in the suitcase, but maybe he had some plan to get around that.

Here's another off the wall thought. Maybe it wasn't a call he was waiting on. Maybe he had arranged for someone to come take her out of the house in the suitcase while everyone else was upstairs? Could that be why he left the window open and the suitcase under it? (yes, I know FW moved it closer to the window, but JR left it there.) I feel sure that calls were made on his cell and that's why the December records came up blank, and why it was "lost". Maybe he called someone for advice, or maybe it was for help. Lately I've been thinking more along the lines of help, and my best guess would be PJay or MB. Probably MB due to the attorney/client privilege thing.

So I'm thinking either the fake SFF call didn't come in, or the pick up wasn't made, which ever the plan may have been. At that point he was left with no choice but to "find" her, and bring her to LA instead of bringing LA to her. There had to be a reason for that too. Most likely to "contaminate" the body & scene to account for any fibers, DNA, etc.

I think PR didn't come running because she was confused why JB was still there, and she sure didn't want to see her dead again. Then of course she throws herself on JB too, and does her "Lazarus" routine. Totally fake, IMO. I don't believe the reality would have set in within seconds. Denial is the first stage of grief, and it lasts more than 4 or 5 seconds.

Interesting thoughts. How I wish those phone records could be available.

DeeDee249 · Jan 26, 2014

Venom said:
Is there any "protocol" for a kidnapping? Would LE just have taken his word that there was $118,000 in the case, or would they have supplied him with a case? I too tend to ask a lot of questions, lol.

There is a protocol- as a matter of fact, the movie "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town" shows the Police chief looking through his desk for a protocol book. The FBI surely has protocols. But in this case, so much was done that violated accepted protocols that I don't think we can assume police would have followed any.

Venom · Jan 26, 2014

DeeDee249 said:
No evidence of duct tape residue on her ankles, nor was any found on the legs of the longjohns. Doesn't mean it wasn't there- they might not have looked for it. But I don't think the chair was used. If it was, she certainly wasn't in it after death, or there would be a livor mortis pattern to show it. And she wasn't in it when rigor formed either- or that would be readily apparent as well.
It is also odd that the R camp (led by Lou Smit) pushed the suitcase as a means of climbing in or out of the window when there WAS a chair.

Thanks. I read some of KK's theory, was just speculating off of it. I'm not "sold" on his theory, but he does bring up a few interesting points. It is odd that JR put the chair in the doorway, why would he want it known that the chair was there? The 2 others who were in the basement before him didn't see it. And wouldn't FW have had to move it out of the way to get into the room?

DeeDee249 · Jan 26, 2014

Venom said:
Thanks. I read some of KK's theory, was just speculating off of it. I'm not "sold" on his theory, but he does bring up a few interesting points. It is odd that JR put the chair in the doorway, why would he want it known that the chair was there? The 2 others who were in the basement before him didn't see it. And wouldn't FW have had to move it out of the way to get into the room?

Yes he would have had to move the chair. We know he was in the room- he moved the suitcase and picked up some pieces of broken glass.

Nom de plume · Jan 26, 2014

Frigga said:
dazeerae~

Great post!

Do you mind sharing with me some of the things you think John showed about himself in his (or their) books? I have never been able to force myself to read one, but now I just may have to! TIA

Not meaning to be presumptuous, but I think you may have been referring to my post about JR "telling" on himself. If not, my apologies for answering for dazeerae.

I've only been able to stomach a few chapters of DOI, and haven't even opened TOSOS, although I have a good friend that's read them both and shared lots of info with me.

I find it very telling that JR kept pictures of Beth between his shower & tub, visible from both. That's just sick. He spends more time in DOI mourning Beth than he does JB. He "forgave" JB's killer almost instantly, and said he only wanted to "know why". Huh? :waitasec: In the CBN interview he asked "What if we were the killers?" That's just really bizarre. I see how he was trying to pull it off, but still a tell in my book. In TOSOS he describes how he went to India (I think) on a mission trip to work with young girls in the sex trade. Ok, :facepalm: Then there's the "underwear" thing, over & over again.

There's about 1000 more. Let me give it some thought and I'll post more. I'll probably have to make a list there's too many to remember.

Nom de plume · Jan 26, 2014

Venom said:
Thanks. I read some of KK's theory, was just speculating off of it. I'm not "sold" on his theory, but he does bring up a few interesting points. It is odd that JR put the chair in the doorway, why would he want it known that the chair was there? The 2 others who were in the basement before him didn't see it. And wouldn't FW have had to move it out of the way to get into the room?

I don't think he DID put it in the doorway. I think he just SAID he had to move it to get in the room. For what purpose, I have no clue. :facepalm: Guess JR's just too smart for me.

Nom de plume · Jan 26, 2014

Speaking of "tells", there's a book about what some believe are the ultimate "tells", reverse speech. (Not sure why but I'm not able to make the link work here for the website that talks about it and has examples & mp3s you can listen to. If you just google the phrase, or add a dot com you'll get there. Search the database for JBR & it all pops up.) The book is JonBenet Knows Evil Love by Richard Rubacher available on Amazon. Interesting to note: No lawsuit filed by the Rs.

Just putting it out there for everyone to decide for themselves. If true, it doesn't get any more clear than this, right down to who did what.

gramcracker · Jan 27, 2014

one of the BPD detectives had attended a CASKU seminar fairly recently. she was using accrued vacation during the holiday and was out of town. they called her after they couldn't find the protocol binder and she told them where it was

Venom · Jan 27, 2014

Nom de plume said:
I don't think he DID put it in the doorway. I think he just SAID he had to move it to get in the room. For what purpose, I have no clue. :facepalm: Guess JR's just too smart for me.

I must be looking too far into it. :doh:

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