Ex-FBI employee claims she saw angels at 9/11 Flight 93 crash site

believe09 said:

I had a similar experience in college-the professor escorted me to the door during a spirited debate and then explained there were other courses available that might just suit me better, lol. Oh to be young, smart and passionate like that again!

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You know, coming from a volunteer Sunday School teacher is one thing.

Coming from a professional who is paid to encourage young people to think and question, that is profoundly reprehensible.

Seek&Find said:

Oddly, I've had the opposite experience. As a MENSA member and a Christian, I've found that some nonbelievers, including a professor, were angrily flummoxed when I demurely pointed out a few flaws in their logic during vociferous objections to matters of faith. Neither "side", believer or non, has a lock on intelligence, inquisitiveness, or passion.

I only mention this as it seems there's an underlying vibe in the last few posts indicating belief means a lack of, or disdain for, those qualities, and that's unfair. I'm passionate about people and my faith, incredibly curious and always inquiring further, and truly an education & knowledge junkie. Not trying to say I'm great, I think everyone has different gifts and talents, just saying stereotypes don't fit. And, my church experience was that questions were embraced and the pursuit of understanding & knowledge encouraged. Sorry some others did not experience that.

All that said, as said before, I do questions bits about this particular story. So, an analytical believer. No :thud: needed. There are many others, thank God!

Besides, this is Websleuths. Sleuthing and analyzing is what we all do here. :websleuther:

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Seek&Find, I'm sorry if I helped to give you that impression. I have several college degrees and have taught at a several universities over a period of a couple of decades.

As I have said elsewhere, I am by no means an atheist. I don't think belief in spiritual forces is incompatible with analytical objectivity. I am only frustrated, on occasion, when posters don't seem to recognize a difference between the two.

(Or when people think their magical thinking should trump my civil rights. I'll admit to having a problem with THAT, but it isn't the issue here.)

Lera213 said:

non believers will not believe her, and believers will. I'm the later one.

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Me too. I have been after ZODIAC and truely believe I have stripped him of his power in that I am breaking his crackproof shell with the help of angels.

In this sutuation, she(author) was selected to witness for a reason. I have died before and was able to comeback before crossing over at the gate. I HAVE SEEN ANGELS and know they are real. God himself watches over me and I am sure he too is a gaurdian. I am glad this was posted, I felt a little better about my own, scary as hell, quest with this Zodiac. I think I was the one chosen to end his reign. (yes, I know he is alive and well)
May those who don't believe in angels soon see the light and the truth be reealed to them. (AMEN)
May all victims of murder be saved.

[video=youtube;l-XX0u4mnUg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-XX0u4mnUg[/video]


Video is a little better here:
http://www.angelsfortruth.com/blog/2010/04/famous-2-angels-and-child-video-stabilized/

The appearances of angels are different purposely as to different persons and occasions.

The appearance of an angel to Moses was as follows: When Moses was a shepherd in the desert, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush; and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, "Moses, Moses" (Ex. 3:2,4). Moses saw no face and no figure but the fire, and out of the fire he heard the voice calling him and instructing him as to what to do.

The appearance to whole people of Israel, when they fled from Egypt: And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, …and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light (Ex. 13:21).

This was not the Lord Himself but His angel. Moses confirms that: When we cried unto the Lord, He heard our voice, and sent an angel, and hath brought us forth out of Egypt (Num. 20:16). Here, as somewhere else, the angel is identified with the Lord, God. For My name is in him, says the Lord God (cf. Ex. 23:2021).

To Gideon an angel appeared as an ordinary man, just as the Archangel Raphael appeared to Tobias. Gideon understood that it was an angel only he saw a miracle performed by his unknown visitor. Then he exclaimed: Alas, O Lord God! For I have seen an angel of the Lord face to face (Judges 6:12-23).

To the wife of Manoah, who was barren and childless, an angel appeared with the news that she would have a son, Samson by name. Recounting this event to her husband, she said: A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible (Judges 13:6).

When the Syrians surrounded the place where the prophet Elisha lived, his frightened servant exclaimed: Alas, how shall we do? And Elisha answered: Fear not, for they that be with us are more then they that be with them.
And by the prayers of Elisha, the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and the he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire around about Elisha (II Kings 6:16-17). Of course, that was the host of God's angels sent to protect the righteous man.

To the prophet Ezekiel the angel was as the appearance of fire: from his loins even downward, fire: and from his loins even upward, as appearance of brightness, as the color of amber (Ezekiel 8:2).

The great prophet Daniel saw an angel as a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz. His body also was like the beryl and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in color to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude. So much was Daniel frightened that he says: Therefore I was left alone …and there remained no strength in me …and I retained no strength (Dan. 10:8). It was Archangel Gabriel (Dan. 8:16).

The same Gabriel appeared to Zacharias, the father of St. John the Baptist. And though his appearance was not so terrifying as that which Daniel saw, yet Zacharias, when he saw him, was troubled and fear fell upon him. And the angel said unto him: Fear not, Zacharias! (Luke 1:12-13).

As to the appearance of Gabriel to the Virgin Mary at Nazareth, we presume that the appearing was in a gentle human form, unlike those terrifying forms in which the angels appeared to the prophets of old. Yet, Mary was frightened and troubled. No wonder, for not only in extraordinary appearance frightens us, but also the suddenness of it. The angel therefore encouraged the Holy Virgin by saying: Fear not, Mary! (Luke 1:29030).

When our Lord Jesus was born, an angel appeared to the shepherds at Bethlehem. And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them: Fear not (Matt. 28:3-5).

The myrrh bearing women at the sepulcher of the risen Lord saw an angel: His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: And for fear of him the keepers (of the tomb) did shake, and became as dead men. To the women, however, the angel said: Fear not ye! (Matt. 28:3-5).

In no other sacred book is so much written about angels as in the Book of Revelation. St. John saw a multitude around the throne of the Highest. He describes them as clad in pure and white linen, having their breasts girded with golden girdles (Rev. 15:6). Very striking is the description of one of them: I saw, says John, another mighty angel came down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire …And he cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth (Rev. 10: 1, 3).
http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/angels.htm

You know, Nova, it's so hard to take you seriously when you denigrate people of faith by calling it magical thinking...

I don't doubt you. I'm just pointing out why I sometimes have a very hard time communicating with you.

As for instructors, I was their bane. I questioned everything, all the time. My absolutely most amazing instructor in junior college was my philosophy instructor; he was a devout Jew, and compared everything as to it's heritage in the jewish faith.

I sat there, night after night, with my Bible, debating him, questioning him, and really working it. He loved - LOVED it. I did too. And other students enjoyed our debates.

He never once told me I had magical thinking, although he believes very differently than I do. I never once told him he had magical thinking, either, and not because I was intimidated. LOL no.

Instead of insulting each other, we debated the issues of that lecture. I learned a ton, and, he said he learned a lot from me, as well. And that, to me, is what happens when respect is shown from both sides.

To state that you have faith, but other people who may have different faith, Nova, and that they have magical thinking...well...that's not a debate of the issues. That's an insult, and stops conversation.

Sorry. You know I call 'em like I see 'em...and it's without anger. I'm just pointing it out in a good example from your own fingers.

I honestly don't see why anyone has to say anything negative about the sighting of angels. How does that affect you in your daily life? You're completely allowed to NOT buy the book if you so choose.

Best-
Herding Cats

Herding Cats said:

You know, Nova, it's so hard to take you seriously when you denigrate people of faith by calling it magical thinking...

I don't doubt you. I'm just pointing out why I sometimes have a very hard time communicating with you.

As for instructors, I was their bane. I questioned everything, all the time. My absolutely most amazing instructor in junior college was my philosophy instructor; he was a devout Jew, and compared everything as to it's heritage in the jewish faith.

I sat there, night after night, with my Bible, debating him, questioning him, and really working it. He loved - LOVED it. I did too. And other students enjoyed our debates.

He never once told me I had magical thinking, although he believes very differently than I do. I never once told him he had magical thinking, either, and not because I was intimidated. LOL no.

Instead of insulting each other, we debated the issues of that lecture. I learned a ton, and, he said he learned a lot from me, as well. And that, to me, is what happens when respect is shown from both sides.

To state that you have faith, but other people who may have different faith, Nova, and that they have magical thinking...well...that's not a debate of the issues. That's an insult, and stops conversation.

Sorry. You know I call 'em like I see 'em...and it's without anger. I'm just pointing it out in a good example from your own fingers.

I honestly don't see why anyone has to say anything negative about the sighting of angels. How does that affect you in your daily life? You're completely allowed to NOT buy the book if you so choose.

Best-
Herding Cats

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HC, magical thinking is magical thinking, whether it's yours or mine. Whether the term is derogatory is rather a choice, don't you think? Since I have no problem owning my magical thinking, it doesn't offend me.

I certainly didn't mean to offend you.

Nova said:

HC, magical thinking is magical thinking, whether it's yours or mine. Whether the term is derogatory is rather a choice, don't you think? Since I have no problem owning my magical thinking, it doesn't offend me.

I certainly didn't mean to offend you.

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I don't know why I've suddenly lost the ability to edit my own message.

Anyway, I'm sorry if the above seemed abrupt, HC. I was literally running out the door to take somebody to the airport.

Upon my return, I looked up "magical thinking" in several online dictionaries and while the term can refer to personal delusions, it is also correctly used as I did, to address belief in the supernatural. The dictionaries caution that the latter isn't necessarily evidence of mental defect; nor did I imply any in my post above.

I don't happen to have any beliefs in the paranormal that would inspire me to restrict your civil rights, but if I did, it would be important for me to distinguish between my thinking about the magical and your undeniably real civil rights.

What does an ex FBI employee seeing angels have to do with civil rights?

Kimberlyd125 said:

What does an ex FBI employee seeing angels have to do with civil rights?

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Nothing. Herding Cats and I were discussing my use of the term "magical thinking".

I also don't quite understand the use of the phrase "civil rights" in this context...

To me, and I'd venture to say most folks, saying someone's faith is "magical thinking", which is a term applied regularly (and is considered a normal developmental milestone) to children, your use in this conversation is, to me, derogatory, as it's saying that someone is behaving childishly (e.g. at the magical thinking stage).

Because of that, I take offense. I don't denigrate anyone's faith, if it's true and honest to them. It has nothing to do with civil rights; it has everything to do with respect. I don't say it's magical thinking...because of the derogatory connotation when used in describing an adult.

But I also don't see the connection to civil rights.

And don't worry about it being abrupt. It's all good...although I do appreciate the time you've taken to make sure it wasn't offensive.

Best-
Herding Cats

Nova said:

beachy, I suspect our belief systems aren't as different as this thread may have led you to believe.

Let's recall that the writer arrived on the scene three hours after the crash and claims (apparently the claim is hers; again, it isn't a direct quote) to have seen "guardian angels protecting the crash site".

Protecting it from what? Litterers?

It is the assumption that the lights she saw must be "guardian" angels to which I object. We can play "Maybe" all day long, but I still see no reason why a "legion" of angels was protecting little more than a hole in the ground.

(Of course I was being facetious about not getting to Newark in time. I don't think supernatural beings are confined by space or time. But I will admit it strikes me as more than a tad random to believe we need "guardian angels" to protect us some of the time, only to ignore us when "it is God's will". If everything that happens is God's will, why do we need guardians in the first place?)

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I believe her story because I experienced this after my father's death. My father was a believer who died of cancer. After he passed, they removed the hospital bed from my childhood bedroom, and I spent the night there for the next week.

I am a rational person, but there were angels guarding the gateway to heaven through which my dad had passed. It was a large glowing protective presence, at least 2 of them. This was something I felt but did not see with my eyes. The room was so bright it was difficult to sleep...It was like a crime scene lit up by luminol. This lasted for about 2-3 days, and then they were gone.

The Biblical basis for this is the angels at the tomb of Jesus after he was resurrected. I do not believe these were guardian angels in terms of a personal guardian angel, but more like guard angels.

Given the number of deaths and the circumstances of passengers giving up their lives to prevent further deaths on the ground, it makes sense to me that this crash site was guarded by legions of angels.

If the angels didn't deliver a message then who knows if what the woman saw really them. I believe there are angels because there is plenty of scripture to back it up and any sunday school teachers should know the bible well enough to answer any questions. No one can explain everything and god included everything we need to know in scripture. Seeing what she believes were angels helped this woman and it's too bad it took this long for the info to come out. On the other hand,, she retired using the crash and then wrote a book. She could be using religion in the book hoping for a second career giving talks and selling more books. She is claiming spiritualtiy instead of being born again. So that with the angels not delivering a message makes me skeptical of her.

Ah well, yea or nay, a good excuse for a great Hendrix song:
[video=youtube;sWLpq1DP1P8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWLpq1DP1P8[/video]

twinkiesmom said:

I believe her story because I experienced this after my father's death. My father was a believer who died of cancer. After he passed, they removed the hospital bed from my childhood bedroom, and I spent the night there for the next week.

I am a rational person, but there were angels guarding the gateway to heaven through which my dad had passed. It was a large glowing protective presence, at least 2 of them. This was something I felt but did not see with my eyes. The room was so bright it was difficult to sleep...It was like a crime scene lit up by luminol. This lasted for about 2-3 days, and then they were gone.

The Biblical basis for this is the angels at the tomb of Jesus after he was resurrected. I do not believe these were guardian angels in terms of a personal guardian angel, but more like guard angels.

Given the number of deaths and the circumstances of passengers giving up their lives to prevent further deaths on the ground, it makes sense to me that this crash site was guarded by legions of angels.

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Why "guardian" angels? Why not "guiding" angels? Or "welcoming" angels" Or just "damn glad to see ya" angels?

Seems to me words are being used very casually here. From what does a transitioning soul need to be "guarded"?

(ETA my initial skepticism wasn't that the woman saw something, but that someone (apparently the newspaper reporter) assumed they were "guardian" angels. Another poster who has read the woman's book says she does not use the term "guardian". See above.)

What difference does a name or title make?

What some see and believe are guardian angels may be what others see and believe are guiding angels.
Others may title them differently.

I'm not really understanding the title issue to be quite honest.

Herding Cats said:

I also don't quite understand the use of the phrase "civil rights" in this context...

To me, and I'd venture to say most folks, saying someone's faith is "magical thinking", which is a term applied regularly (and is considered a normal developmental milestone) to children, your use in this conversation is, to me, derogatory, as it's saying that someone is behaving childishly (e.g. at the magical thinking stage).

Because of that, I take offense. I don't denigrate anyone's faith, if it's true and honest to them. It has nothing to do with civil rights; it has everything to do with respect. I don't say it's magical thinking...because of the derogatory connotation when used in describing an adult.

But I also don't see the connection to civil rights.

And don't worry about it being abrupt. It's all good...although I do appreciate the time you've taken to make sure it wasn't offensive.

Best-
Herding Cats

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Oh, please. The reference to civil rights was a parenthetical expression and I doubt anyone misunderstood it in context.

HC, why do your magical beliefs deserve my "respect"? Unless you can prove their validity, why are they more deserving than anyone else's imaginary notions? I don't demand that you "respect" my magical beliefs. You can agree with them or laugh yourself silly. It's all the same to me.

At the same time, slightly less than half of all Americans think I deserve fewer civil rights primarily based on their magical thinking. In their cases, I think it's quite reasonable that I not only don't "respect" their beliefs, I actively DISrespect them.

What you DO deserve is protection from discrimination because you hold beliefs in phenomena that cannot be observed. And that is provided by law.

Kimberlyd125 said:

What difference does a name or title make?

What some see and believe are guardian angels may be what others see and believe are guiding angels.
Others may title them differently.

I'm not really understanding the title issue to be quite honest.

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What difference does anything we discuss here make? These are casual conversations, not formal scientific inquiries.

But since you ask, if one doesn't assume that something supernatural is "guarding" one in the first place, maybe one's faith won't be threatened (as so many people report that it is) when something bad happens.

Nova said:

Why "guardian" angels? Why not "guiding" angels? Or "welcoming" angels" Or just "damn glad to see ya" angels?

Seems to me words are being used very casually here. From what does a transitioning soul need to be "guarded"?

(ETA my initial skepticism wasn't that the woman saw something, but that someone (apparently the newspaper reporter) assumed they were "guardian" angels. Another poster who has read the woman's book says she does not use the term "guardian". See above.)

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In my dad's case they appeared to be guarding a doorway, not the entrance to the room, but a heavenly entrance....and I use the word guarding because they were magnificent and powerful, and that's what they seemed to be doing. My dad's spirit had already passed and his body taken away, so he wasn't being guarded.

In the Christian belief system, angels are there to do God's will and to glorify Him, their purpose may not seem intuitive to you or me.

In my case, I have a science degree and am quite rational, not given to flights of fantasy or superstition. I was not overly emotional or grief-stricken at the time (more disbelief that he was gone and relieved that his suffering was over). This experience was the last thing I expected to happen.

Given my experience on the small scale, I can only imagine the spiritual impact of so many souls leaving earth at the same time and in the same place. Legions of angels sounds right to me.

I don't buy in to your sterotypical view of what a guardian angel is or what their job is. God and His angels did not interfere with the free will of the flight 93 hijackers to take down that plane. It was an evil act done by evil men.