17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #18

Concerned Papa · Apr 7, 2012

There's a couple of other points that reinforce this "new" body location actually being right in front of this witness's home.

Out of this entire big development, somehow the first responder, Officer Timothy Smith, knew exactly where to park his squad car in order to walk directly between the ends of those buildings and to the body.

To further confirm the location of the body as being behind this witnesses residence, NOTICE THE ADDRESS shown as the incident address on the SPD report!

LolaMoon08 · Apr 7, 2012

katydid23 said:
I don't know why she would feel intimidated, as she was sitting there with her attorney. I would think she could have said anything she wanted to at the time.

She talked about the initial investigators. She said they asked her just to tell them what she saw and heard. And they put on the recorder and she told the story as she remembered it.

The thing is that she didn't really hear or see much of anything. She could hear voices, but not anything that was said. And she could see the figures, but not really tell who was who.

And I get the feeling that she initially told them she couldn't see who was on top, but now she is saying it was GZ on top. So I think that is why they seem reticent because she is filling in the blanks later. imo

She didn't have an attorney when the original investigators interviewed her the night of the shooting, did she? That is who I meant when I said she may have felt intimidated into saying George was the one screaming since they took the liberty to tell her "If it's any consolation, the guy screaming is alive?"

Since when would an investigator, taking a witnesses statement, say that to a witness? That is not allowing her to give her account, that is giving her the account they want her to have?

That is what it seems like to me?

MOO

Adrienne37 · Apr 7, 2012

i.b.nora said:
I am waiting for the transcript to appear from AC360 tonight, but, in the meantime, what the witness said was, that she did talk with an investigator in her home that night. She also said that they had a community meeting (I believe the next night) at the Clubhouse and that some of the same Police people came and that they encouraged people to call if they had any more questions or information or for any reason having to do with the 'incident'. They handed out cards with phone numbers to call. She said that after that she tried twice to call the Sanford Police and no one called her back.

This week the State Attorney reps met with her and interviewed her for about 15 minutes, some of which according to her attorney was just banter.

Yes, she said she called twice to speak with the lead investigator and that he had yet to return her call.

~jmo~

Dr.Fessel · Apr 7, 2012

vlpate said:
I'm pretty sure LE said the 911 tapes were not representative of all the calls that came in that night in reference to TM. I've always thought they held back any which might be key ear witness evidence.

Chief of police said they were released.

Why werent the 911 tapes initially released?
There are exemptions to the public records laws for active criminal intelligence and
for ongoing investigations. In this instance, the 911 calls made by neighbors in the
subdivision, and the non-emergency call made by Mr. Zimmerman are all key to the
investigation by Sanford Police Department. In consultation with the Office of the
State Attorney, the Sanford police department had decided not to release the audio
recordings of the 911 calls due to the ongoing investigation. Many times, specific
information is contained in those recordings which is vital to the integrity of the
investigation. At the time, it was determined that if revealed, the information may
compromise the integrity of the investigation prior to its completion. The 911 tapes
have since been released.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

LolaMoon08 · Apr 7, 2012

katydid23 said:
That is not what the lady witness just said. She said it was a long loud argument. It went on quite awhile.

I think it began with " why are you following me?"

What are you doing here?

And it progressed from there, like what do you care what I am doing here, get out of my face..Oh yea, Stop right there, right now...etc etc...

I understand that, but you said that you thought it could have been happening when they were struggling... we all heard them struggling... and there was only screaming... it wasn't a really loud verbal confrontion? Maybe I'm misunderstanding?

MOO

mdana · Apr 7, 2012

TonyGatto said:
We don't know if he was running. GZ said he was running. Even if TM picked up speed, I think once he made the turn and had GZ out of sight, he slowed down. Whatever the case, it's moot. They ended up at the stop, together, where TM died. And now we have a very clear witness statement that there was a loud argument before the struggle -- knocking down GZ's claim of a surprise attack or a punch to the face after the "homie" exchange. And, again, there are growing indications that SPD was SELECTIVE IN WHICH 911 CALLS TO RELEASE.

Her statements are contradictory and actually give credence to GZ calling the police, because it was apparently odd to be walking in the neighborhood. From the CNN article page 1.

"I thought it was rather loud, but I had just shut my window because it had just started pouring out rain," the witness said. "And then I thought, 'Oh, my gosh, who's out there walking their dog in the rain?'

...

The witness recounted seeing two men on the grass, one on top of the other. "And at that point, not looking out the window, I heard the yell for help, one yell for help, and then I heard another ... excruciating type of yell. It didn't almost sound like 'help.' It just sounded so painful. But I wasn't watching out the window during that. And then the next time I looked out the window, there's the same thing: two men on the grass, one on top of each other. I couldn't see a lot of movement. It was very dark, but I felt like they were scuffling. And then I heard the gunshots, which, to me, were more like pops than they were like a bang."

The witness recalled hearing more than one shot. "It definitely was more than one pop noise, so I don't know if it was an echo or anything else. But it definitely made more than one pop."

The witness said the shots were audible as one man was on top of the other. But the witness recalled not having been able to see clearly which man was on top because it was dark.

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-29/...hooting_1_witness-voices-window?_s=PM:JUSTICE

I do not understand how this can be considered a clear witness statement since she did not witness the start of the altercation, and she was unable to see clearly due to the rain and darkness. I believe this is the same woman that AB interviewed on AC 360 tonight. She is now contradicting herself and statinging it was GZ that was on top.

TonyGatto · Apr 7, 2012

Concerned Papa said:
There's a couple of other points that reinforce this "new" body location actually being right in front of this witness's home.

Out of this entire big development, somehow the first responder, Officer Timothy Smith, knew exactly where to park his squad car in order to walk directly between the ends of those buildings and to the body.

To further confirm the location of the body as being behind this witnesses residence, NOTICE THE ADDRESS shown as the incident address on the SPD report!

So this "new" location is further south than first thought, just south of the cutout, right? Do you think where the squad car is is where GZ's vehicle was parked, and that's what led the cops to go there?

TonyGatto · Apr 7, 2012

mdana said:
Her statements are contradictory and actually give credence to GZ calling the police, because it was apparently odd to be walking in the neighborhood. From the CNN article page 1.

"I thought it was rather loud, but I had just shut my window because it had just started pouring out rain," the witness said. "And then I thought, 'Oh, my gosh, who's out there walking their dog in the rain?'

...

The witness recounted seeing two men on the grass, one on top of the other. "And at that point, not looking out the window, I heard the yell for help, one yell for help, and then I heard another ... excruciating type of yell. It didn't almost sound like 'help.' It just sounded so painful. But I wasn't watching out the window during that. And then the next time I looked out the window, there's the same thing: two men on the grass, one on top of each other. I couldn't see a lot of movement. It was very dark, but I felt like they were scuffling. And then I heard the gunshots, which, to me, were more like pops than they were like a bang."

The witness recalled hearing more than one shot. "It definitely was more than one pop noise, so I don't know if it was an echo or anything else. But it definitely made more than one pop."

The witness said the shots were audible as one man was on top of the other. But the witness recalled not having been able to see clearly which man was on top because it was dark.

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-29/...hooting_1_witness-voices-window?_s=PM:JUSTICE

I do not understand how this can be considered a clear witness statement since she did not witness the start of the altercation, and she was unable to see clearly due to the rain and darkness. I believe this is the same woman that AB interviewed on AC 360 tonight. She is now contradicting herself and statinging it was GZ that was on top.

The clear witness statement I refer to is the loud argument that preceded the shot. IMO, that means GZ is lying when he says he was the victim of a surprise attack or that they had a quick verbal exchange which then led to a life and death struggle.

LolaMoon08 · Apr 7, 2012

mdana said:
http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-29/...hooting_1_witness-voices-window?_s=PM:JUSTICE

I do not understand how this can be considered a clear witness statement since she did not witness the start of the altercation, and she was unable to see clearly due to the rain and darkness. I believe this is the same woman that AB interviewed on AC 360 tonight. She is now contradicting herself and statinging it was GZ that was on top.

Snipped respectfully... I don't think any witness has claimed to have seen how it started? It doesn't take away from the fact that they are witnesses. Everything we can get out of these witnesses, even if the stories don't match (which they never do with eye witnesses), it gives us something to go on.

We also don't know who this "witness" is because it may be possible that some of these calls have not been released... which I hope is not true? Until she gives her name... we have no idea who she is?

MOO

vlpate · Apr 7, 2012

TonyGatto said:
I don't understand SYG. Let's say a husband kills his wife in their home and then calls 911. Cops get there and the husband says she attacked me and I feared for my life. There are no witnesses and nothing that disproves his claim. He doesn't get arrested?

I think this is an excellent question, actually. Imagine if this did apply to spouses. I think more women would be able to stop physical abuse pretty quickly without spending their life in prison for it.

katydid23 · Apr 7, 2012

LolaMoon08 said:
I understand that, but you said that you thought it could have been happening when they were struggling... we all heard them struggling... and there was only screaming... it wasn't a really loud verbal confrontion? Maybe I'm misunderstanding?

MOO

This 'new' witness seems to make this long argument begin earlier than we hear on the 911 calls. People do not call 911 at the moment the argument begins. It goes on for awhile before anyone calls. So we only hear THE END of the struggling/wrestling. According to her the arguing goes on for awhile, loudly.

LolaMoon08 · Apr 7, 2012

katydid23 said:
NOOOO, I don't think that is how it went. From what IU remember, she said this...

At THE END of my interview, as the dectective was leaving, I said how awful I was feeling after the hearing the whole sad thing, and he said, " IF it makes you feel any better, the guy who was screaming is still alive."

So he was not trying to alter her testimony, he was trying to make her feel better. Obviously with hindsight we can say he was wrong. But it was not malicious, imo. Just narrow minded.

Well, that makes it a little better, but still really wrong on the detective's part because he was supposed to be conducting an investigation, not giving out information that he would have no idea was true until it was investigated further.

That still leaves MC saying a detective "corrected" her statement.

Such a mess!

MOO

Chris_Texas · Apr 7, 2012

Beyond Belief said:
I still can't figure out how Zimmerman caught up with him, and I don't understand if you are watching someone suspicious why he didn't drive down to exit to see if the person was headed that way.

IMO

Zimmerman never did run directly after TM. Instead, he ran down the main street and then cut through between the buildings towards the middle sidewalk TM was walking down. This put him in front of TM, between TM and his home.

katydid23 · Apr 7, 2012

LolaMoon08 said:
Snipped respectfully... I don't think any witness has claimed to have seen how it started? It doesn't take away from the fact that they are witnesses. Everything we can get out of these witnesses, even if the stories don't match (which they never do with eye witnesses), it gives us something to go on.

We also don't know who this "witness" is because it may be possible that some of these calls have not been released... which I hope is not true? Until she gives her name... we have no idea who she is?

MOO

I think it was not released yet because she said she held her cell up to the window screen for LE to hear the arguing and fighting. So maybe they need that to be held back in case of a trial.

TonyGatto · Apr 7, 2012

Chris_Texas said:
IMO

Zimmerman never did run directly after TM. Instead, he ran down the main street and then cut through between the buildings towards the middle sidewalk TM was walking down. This put him in front of TM, between TM and his home.

That's exactly what I was getting at!

Nova · Apr 7, 2012

mercuriod said:
I think that GZ saw TM walking towards his dad's gf's back door as GZ was making his return trip, came up behind TM and grabbed him to "hold" him there for when the police arrive, he didn't want TM to get away before the police got there, as had happened so many times after GZ called the police on all the many "suspicious" kids he had already called them about in the past, remember "these a$$holes always get away". The police were probably sick of GZ, he knew they saw him as a fool who was always wasting their time, this time he was going to have "his person" in hand when they got there so not to look like the idiot he has always been in the past. I think when GZ grabbed TM, TM fought back (I know I sure as he l l would have) and was getting the better of "big man" GZ and GZ was not going to put up with that so he killed TM out of anger.

jmo, imo and all that jazz

I agree. There may have also been a struggle over the gun; I think the screaming on the 911 tape is TM wailing for his life.

m00c0w · Apr 7, 2012

Concerned Papa said:
There's a couple of other points that reinforce this "new" body location actually being right in front of this witness's home.

Out of this entire big development, somehow the first responder, Officer Timothy Smith, knew exactly where to park his squad car in order to walk directly between the ends of those buildings and to the body.

To further confirm the location of the body as being behind this witnesses residence, NOTICE THE ADDRESS shown as the incident address on the SPD report!

I thought Tracy Martin's recounting of the events was unassailable truth? What happened? :waitasec:

mdana · Apr 7, 2012

TonyGatto said:
The clear witness statement I refer to is the loud argument that preceded the shot. IMO, that means GZ is lying when he says he was the victim of a surprise attack or that they had a quick verbal exchange which then led to a life and death struggle.

I do not see how this proves anything. She stated there was arguing or shouting but gave no description of the time involved. Your idea of quick maybe 5-10 seconds may not coincide with mine of 30 seconds. She could not identify the two people because of the darkness. We will have to wait for her original police statement to be released to see if it corresponds with what she is claiming now.

highflyer · Apr 7, 2012

Concerned Papa said:
There's a couple of other points that reinforce this "new" body location actually being right in front of this witness's home.

Out of this entire big development, somehow the first responder, Officer Timothy Smith, knew exactly where to park his squad car in order to walk directly between the ends of those buildings and to the body.

To further confirm the location of the body as being behind this witnesses residence, NOTICE THE ADDRESS shown as the incident address on the SPD report!

How can the time reported, time dispatched and time arrived all be exactly the same time?

itsreenw · Apr 7, 2012

JeannaT said:
Thanks. It's interesting that the videotape doesn't have a time stamp that allows him to be more accurate about when Trayvon was there.

At a minimum, it took him 45 minutes to get back into the complex, or at any rate, 45 minutes (minimum) after purchasing the items he was still outside in the complex. Which leads to a question. What was he doing with that time? He wasn't going to the store and coming back, he was doing something else, likely innocent, but whatever it was is likely the reason he appeared suspicious to GZ.

And this IMO,is the whole problem. Why would he appear suspicious? Why does it matter how long Trayvon took to get to/from the store, at what pace he was walking, or why he was outside in the rain.

GZ didn't tell dispatch TM was trying to peer in windows, rattle car door handles, go up to anyone's front door. Nothing indicated he was breaking a law. GZ said TM was walking, looking at all the houses. Did GZ think he should be the only one allowed to roam the complex?

Trayvon should not have to account for doing what we all, as Americans, have the right to do. Live. Without being followed. Without being questioned for no reason. Without being shot dead at 17.

An individual should not have to defend his actions when they are minding their own business, taking a leisurely stroll, maybe staying outside while on the phone for better phone reception or maybe he just wanted some fresh air.
He did nothing that suggested he was going to commit a crime.

17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #18

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