Human Remains (*cadaver) Detection (HRD) dog questions and answers **NO DISCUSSION**

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Peliman said:
Waves and thanks to you two for my doggy edumacation. Question for the experts because I'm working on a dog theory.

Trailing dogs! Well, we know baby Lisa didn't walk out of the house and get lost in the woods. She obviously was carried or driven somewhere. IMO

Reports are trailing dogs we're used in day 2 or 3 of her missing. Dogs were used in woods searches around the home and reportedly but nothing was found. (according to reports) A man with a carrying a baby with only a diaper on, reported x 2. I beleive one of those persons has been found and his lead was eliminated.

Question: Do you think a trailing dog would have picked up on the baby's scent if a baby was carried away from the house? If no scent was detected, is it more likely the baby was put in a vehicle and driven away?
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You are most welcome!

Disclaimer-All talk is based on well trained dogs, and using the right dogs, if they are not then all bets are off, lol.

I agree, I think it's safe to say she did not walk out on her own.

In regards to babies and trailing dogs, I've seen some interesting results. Babies smell different to us and to dogs as well. We were lucky to have a baby in the family to use for training and therefore had a very reliable group of dogs on baby trails, however I have seen a fair share of dogs that have had a lot of trouble picking up a scent of a trail laid by a baby in a stroller or being carried. Why? Is it the smell of the baby, is it the way scent disperses differently when the subject is being carried or pushed? Is it a combo? Regardless, it is something to take into consideration and I think important to know whether the dogs have trained on the kind of scenario.

So, there are a lot of variables going on here, without info. on their background, I'm not sure we can really say.
 
Oriah said:
BBM:
Oh, no. An HRD dog can detect very minute HR scent particles. Much more minute than the average human nose. ;)
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Thanks for the reply. So when does human decomp smell become noticeable to a human being? hours, days, weeks? I realize it all depends on environmental factors....ie heat, etc. but in your experience with SAR what would be your opinion? Specific to home environment, if possible.
 
sarx said:
You are most welcome!

Disclaimer-All talk is based on well trained dogs, and using the right dogs, if they are not then all bets are off, lol.

<I agree, I think it's safe to say she did not walk out on her own.

In regards to babies and trailing dogs, I've seen some interesting results. Babies smell different to us and to dogs as well. We were lucky to have a baby in the family to use for training and therefore had a very reliable group of dogs on baby trails, however I have seen a fair share of dogs that have had a lot of trouble picking up a scent of a trail laid by a baby in a stroller or being carried. Why? Is it the smell of the baby, is it the way scent disperses differently when the subject is being carried or pushed? Is it a combo? Regardless, it is something to take into consideration and I think important to know whether the dogs have trained on the kind of scenario.>

I agree. We haven't had a lot of luck with trailing carried/transported babies, unless the scent deposit begins up pretty high, and environmental conditions are the perfect storm. We did have luck with one case of a baby being carried in a carseat (removed from vehicle- person walking- carrying baby strapped in car seat.)

Personally, my opinion is loosely based on a ratio. Size of baby + height held during transport + scent deposits at that height + environment to hold scent + 'baby scent.'
It's a fascinating concept to explore.

In Lisa's case though- we're talking about a baby who was able to walk. And the HRD hit(s). And now I am O/T because this is not a discussion thread!
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I'm going o/t as well and I apologize......just to be clear. I don't think Lisa was walking yet. We see her standing holding on to the glass door but I haven't heard or read anywhere she was walking on her own. Was that confirmed? TIA
 
~n/t~ said:
I'm going o/t as well and I apologize......just to be clear. I don't think Lisa was walking yet. We see her standing holding on to the glass door but I haven't heard or read anywhere she was walking on her own. Was that confirmed? TIA
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Not really off topic- because I believe that has a lot to do with when, where, and why HRD dog(s) may have been brought in on her case.

I thought I recalled a parent stating at some point that she was walking? I don't know where or what news report, though. Just remember thinking that would be why I would try to trail immediately. My first thought was she may have stumbled outside somehow (10 month old babies being stumblers...)

No clue if that's fact, though.
 
~n/t~ said:
Thanks for the reply. So when does human decomp smell become noticeable to a human being? hours, days, weeks? I realize it all depends on environmental factors....ie heat, etc. but in your experience with SAR what would be your opinion? Specific to home environment, if possible.
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It depends not only on environmental factors, but also on amount and type of decomp- as well as each individuals human sense of smell.

I can smell decomp about a mile away. A friend of mine couldn't smell it (or identify it) if it was in the next room.

No different than dogs. Some have good sniffers- some don't. ;)
 
Sarx and Oriah,

This might be an "odd" question and thought I would ask since the thread has sort of "slowed down" :innocent::innocent:

I was wondering can a dog "detect" the "death" of a person -- even if the dog is NOT trained in HRD ?

I was wondering about this from a personal experience -- when my mother passed away at home [terminal illness], all of us family were there, including the 2 Beagles, and right when she passed, the Beagles let out a "howl" that I have never heard from them before ...

I have always thought to myself the "dogs knew" Mom was not with us any more ... Sorry to mention this ...

It is just "fascinating" to me how "dogs" can sense things ... oh, and another thing I remember was when the "dogs" alerted when that Tsunami was about to hit !

THANKS SO MUCH ... and so sorry for the question, but I had to ask ...:innocent:
 
dog.gone.cute said:
Sarx and Oriah,

This might be an "odd" question and thought I would ask since the thread has sort of "slowed down" :innocent::innocent:

I was wondering can a dog "detect" the "death" of a person -- even if the dog is NOT trained in HRD ?

I was wondering about this from a personal experience -- when my mother passed away at home [terminal illness], all of us family were there, including the 2 Beagles, and right when she passed, the Beagles let out a "howl" that I have never heard from them before ...

I have always thought to myself the "dogs knew" Mom was not with us any more ... Sorry to mention this ...

It is just "fascinating" to me how "dogs" can sense things ... oh, and another thing I remember was when the "dogs" alerted when that Tsunami was about to hit !

THANKS SO MUCH ... and so sorry for the question, but I had to ask ...:innocent:
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Absolutely. I mean, not all dogs, but yes, I have personally seen that type of thing with just a reg. ole house pet. I've talked to a number of nurses and hospice care workers that have seen the same things many times over.
 
dog.gone.cute said:
Sarx and Oriah,

This might be an "odd" question and thought I would ask since the thread has sort of "slowed down" :innocent::innocent:

I was wondering can a dog "detect" the "death" of a person -- even if the dog is NOT trained in HRD ?

I was wondering about this from a personal experience -- when my mother passed away at home [terminal illness], all of us family were there, including the 2 Beagles, and right when she passed, the Beagles let out a "howl" that I have never heard from them before ...

I have always thought to myself the "dogs knew" Mom was not with us any more ... Sorry to mention this ...

It is just "fascinating" to me how "dogs" can sense things ... oh, and another thing I remember was when the "dogs" alerted when that Tsunami was about to hit !

THANKS SO MUCH ... and so sorry for the question, but I had to ask ...:innocent:
Click to expand...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/offbeat/2007-07-26-foreboding-feline_N.htm

When Oscar curls up on a patient's bed and stays there, the staff knows it's time to call the family. It usually means the patient has less than four hours to live.
...
The 2-year-old Oscar was adopted as a kitten and grew up in a third-floor dementia unit at Steere House, which treats people with Alzheimer's, Parkinson's disease and other illnesses. After about six months, the staff noticed the cat would make his own rounds, just like the doctors and nurses. He'd sniff and observe patients, and those he stayed with would wind up dying in a few hours.
 
sarx said:
Absolutely. I mean, not all dogs, but yes, I have personally seen that type of thing with just a reg. ole house pet. I've talked to a number of nurses and hospice care workers that have seen the same things many times over.
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:tyou:
 
stillwatersc said:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/offbeat/2007-07-26-foreboding-feline_N.htm

When Oscar curls up on a patient's bed and stays there, the staff knows it's time to call the family. It usually means the patient has less than four hours to live.
...
The 2-year-old Oscar was adopted as a kitten and grew up in a third-floor dementia unit at Steere House, which treats people with Alzheimer's, Parkinson's disease and other illnesses. After about six months, the staff noticed the cat would make his own rounds, just like the doctors and nurses. He'd sniff and observe patients, and those he stayed with would wind up dying in a few hours.
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Wow ... Very Interesting ... TY !
 
I think we need to change the name of this thread. every time I search the Lisa Irwin section and see "HUMAN REMAINS" in big bold letters my heart jumps up into my throat thinking they found her body. You'd think after all this time I'd be used to seeing this title and know what it is, wouldn't you? :redface:
 
dog.gone.cute said:
Sarx and Oriah,

This might be an "odd" question and thought I would ask since the thread has sort of "slowed down" :innocent::innocent:

I was wondering can a dog "detect" the "death" of a person -- even if the dog is NOT trained in HRD ?

I was wondering about this from a personal experience -- when my mother passed away at home [terminal illness], all of us family were there, including the 2 Beagles, and right when she passed, the Beagles let out a "howl" that I have never heard from them before ...

I have always thought to myself the "dogs knew" Mom was not with us any more ... Sorry to mention this ...

It is just "fascinating" to me how "dogs" can sense things ... oh, and another thing I remember was when the "dogs" alerted when that Tsunami was about to hit !

THANKS SO MUCH ... and so sorry for the question, but I had to ask ...:innocent:
Click to expand...

I'm sorry for the loss of your mom, dog.gone.cute. :(

That's kind of an interesting question- for several reasons. I've been in a couple of different situations when a person was alive, and then passed- with both HRD dogs present (disasters) and pet dogs present (friends/family.)

My HRD dogs did not HR alert (they are cross trained) at all. Even after the persons had passed. But perhaps that is because the person was removed quickly and we released them back into search mode?

My pet dogs appeared to grow very 'protective'- circling, touching noses, giving kisses, snuggling, etc.

It is a science worth studying, for sure.
 
After today's search, I have a question. What is the protocol about the dog's collar(s)? Does it change depending on terrain/water?
 
SleuthyMama said:
Animals are just the most amazing creatures. That's all.
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Sort of off topic, but sort of not:

Last year our black lab, Bear , started this thing where he would sniff me and whine. We sort of blew it off as him acting like a weirdo. Then we noticed that, whenever we hiked up in the woods, he would walk right in front of me and stop dead in my path if I got too far behind him. Then he'd come back to me, sniff me and whine. Not long after that, during a routine check up, my doctor discovered that my bloodwork was just nuts. I won't get into the medical particulars, but I'm convinced Bear knew something wasn't right. He still sticks to me like glue whenever we're out and about , despite the fact that his number one human is Hubby. Before my medical issues, he paid very little mind to me at all.

I just thought that was a neat story to share here. Dogs rock! :rocker:
 
Oriah said:
I'm sorry for the loss of your mom, dog.gone.cute. :(

That's kind of an interesting question- for several reasons. I've been in a couple of different situations when a person was alive, and then passed- with both HRD dogs present (disasters) and pet dogs present (friends/family.)

My HRD dogs did not HR alert (they are cross trained) at all. Even after the persons had passed. But perhaps that is because the person was removed quickly and we released them back into search mode?

My pet dogs appeared to grow very 'protective'- circling, touching noses, giving kisses, snuggling, etc.

It is a science worth studying, for sure.
Click to expand...


:tyou:
 
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