Casey & Family Psychological Profile #2

Crazylovemonkee, think you need to go back and read what took place the evening CA went to Tl apt to confront Casey.

There are alot of big psych words thrown around - bipolar, narcissism, pathological, sociopath .. attention-seeking.

As a professional psychologist and psychiatrist, I strongly disapprove diagnosing people with various diseases without personally examining them, but we are all free to speculate. This goes for professionals as well as laymen. I want to clear some things up. I don't claim to know it all, I would just like a healthy discussion.

Is Casey A Narcissist?
Description: Narcissism is extreme self-love. Narcissists often think about marrying themselves, admire themselves, feel like they are the center of the world, even when they are denied. They have trouble empathizing and rationalize their wrong behavior even if it takes disregarding logic. That being said, it's not always a bad thing. Narcissism is very common in great leaders, innovators, etc. There is no connection between this personality and violence. Attention seeking is not narcissistic. Narcissists are actually almost NEVER insecure. They do not feel the need to lie, because they already think they are the best. They are not ashamed of their actions. Thus, they often don't sense when they are hurting others.
My Opinion: I do not believe she is any more narcissistic than other people. She seems to lack empathy, but this trait is not exclusively for narcissists. She does seek attention, twist words and tries to make puzzles out of everything. A true narcissist would not go so far to lie. They would probably be proud of something like murder.

Is Casey Bi-Polar?
Description: Bi-polar disorder is a depressive disorder. It can be identified when 2 things are present: Long bouts of depression, and manic high-energy moments. The most common type of bipolar sufferer experiences mostly depression, with one or 2 manic attacks in their lifetime. They will be considered "depressed" by a layman but they still have the biological disease called Bi-polar. There are other types, but this is the most common.
My Opinion: No, she is not. I haven't seen any evidence of extended periods of depression. Depressed people don't like to party, be around others, etc.


Lastly, I am surprised the Psychologists on NG don't speak up about this. Polygraphs (or any saline-related lie detectors) are only 61% accurate - a bit higher than chance. Over 30 states do not allow them to be admissible in court. In Flordia, unless both parties agree 100% on evidence, polygraphs cannot be used in court. It seems very backwards that they are putting so much emphasis on an outdated technology. They are useful to speed up criminal investigations, but personally, I would not take a polygraph except in an emergency. It is not accurate enough.

Mental health is a deep subject at the very least. Part of my thoughts are she (Casey) is a narcissistic, yes she CERTAINLY lacks empathy yet she has (from what I have seen in one's close to myself) a bi-polar behavior too.. ie, the spending , etc.. One's with bi-polar are not in constant state of depression, they can have very EXTEME high's manic periods and spend money. So, think myself Casey fits in both catagories

Straitfan said:

Mental health is a deep subject at the very least. Part of my thoughts are she (Casey) is a narcissistic, yes she CERTAINLY lacks empathy yet she has (from what I have seen in one's close to myself) a bi-polar behavior too.. ie, the spending , etc.. One's with bi-polar are not in constant state of depression, they can have very EXTEME high's manic periods and spend money. So, think myself Casey fits in both catagories

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The depression lasts way more than the highs. Casey is constantly on a high. I would not clasiffy her as bi-polar just from what I've seen. "Manic" is a good word for her.

Egoslayer said:

The depression lasts way more than the highs. Casey is constantly on a high. I would not clasiffy her as bi-polar just from what I've seen. "Manic" is a good word for her.

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Well, that depends on the individual and how long the high last, etc and dont think unless "we" have been with Casey for extended periods it isnt safe to predict she is on a high nor to say she has been. It varies from one to another and is certainly not something that is a straight-forward answer

I agree - I am just speculating. From cases I've seen - I really just doubt it. Her chances of having bipolar are slim - just me speculating.

I also am against saying she has any mental handicap (that is what these disorders are, that is why these people get help) I think she has no excuses. No mental state or feeling that made her do it. I think she was well-aware of what she was doing. She knew it was wrong but she did it anyway because she thought she could get away & she thought she could hide it & lie her way out of it.

I think a large piece of the puzzle is missing here, and there is a huge reason why Casey started hating Caylee. Psychologically alot is missing from motive. She seemed to be disassociated from her and no longer considered her her daughter.

Of course, I hope I'm wrong. I hope Caylee didn't suffer.

Egoslayer said:

I agree - I am just speculating. From cases I've seen - I really just doubt it. Her chances of having bipolar are slim - just me speculating.

I also am against saying she has any mental handicap (that is what these disorders are, that is why these people get help) I think she has no excuses. No mental state or feeling that made her do it. I think she was well-aware of what she was doing. She knew it was wrong but she did it anyway because she thought she could get away & she thought she could hide it & lie her way out of it.

I think a large piece of the puzzle is missing here, and there is a huge reason why Casey started hating Caylee. Psychologically alot is missing from motive. She seemed to be disassociated from her and no longer considered her her daughter.

Of course, I hope I'm wrong. I hope Caylee didn't suffer.

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I do agree, she certainly must have had to disassiocate herself to be capable of such a thing.. And she has appeared to continue to maintain her stance, though listen to her atty's comments, hmmm maybe it is sinking in (though I feel it is her own feelings of selfess sense, "poor me", think she has always felt she was smarter than everyone else. I agree TOTALLY she knew it was wrong, think that was her narissisatic self.. God, I'm glad I'm not a counselor, have bi-polar family member that is more than I can deal with as I tend to feel we all have chooses and makes it extremely difficult for myself to accept that maybe some don't nor can control themselves..

Egoslayer said:

I agree - I am just speculating. From cases I've seen - I really just doubt it. Her chances of having bipolar are slim - just me speculating.

I also am against saying she has any mental handicap (that is what these disorders are, that is why these people get help) I think she has no excuses. No mental state or feeling that made her do it. I think she was well-aware of what she was doing. She knew it was wrong but she did it anyway because she thought she could get away & she thought she could hide it & lie her way out of it.

I think a large piece of the puzzle is missing here, and there is a huge reason why Casey started hating Caylee. Psychologically alot is missing from motive. She seemed to be disassociated from her and no longer considered her her daughter.

Of course, I hope I'm wrong. I hope Caylee didn't suffer.

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Casey has been allowed to get away with a lot for a long time, her whole life.George and Cindy may be nice people, but to me they do not have very good parenting skills.Casey has been going down hill for a long time. C@G have allowed her to make her own decisions or bad decisions since High School. How does a senior in HS get as far as 2-3-days from graduating only to find out that they are 1/2 credit short. Where they not seeing her report cards or being informed by the school. She is immature for her age as well, especially being a mother. She was hanging out with single college minded, and young working adults. She was living and acting like she was still in High School.That was the life she wanted. Carefree with no responsibilities. She was able to live the last 2 years without a job, what were her parents thinking she was doing with her money.They never saw a pay check, never saw her with money, she lived at home, the car was in their name so they were paying the insurance, Cindy was paying for all of Caylee's needs, and she was complaining. So of her friends knew she was a liar and a thief. She changed friends when they were on to her. The new set of friends had not been in the picture long enough to see her lying and cheating ways. I don't know what her problem is, I think there may be a new diagnosis coming into the picture on this one. JMO

I lost count of how many times during the jail house visits with her parents Casey prefaced her remarks to their opinions and/or statements with "I KNOW" or "OH, I KNOW" to qualify her supreme self-confidence which IIRC is one of the hallmarks of narcissism.

I think that one of the most overlooked things in this case is the dynamics of this entire family.....although I truly believe LE has a good grasp on it.
There seems to be this huge control issue in this family. Not so much the issue of control but who is trying to control what. Long before poor Caylee went missing.
One of the biggest clues to this family's dynamics is CA's behavior. It seems as though her entire life is ruled by keeping control over how others view this family.
From what we have seen every thing about her is about controlling how her family is perceived and trying to control how they are perceived. However it seems as though the only member of this family who has control over CA is KC.
KC seems to be able to do what ever she wants and CA is right on her heels to cover it up and make it look like something else.
It is more than obvious that KC has learned the behavior of constantly lying to make herself appear to be something she is not from her mother.
This behavior is the norm and entirely excepted for this family.
Why the constant need to have a certain appearance to others.
Why?????
What is it that she and this entire family does not what anyone to know????
Is there some big family secret????
What is it that gives KC control over CA and how this family could be perceived?
I have pondered these questions for along time. And what it keeps leading me back to is a theory that many WS's have hit on.
I truly believe the key to this whole case starts with KC's pregnancy.
Who really is this baby's father???????
I truly believe that this is the issue that has created this power play, so to speak, in this family. And what is the cause of the dynamics of this family.

Why would a man that was a cop and a woman who is a nurse deny that their own daughter was even pregnant???? WTF....When it was blatantly obvious to others she was.
More importantly, why...why...why....does no one know or admit to who this child's father is??????
Why the need to go out of the way to try to pin the fatherhood on someone that she knew wasn't the father????(thank GOD Jesse had brains enough to has testing done)
Why the need to constantly change story of who father is....to only finally pin it on some poor dead guy(by the way how convienent)
I remember LP stating that LE knows who the father is....hmmmm!!

There are alot of unanswered questions that seem to lead to this family's bizarre behavior but quite possibly lead to understanding their entire family dynamics.
So my final question.....is CA's taking a stand and calling KC on her behavior, joblessness and lack of responsibility with her child and telling her that she needed to become responsible for them both....to keep up the charade of appearance .......the breaking point for KC???????

softsoul said:

<Wikipedia as an authoritative source? Surely, you jest?>

Interesting that you say that after you provided no links in either post...just a theory that you present as facts and the "truth" regarding any differences between sociopaths and psychopaths. However, are you disputing that the quote is indeed the official stance of the APA? If you are, I suggest you pick up a copy of the DSM and review. If not, what is your point?

As I indicated in another post, what you put out there as "fact" is only one of many theories involving the definitions and distinctions of psychopathy and sociopathy vs. antisocial personality disorder. Again, I ask, please provide a link and explain that you are sharing what you believe to be an accurate description of such differences, and not the only or the accepted definitions of such "syndromes". I am not disputing the information you are sharing as I know there are many who have this view. Instead I have issue with how you present it...as fact. How many different distinctions and definitions of sociopath and psychopath would say are out there? There are significant differences among any diagnositic category within the DSM...not all people diagnosed with Bipolar exhibit the same symptoms or intensity of symptoms, not all those with OCD, PTSD, etc., etc. It isn't a matter of overlooking differences, within people or within a diagnosis. It is a matter of stating 'this is one way to look at it" rather than "this is how it is."

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"Sociopathy" and "psychopathy" are alternate names for "antisocial personality disorder." DSM changes the names, from time to time. They all refer to the same constellation of symptoms. They are not different syndromes.

Brini said:

"Sociopathy" and "psychopathy" are alternate names for "antisocial personality disorder." DSM changes the names, from time to time. They all refer to the same constellation of symptoms. They are not different syndromes.

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I'm more inclined to consider some type of psychosis.

debs said:

Then you misunderstand: There's a vast discussion to be had about whether she can claim insanity as a defense. I never implied that was all we could discuss, however. It seemed as though discussion was getting mired in whether she was socio or psycho....and since even the experts have difficulty with the distinction, it made more sense to allow that she could have gone "shopping" in the pathological personality disorders department and has aspects of a lot of things. To be "right" as an amateur with nothing but sideliine seats about something that experts have already evaluated her for seems a pissing contest that is more divisive than helpful. That is all.

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Sociopath and psychopath are different names for the same personality disorder. Psychotic is a whole different thing.

KC does not fit the criteria for legal insanity, because she knew she did wrong and tried to escape the consequences.

Axis II disordered people are not psychotic, though they can become psychotic. KC is not psychotic. She is sociopathic.

sharpar said:

Casey doesnt fit the criteria for a defense by reason of insanity .

The defense has very clear parameters and criteria.

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This post says it all.

elfie said:

I'm more inclined to consider some type of psychosis.

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KC is not psychotic. If she was, she might be able to live productively on the correct medication. Psychosis is hard to miss, and would have been noticed early on. Thought disorders, including frank delusions and/or hallucinations, inattention to personal appearance, deficiencies in self-care....

Brini said:

Sociopath and psychopath are different names for the same personality disorder. Psychotic is a whole different thing.

KC does not fit the criteria for legal insanity, because she knew she did wrong and tried to escape the consequences.

Axis II disordered people are not psychotic, though they can become psychotic. KC is not psychotic. She is sociopathic.

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We have different opinions. The only opinions that will matter will be presented to the court.

crazylovemonkee said:

i Have never made a POST to this site ... like made a topic... sooo... how does it get to the top for discussion????.. I have had to search to find my own topic... alot of what is being discussed could easily fall under this topic....

WHAT caused a family dysfunction so bad that CAYLEE GAVE HER LIFE????????????

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Maybe bad genes. Maybe bad upbringing. Likely both.

bookworm474 said:

I have a thought as I try to get to sleep and can't. Usually something happens that is a trigger for violence. Could the video of Caylee's visit to the great grandparents on the 15th and the sweet and nice things that might have been said by Cindy about the visit trigger jealousy or resentment in Casey that Caylee was getting or showing loving attention that Casey believes she lacks. If Casey saw Caylee treated like she can do no wrong and at the same time Casey is treated as though she does nothing right even though she stole money, which was a substitute for love anyway, all that might trigger enough irrational hate, resentment, and anger that she has to eliminate the source of her pain for the moment. Attacking the more defenseless is typical. She didn't get what she needed by screaming at her mother as mother didn't get it.

Being told that you are not a good enough mother hurts to the core. Both women were in competition internally and Caylee was in the middle. Cindy might have been too insensitive to realize that Casey's low self esteem developed years before and Casey hid that. Obviously, Cindy hadn't paid enough attention to Casey's needs and instead focused more on her own. Casey's peer group didn't have the maturity to see any problems so Casey floundered in her morass of lucid dreaming blending into real life.

The trigger might have been the video and the reason she deleted all the pictures of Caylee from the computer.

The above mention of lies delaying scorn is truly relevant and Cindy just wasn't helping Casey grow up. She actually was pushing her away probably for a long time to save her marriage. Why didn't all three go into counseling?

The parents had no clue what was going on inside Casey.

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That's part of it, I think. KC was the perfect little coddled princess that could do no wrong, and did not have to ever grow up. She has a profound sense of entitlement. She was being replaced by Caylee, and forced to assume some responsibility.

As has been stated by others, NO MATTER WHAT KC's official diagnosis might be (cause I think we can argue about this until the cows come home and not resolve it)-----------HOW DID SHE GET THAT WAY? WHAT CAUSED IT? I believe that is the answer.........not the disorder itself. MOO

crazylovemonkee said:

The things that make us go HHHMMMMM..... that is what this thread is about.
And you are correct in saying the one person who could have ended this long ago will not talk....

But we can still deal with the family dynamics... Until the trial is over... KA will not talk... if she does then.. it will be with someone who builds a relationship with her over years in prision.... do I feel she will go to prision for a long time.... YES... KA is not going to talk about what happened in that family until she has nothing else absolutely to lose... right now she has benifit of the doubt that a jury will see the defense side of the story.... until that is gone and everyonje else... when she is alone in prison for life..WILL shetalk... maybe..... unless she is such a sociopath that she never admits anything... Like SP................Personally I think she is another SP>>>>>

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Personnaly, I think you are absolutely right.