Did Texas CPS do wrong?

There is thought Texas CPS overstepped the mark by removing over 400 children from the Eldorado compound. this is not my belief, but i sincerely do have respect for those who present the case against the raid and removal of the children.

i wonder if this thread could be dedicated to discussion of thoughts on this?

i am the first to jump up and down about breaches of civil liberties, however i feel those children needed removing from the influence of Warren Jeffs, amongst others.

I believe CPS did right!

Quote taken 09:49 pm, 27, April, 2008, from thread #5

FlowerChild said:

It began with CPS!
They got a report of an ABUSED GIRL.
They went to seek out the girl - in an armed, fenced, guarded RANCH...
Because of WACO, they did not go alone, they took LE support - so the FLDS DIDN'T SHOOT the CPS Workers.
They took CONTROL of the PROPERTY to protect EVERYONE. Not just the "outsiders" - but also the members themselves. Waco and Jim Jones taught us that some "leaders" have no problem murdering/martyring THEIR OWN to evade capture or prison or make a "point" or protest. CPS had no idea whether the FLDS would KILL THEIR OWN KIDS before allowing them to talk to a CPS Worker. WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN OK??? Would 200 dead BABIES and 40 dead 14 year old mothers have been BETTER???

Puhleeze - they went in PEACEFULLY and they took out the women and children PEACEFULLY! No on had even a hair harmed. This wasn't a HOUSE - this was a REMOTE, FORTIFIED COMPOUND - a private, off the grid, self contained TOWN with 600+ PEOPLE IN IT.

THEY HAD REASON TO INVESTIGATE - and the LAW TODAY permitted them to use LE and security forces to expedite that investigation. Think domestic "terrorism". If you don't like the "New Order" of things SINCE 9-11 then talk to the current Govt about CIVIL RIGHTS. They did NOTHING WRONG at YFZ - in fact - they did much LESS than the US/LE/Govt has done to other people and groups that have come into question. If this was a MUSLIM Compound instead of FLDS betcha not ONE "Religious Rights" person would be here posting about the loss of their "rights" and civil liberties and begging for thier kids to be returned and for them to be left alone.

Our prejudices are showing a little me thinks...like red petticoats in a sea of pastels.....

My Opinion

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I couldn't agree with you more, Flower Child! :furious:

I think only time will tell if CPS made the correct call. This case is sure to push our legal boundaries in many arenas and this will be one of them.

I don't have enough information to form an opinion as to whether or not the warrants were valid; the intial child abuse report was an elaborate hoax (and if so, whose hoax?); proper protocol and/or procedure were followed, etc...etc....

CPS says all was done as it should be. Attorneys for the FLDS say grave miscalculations amd assumptions were made. Writings and timelines from the FLDS woman and children paint a picture of unfairness and rights being trampled on. Surprise, surprise - every side has an opinion and we watchers from the stands will either pick one that suits us and run with it or wait until more information develops.

I choose the latter course.

I personally cannot decide which is worse - being in a compound with the FLDS and their many problems or having your sheltered life ripped asunder and being thrown into modern world foster care. Honestly, I wish the choices were better.

I'm not prepared to say that CPS did wrong and neither am I able to accept that they did right. Regardless or right or wrong, I think our country needs to stand up and take full notice and attention when an entire religious compund is dismantled by a state or federal agency.

This would have made a good poll.

Reposted here from 5

I respectfully disagree. This began with a call to CPS. The whole Jeffs, was dealt with. I don't think it had any bearing on what happened here.

Theyse people were breaking the laws. They were practicing polygamy, they were raping children, they were participating in fraud. They were abusing there kids. They were WATERBOARDING there babies.

If we allow them to get away with it, then what is next???

My husband put it into simple terms..

If he created a religious group called the "only rights" and one of there religious practice is to take out (kill) anyone that does not meet Gods criteria, is that right? So they take out anyone that practices adultry, drugs, etc. And they can't be prosecuted because it is a religion?

When do we draw the line on religion and state??

golfmom said:

This would have made a good poll.

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You could do a poll! go ahead. i'll vote. i know a poll can't be added to this thread now, but a separate poll/thread surely you could make? :blowkiss:

The people on our earth have taken on a new direction to tilt and wobble.

We allow abortion, killing of unborn babies for economic dollars $$$ its a job.

We look the other way when folks use surrogate mothers to carry the sperm of another non family member male and bring forth a child, to be loved and cared for by NEW father. A paid for service. $$$

We let business thrive when we let men donate their sperm to a sperm bank. Another paid for service. $$$

Happy that no shots were fired. Their buildings are still standing. The children have been ripped from the only family they have known. So many children, so many moms, and when the DNA shows up, will there be one daddy, or maybe two?

The big question would seem to be, is 400 children born from one daddy too many or not enough? Would anyone have ever known about this group, IF someone had not made 'the' call?

Do we all remember the physician of some years ago, that officially, impregnated his female patients with his own sperm? Female patients that were having difficulty in conceiving and having a child. His number count as I recall was 50 children.

The law so far seems rather loose in determining the exact method of reproduction and how much should be paid for it, or if it should be free, or just an 'in house' determination.

Sad, any way you look at it. Crazy is another word that comes to my mind. Personally I have not read anything in the bible about this type of arrangement being good or an accepted practice. Keep in mind I have not read the entire bible yet.

.

Camper said:

Would anyone have ever known about this group, IF someone had not made 'the' call?
.

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I have known about this group for 11 years and have been following the development of the Eldorado Compound since the beginning.

You do make very interesting points about the law and reproduction.

I believe that CPS was right. First, they received a call of child abuse. Yes, it turns out that might have been a hoax. But you would probably be surprised about how many hoax calls CPS receives- and they all have to be investigated.

Second, knowing the history of other closed societies, knowing that the gates were guarded, knowing that there were rumors of threats being made if anyone attempted to enter the compound- they took law enforcement with them to ensure a peaceful entry so they could investigate. In order to make sure they were not violating anyone's "religious rights" they got a search warrant, to allow their entry and a search of the property.

Upon entering the compound I believe they did find abuse in the form of pregnant teens. I believe that as the investigation progresses they will also find other forms of abuse. And evidence of incest, abandonment as well as evidence of other crimes.

I believe they had reason to remove the children to protect the ones known to have been abused (pregnant teens) and that they had to remove the others because of their being exposed to abuse as well as to a culture of "grooming" for future abuse. In that way, I believe that all the children were in danger, and I do believe that they will also find other abuses upon the younger children.

While I understand why the mothers were allowed to go with the children, needing time to observe them and see if they were going to compliant with the abuse, to help sort out who was of age and who was only lying and saying they were of age. Still, it is not usual practice to allow the mothers to go with removed children.

Yes, I agree that in order to accommodate the timeline, for court hearings they initial hearings had to be done in mass. But I do believe that future hearings should be done individually or at least by family groups (father and all wives)

I also believe that any parent who is proven to have lied about their child's age name or paternity and who doesn't give DNA, should not be allowed to gain their child back. And if it is found that they committed or condoned the abuses that they should be prosecuted (including leaders and the women as well as any "husbands.")

I also believe that if evidence of other crimes are found (incest, fraud, domestic violence, income tax fraud, tax evasion, polygamy etc.) that they should be prosecuted for those crimes.

And yes, I feel that Texas CPS had no other choice but to investigate the complaint they recieved. I believe they are mandated by law to do so.

27 yrs ago someone called CPS on me. I was going thru a divorce & had 4 kids. CPS came to the door at 7 a.m. & wanted to see my kids & make sure they were ok/ the complaint stated my kids were left home alone. I was totally confused, my 2 teenagers were asleep & the 2 boys ( age 8 & 2 ) were with there Dad for the weekend. CPS had got 15 or more phone calls the night before, stating the kids were left home alone.

I told the girlsl to dress quickly ( it was summer & they slept in as little as possible) & come downstairs. That CPS was wanting to make sure they were ok. You can about imagine the look on his (CPS) face when 2 teenagers came down a grumbling. He wanted to know where the other kids were at / like we were hiding them. So we asked him if he'd like to go upstairs & look around / he said he never had a search warrant. I assured him he never needed it / I had nothing to hide.

We opened closet doors / took him to the basement / I offered him a cup of coffee or a soda / showed him my kitchen cabinets had food / opened my deep freezer & said see its even filled with meat. He asked if he could come back & talk to my 2 boys. I told him you bet you can I have nothing to hide my boys are never left alone.

He apologized several times & thanked me for being so nice. I passed with flying colors.....was I victimized you bet I was! The fact is I had NOTHING to hide. CPS was 100% correct in coming to make sure my kids were ok!

I think that the Texas Department of Health and Human Services Child Protection Services acted exactly as they should have. Kudos to them, and all law enforcement agencies involved for their actions.

Now let's see where the investigation takes the case. I hope and pray that at least some of those children can be healed from the scars caused by living within the confines of a harmful cult that disgracefully masquerades as a religious sect.

Lion

I still question whether in fact they really are a "religious" group. The "trappings" of a religion, the doctrine, etc to me are a veneer, a cover for what really is going on. These grown men, the leaders, who have had access to the outside world KNOW that the abuse, the sexual conduct with minors and the subjugation of women is illegal and morally wrong. But they don't care. They act as if they're above the laws that the rest of us follow. They act as if they're "better or superior" to the rest of us. Last time I looked it didn't matter whether you were FLDS or not, jail time and jail food is the same for either.

CPS followed their mandate. They had to investigate and once they did and allegedly found evidence of abuse, then they had no choice but to get a search warrant and remove the children.

cheko1 said:

27 yrs ago someone called CPS on me. I was going thru a divorce & had 4 kids. CPS came to the door at 7 a.m. & wanted to see my kids & make sure they were ok/ the complaint stated my kids were left home alone. I was totally confused, my 2 teenagers were asleep & the 2 boys ( age 8 & 2 ) were with there Dad for the weekend. CPS had got 15 or more phone calls the night before, stating the kids were left home alone.

I told the girlsl to dress quickly ( it was summer & they slept in as little as possible) & come downstairs. That CPS was wanting to make sure they were ok. You can about imagine the look on his (CPS) face when 2 teenagers came down a grumbling. He wanted to know where the other kids were at / like we were hiding them. So we asked him if he'd like to go upstairs & look around / he said he never had a search warrant. I assured him he never needed it / I had nothing to hide.

We opened closet doors / took him to the basement / I offered him a cup of coffee or a soda / showed him my kitchen cabinets had food / opened my deep freezer & said see its even filled with meat. He asked if he could come back & talk to my 2 boys. I told him you bet you can I have nothing to hide my boys are never left alone.

If you had had a pregnant girl under the age of consent and her "spiritual husband" in your home, do you think CPS would have acted?

He apologized several times & thanked me for being so nice. I passed with flying colors.....was I victimized you bet I was! The fact is I had NOTHING to hide. CPS was 100% correct in coming to make sure my kids were ok!

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So wouldn't you call this a hoax call? CPS gets hoax calls. But irregardless, they do have to investigate. Just like they did in your situation. What do you think would have happened if you had passed the being present, having food and etc., but had had a pregnant girl under the age of consent and her "spiritual husband" in your home, what do you think would have happened?

mysteriew said:

So wouldn't you call this a hoax call? CPS gets hoax calls. But irregardless, they do have to investigate. Just like they did in this situation.

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Yes, I'd term it a hoax call.. I applaud how Cheko1 handled it.

When I was 22 and my child was almost a year old I had someone call CPS on me too. As soon as the CPS worker began asking me questions I knew who'd done it and I asked. The woman said that they couldn't tell who made the call. So I told her who it was and why. I had just moved from a rental residence because of unwanted advances by the caretaker who's wife owned the property. I'd moved next door into a home with married friends of mine, temporarily because in three weeks I'd be going back to work and moving to another state. It just so happens that his stepdaughter was there with me and told the CPS worker that she'd witnessed his overtures and my reaction. What's more she'd been present when he'd made a secretive call that morning and now she knew who it'd been to.

The CPS worker was very nice but professional and explained that they had to check out each and every report and she was relieved to find that there was no basis for the call, my child was healthy, safe and she left. It was a hoax and the hoaxster paid. The stepdaughter told her mother and that was the end of that. Yes, it rankles me to this date that he made the call, it was embarassing, but I understand that she was doing her job and that her job was checking the safety of the child involved, my child.

mollymalone said:

I still question whether in fact they really are a "religious" group. The "trappings" of a religion, the doctrine, etc to me are a veneer, a cover for what really is going on. These grown men, the leaders, who have had access to the outside world KNOW that the abuse, the sexual conduct with minors and the subjugation of women is illegal and morally wrong. But they don't care. They act as if they're above the laws that the rest of us follow. They act as if they're "better or superior" to the rest of us. Last time I looked it didn't matter whether you were FLDS or not, jail time and jail food is the same for either.

CPS followed their mandate. They had to investigate and once they did and allegedly found evidence of abuse, then they had no choice but to get a search warrant and remove the children.

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Good points, molly. I would not be surprised to learn one day that the allegations that Jeff's sexually abused his two nephews are true. I would not be surprised if the slime continued on with the FLDS cult in order to get his twisted pedophilia needs fulfilled in addition to having ultimate control over all in the compound--especially women and children.

Lion

LionRun said:

Good points, molly. I would not be surprised to learn one day that the allegations that Jeff's sexually abused his two nephews are true. I would not be surprised if the slime continued on with the FLDS cult in order to get his twisted pedophilia needs fulfilled in addition to having ultimate control over all in the compound--especially women and children.

Lion

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Lion, from those who've left the FLDS, male or female, they've all said the same thing, that this has been going on for generations. The religious aspect was nothing more than a cover for their actions. Warren Jeffs is just another in a long line of twisted sexual perversion. Without the iron control they couldn't have that level of access to sex. I also think that these leaders have a low opinon of women to begin with and embrace the teaching because it gives them what they want...control.

I mean, really, the majority of the men, especially the leaders, they're no great shakes in the looks dept. even when young. How many young girls or women would look at them as they would a younger boy or man? Without that control these old farts wouldn't have 22 or more wives. 80? GMAB. They'd be lucky to have one, and they'd have to improve their attitudes.

I've read several accounts that say Warren Jeffs made the girls skin crawl when he was near them. I'm with you, I think he continued it because he's as twisted or more.

mysteriew said:

I believe that CPS was right. First, they received a call of child abuse. Yes, it turns out that might have been a hoax. But you would probably be surprised about how many hoax calls CPS receives- and they all have to be investigated.

Second, knowing the history of other closed societies, knowing that the gates were guarded, knowing that there were rumors of threats being made if anyone attempted to enter the compound- they took law enforcement with them to ensure a peaceful entry so they could investigate. In order to make sure they were not violating anyone's "religious rights" they got a search warrant, to allow their entry and a search of the property.

Upon entering the compound I believe they did find abuse in the form of pregnant teens. I believe that as the investigation progresses they will also find other forms of abuse. And evidence of incest, abandonment as well as evidence of other crimes.

I believe they had reason to remove the children to protect the ones known to have been abused (pregnant teens) and that they had to remove the others because of their being exposed to abuse as well as to a culture of "grooming" for future abuse. In that way, I believe that all the children were in danger, and I do believe that they will also find other abuses upon the younger children.

While I understand why the mothers were allowed to go with the children, needing time to observe them and see if they were going to compliant with the abuse, to help sort out who was of age and who was only lying and saying they were of age. Still, it is not usual practice to allow the mothers to go with removed children.

Yes, I agree that in order to accommodate the timeline, for court hearings they initial hearings had to be done in mass. But I do believe that future hearings should be done individually or at least by family groups (father and all wives)

I also believe that any parent who is proven to have lied about their child's age name or paternity and who doesn't give DNA, should not be allowed to gain their child back. And if it is found that they committed or condoned the abuses that they should be prosecuted (including leaders and the women as well as any "husbands.")

I also believe that if evidence of other crimes are found (incest, fraud, domestic violence, income tax fraud, tax evasion, polygamy etc.) that they should be prosecuted for those crimes.

And yes, I feel that Texas CPS had no other choice but to investigate the complaint they recieved. I believe they are mandated by law to do so .

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Once again, I'm in agreement!:clap::clap::clap: Well-stated!

Another true story..............

A long-time friend and neighbor, has a son who made a mistake. When he was 19-years-old he married an 18-year-old girl. My friend and her husband didn't approve of the marriage, especially with the two being so young. Of course, within months of the marriage the young couple had a baby, and then another baby. Four years after the marriage, their son filed for divorce.

It's been 11 or 12 years now since the young couple divorced. My friend's son has primary custody of his two children, and his ex-wife has visitation. In the past 11 or 12 years, the ex-wife has married two more times and has had four more children. She served 5 months in jail for felony insurance fraud, and just last June was arrested for felony grand theft from a department store. That was later reduced to a misdemeanor and she's on probation.

In the 11 or 12 years since their divorce, the ex-wife has a habit of taking my friend's son back to court for custody of the two children once or twice a year. Each time, she calls CPS a couple of months prior to a court date, and files a bogus charge of abuse against her ex-husband. It's gotten to the point that CPS now apologizes each time they pay him a visit, but they have to follow up on all calls.

The last time they went to court, the judge reprimanded the ex-wife telling her that if she brings any more frivolous lawsuits before the court, she will be sanctioned by paying attorney fees and court costs.

The parents (mothers) here who have recounted their OWN personal experiences with FALSE reports to CPS and the subsequent investigations show clearly HOW the FLDS incident varied from the NORM!

When CPS showed up to investigate allegations of abuse what did THESE NORMAL innocent falsely accused mothers do??

The mothers were HONEST AND OPEN - had "nothing to hide". They were EAGER to PROVE THE ALLEGATIONS FALSE!

FLDS parents LIED, made the children LIE and engaged in an organized cover-up to HIDE children who were NOT their bio children, but who lived with them AND a cover-up to hide a number (not just ONE) of underage pregnancies and underage marriages by GIRLS who were in their care. It wasn't just ONE parent or person - it was institutionalized - it involved ALL the parents and ALL the children.

Normal MOTHERS are eager to prove that they are GOOD MOTHERS. And they certainly can PROVE in a heartbeat (if necessary) that their children are (legally) their children - and NOT someone else's.
Normal children know who their parents are and can point them out of a CROWD.
Normal children do not change their names from day-to-day.
Normal, good families do NOT have much to hide, really. They aren't perfect, but there aren't big dark secrets that kids must be TRAINED from birth to lie about.

If the FLDS is so wonderful a life and faith and they KNOW they live "right" and aside from spiritual plural marriages (polygamy) they are "just like us" - then why all the complicated subterfuge? Why the layers of lies? If there is nothing to "hide" then why are they going to such trouble to hide under a hundred complicated lies even the smallest fact - like the NAMES and parentage of the children? And WHY is it necessary to "train" the KIDS to lie? If they truly believe in their faith then why must the KIDS BE TAUGHT TO LIE about it from birth - to the point of PURPOSELY misleading others. These are CHILDREN TRAINED to systematically LIE and mislead EVERYONE. That's what PEDOPHILES and CHILD PREDATORS DO, force their victims to LIE to EVERYONE!

Most religions are PROUD of the tenets and the beliefs in their "faith" and they are EAGER (the Mainstream LDS anyone) to SHARE those things with others. They don't run around HIDING "their light under a basket" - but let it shine for all to see as an example! It isn't a SECRET - but a testimony! IMO you only have to start HIDING things and covering things up and denying your own faith to your CHILDREN (and teaching them to DENY it TOO) if there is SOMETHING TO HIDE! The FLDS isn't just being "coy" or keeping some practices "private/exclusive" for the faithful, they are HIDING and COVERING UP or DENYING all of it! You only have to make up a whole story out of nothing if the REAL STORY is so ugly it cannot be revealed under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

To ME the difference in a religion and a CULT is THE SECRETS! And the FLDS is NOTHING BUT A SECRET FROM A-Z. From beginning to END - they KNOW what they are doing is WRONG - ALL of it - and they KNOW it is SO WRONG they MUST keep it a SECRET AT ALL COSTS. In fact, the SECRETS are SO BAD that they will destroy the whole FLDS to keep them from coming out. Scorched Earth - they will burn their own villages and sacrifice their own people before they will let someone SEE the truth. A CULT is when the ORGANIZATION and it's survival (along with the "head person") is more important than the members/faithful or the beliefs. True religions are to preserve the ideals, the people, the beliefs, the salvation, the history, the benefits - CULTS are focused on preserving the ORGANIZATION and it's FIGUREHEAD (not the beliefs) above everything.

The answer FOR ME IS THAT with time, Cults always end up being about a PERSON - and NOT a belief...seldom does a cult outlive the founder/figurehead for very long. A RELIGION transcends humanity, a CULT depends on it.

My Opinion