FL - 17-yo Teen Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #5

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Column A: Evidence that GZ started the fight
*Targeted TM for looking "suspicious", called it in to 911
*Followed TM despite Neighborhood Watch guidelines that explicitly state not to
*Continued to pursue TM despite 911 operator instructing him not to (refusing to give a concrete location where LE could meet him is evidence, IMO, that he was continuing to pursue TM)
*Eyewitness statement from TM's girlfriend that TM was trying to get away from GZ and she was encouraging him to do the same.
*No indication from any of the evidence that TM was, at any time, pursuing GZ.
*TM is screaming for help (as evidence by eyewitness statements from the 911 callers).
*TM is found on his back, dead, with GZ on top of him.

Column B: Evidence that TM started the fight:
*I've got nothing, so please fill in the blank (and please source your evidence, as I did).

My links to support my argument are here:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/traynor-ma...-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017#.T29m1ngqNok

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...-zimmerman-never-tried-to-help-trayvon-martin

http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborho...s-questionable/story?id=15907136#.T29onXgqNom

I think all the reports and witness statements claim TM was lying face down and GZ was pressing on his back while straddling his body. So TM wasn't found on his back.
 
Do we have any knowledge as to where GZ is at the present time.. I realize he has not been arrested but is he in hiding or in protective custody?
He is free. In hiding is my guess - although authorities have said they know where he is.

HTH


JMHO
 
Column A: Evidence that GZ started the fight
*Targeted TM for looking "suspicious", called it in to 911
*Followed TM despite Neighborhood Watch guidelines that explicitly state not to
*Continued to pursue TM despite 911 operator instructing him not to (refusing to give a concrete location where LE could meet him is evidence, IMO, that he was continuing to pursue TM)
*Eyewitness statement from TM's girlfriend that TM was trying to get away from GZ and she was encouraging him to do the same.
*No indication from any of the evidence that TM was, at any time, pursuing GZ.
*TM is screaming for help (as evidence by eyewitness statements from the 911 callers).
*TM is found on his back, dead, with GZ on top of him.

Column B: Evidence that TM started the fight:
*I've got nothing, so please fill in the blank (and please source your evidence, as I did).

My links to support my argument are here:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/traynor-ma...-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017#.T29m1ngqNok

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...-zimmerman-never-tried-to-help-trayvon-martin

http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborho...s-questionable/story?id=15907136#.T29onXgqNom

That is not evidence that GZ started the altercation. All of those things could have happened and TM could still have started the fight. None of the facts we know of would preclude that possibility. The screams are not known to be from TM as of yet, and GZ sustained injuries. I would add that you're still getting facts wrong, as LE never ever told GZ not to follow TM.
 
I think it's very possible he attacked GZ at some point.

Can I ask why you think that? I'm not being snarky. I'm very interested and trying to understand where you are coming from.

And let me add an ETA: I do think it's possible that TM fought GZ, but only for self defense. He was trying to get away. Why would he turn around pursue GZ.
 
Does anyone really believe that Trayvon jumped out and attacked George Zimmerman as he was walking back to his truck (after checking for the name of a street sign in a neighborhood he had stalked since 2009)?

BEM: Please provide a link for his "stalking" this neighborhood since 2009. TIA
 
and facts broadly it seems and not necessarily evaluating all the circumstantial and peripheral evidence about GZ and not discussing the possibility of a hate crime here based upon GZ's history of targeting black youth for suspicion. There is a whole story here involving GZ and his actions that night but also on prior occasions. I think he's also a defense attorney isn't he? Nothing against them-they know the law but they do have a certain bias necessary to their job.

I also am pondering the evaluation of "legal right" to be somewhere and to do something . Ostensibly, both parties had a right to be where they were. But, if GZ was motivated by his decision that Trayvon was a criminal up to no good and likely to get away what was his intent in following and confronting him? How did he confront him and who was the physical aggressor? The majority of witnesses and his parents say Trayvon was the one screaming for HELP and he was found face down with his hands under him and with GZ standing over him. The forensics have a story to tell. The police action and inaction are relevant too. Credibility of GZ and the police is suspect so if all their testimony is discounted there doesn't seem to exist a lot of evidence of self defense or stand your ground.

Circumstantial evidence is good evidence too and I think the people now investigating will come up with a set of facts that will tell the true story based upon all the facts and circumstances. To me, there is a story thread here that tells a tale of a frustrated armed resident who's sick of black youth getting away with crime in that neighborhood so when he spots a black boy walking he decides that he must be a criminal and thus every thing the boy does is colored by that suspicion and he relates that to LE but is too anxious that this one might get away so he takes his gun to prevent this criminal from escaping. Then there's blanks to fill in but there's no evidence that he ever announced himself as a neighbor or neighborhood watch guy who just was looking out for the neighborhood and so is asking people he sees who they are. Why not? Perhaps because he had already made the leap to deciding the guy on drugs and up to no good and that the other a$%holes had gotten away.

Not being a FL or criminal law attorney I'm also curious about the jurisdictional and charging issues. If the DOJ wants to charge a hate crime I assume that is the case that would go forward. But can he also be charged under state law and then a separate charge and trial for a federal hate crime? I haven't really followed any hate crime trials so not aware of what they encompass nor how they interact with state charges.




Glad to see you again Richard! So was Trayvon expected to know that GZ was carrying a gun and not fight back in fear of a stranger stalking him?
 
I think it's very possible he attacked GZ at some point.

According to temporarily resigned Police Chief Bill Lee, Zimmerman jumped out of his truck to jot down a street address to give to 911 dispatchers and Trayvon jumped him from behind?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...case-george-zimmerman-bill-lee_n_1371635.html

We all know Zimmerman didn't jump out of the car to jot down a street address because he stated to the dispatcher, when asked if he was following Tray, he says "yep." After Zimmerman said Tray ran.
 
How do you know?

Many of my students had dark skin themselves and the problem of printing the photos so the faces were recognizable was a topic of discussion at many staff meetings. These were photos of honor students, student athletes, student leaders and staff members. The production team members were very happy when the administration allowed them to purchase PhotoShop for the production computers so that readers could see the features of their fellow students' faces.

Sure - I guess the some of the students who produced the paper could have have had some other reason. Can't think what it would be - but I guess you can read something sinister into any act if you want.

.
 
That is not evidence that GZ started the altercation. All of those things could have happened and TM could still have started the fight. None of the facts we know of would preclude that possibility. The screams are not known to be from TM as of yet, and GZ sustained injuries. I would add that you're still getting facts wrong, as LE never ever told GZ not to follow TM.

The dispatcher asked GZ if he was following TM and GZ said yes. The dispatcher then told GZ you don't have to follow him and GZ said okay. That lead the dispatcher to believe that GZ understood he did not have to follow TM that it was important for GZ to meet LE when they arrived. That is normal standard procedure on a call. They don't want you to get involved, that is their job. It was stated by a representative from the police department that this is what they advise all callers, let us handle it, it's our job. GZ knew better but would not listen. Facts were recorded on the phone call and by a statement released by an official with the police department. Their advice is not to follow a suspect, let them do it. It's safer for you, it's safer for the suspect (obviously in this case), it's safer for innocent bystanders and it is safer for the police officer. GZ put all those people at risk by not listening. jmo
 
Can I ask why you think that? I'm not being snarky. I'm very interested and trying to understand where you are coming from.

And let me add an ETA: I do think it's possible that TM fought GZ, but only for self defense. He was trying to get away. Why would he turn around pursue GZ.

I could very easily see a scenario in which TM was mad that he was being followed and started the fight. If GZ just wanted to kill a black kid, I doubt he would have called the cops and then allowed it to escalate into a fight. I also think TM easily could have ran away from GZ given their differences in size. Finally there was the witness who said TM was on top of GZ during the fight and GZ did sustain injuries. I doubt GZ would have just shot him unless he felt it was necessary.
 
issue here...for obvious reasons. When something doesn't make any sense it likely isn't true. I'm only an in house attorney but I am involved in lots of corporate investigations for internal and external fraud. I've learned alot from our investigators, the secret service, FBI etc in ferreting out the truth from people who have the incentive to lie. Most lies come undone because they produce inconsistencies or require a belief in illogical or convoluted actions. The truth is generally a simple story.




Does anyone really believe that Trayvon jumped out and attacked George Zimmerman as he was walking back to his truck (after checking for the name of a street sign in a neighborhood he had stalked since 2009)?
 
Many of my students had dark skin themselves and the problem of printing the photos so the faces were recognizable was a topic of discussion at many staff meetings. These were photos of honor students, student athletes, student leaders and staff members. The production team members were very happy when the administration allowed them to purchase PhotoShop for the production computers so that readers could see the features of their fellow students' faces.

Sure - I guess the some of the students who produced the paper could have have had some other reason. Can't think what it would be - but I guess you can read something sinister into any act if you want.

.

Maybe for the same reason I asked an artist who was painting my portrait when I was younger could she make me look 30 pounds thinner. lol She did.
 
According to temporarily resigned Police Chief Bill Lee, Zimmerman jumped out of his truck to jot down a street address to give to 911 dispatchers and Trayvon jumped him from behind?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...case-george-zimmerman-bill-lee_n_1371635.html

We all know Zimmerman didn't jump out of the car to jot down a street address because he stated to the dispatcher, when asked if he was following Tray, he says "yep." After Zimmerman said Tray ran.

That of course is not the only possible scenario. Trayvon could have doubled back and I doubt GZ would have been able to get close to him unless Trayvon allowed it. As we keep hearing, he outweighs TM, a football player, by 100 lbs.
 
Many of my students had dark skin themselves and the problem of printing the photos so the faces were recognizable was a topic of discussion at many staff meetings. These were photos of honor students, student athletes, student leaders and staff members. The production team members were very happy when the administration allowed them to purchase PhotoShop for the production computers so that readers could see the features of their fellow students' faces.

Sure - I guess the some of the students who produced the paper could have have had some other reason. Can't think what it would be - but I guess you can read something sinister into any act if you want.

.
I may have misread your meaning. I thought you were saying the only reason the newspaper in this case lightened the photo was for innocent purposes. I may have misunderstood.
 
I have really heard everything now.

Friend Suggests Zimmerman Used ‘Term Of Endearment,’ Not Racial Slur, Before Killing Trayvon Martin

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/03/25/451392/friend-zimmerman-racial-slur-term-of-endearment/

Wow...

I've never heard the term "goon" used as an endearing term. This friend is going to look absolutely stupid when the tape is analyzed.

I'm also VERY offended that the lawyer has trotted out a token "black friend" to go on the defensive. JMO MOO IMO
 
Songline, if he was acting as a Watch person, if in fact, as you maintain, he had a duty to do so, then did he not also have a duty to follow the rules of the Neighborhood Watch organization? I don't think you should be able to cloak yourself in the authority of an organization while flagrantly flouting it's rules.

I find it significant that Zimmerman does not identify himself as a member of the Neighborhood Watch to the dispatcher when he calls. Or at least nowhere I could find. I also find it significant that Chief Lee stresses that George was on a personal errand at the time of the incident. Moo

http://news.yahoo.com/george-zimmerman-why-did-shoot-trayvon-martin-141231964.html

We don't in fact know the HOA even has written rules for their watch program? And even if they do they could be very poorly written they may make no mention of forbidding the carrying of a firearm while on patrol... Just sayin' :confused:

However, if what the Chief of SP says is true this gives Mr. Zimmerman much more latitude as a private citizen. As he would not be bound by any such rules of the Neighborhood watch...

Nonetheless, I agree he should announced who he was and why he was seeking to speak with Mr. Martin. However we don't in fact know that he didn't do that just before the face to face confrontation...

There is just way too much mystery surrounding this incident and little to no facts available to know what really happened. I've said this over and over again, I think in the end we're going to be faced with the sad reality, that this was a tragedy cultivated by missteps and errors on both individuals part... Each thinking the other was out to get them and that lead to many mistakes. But that's what happens when we teach people to be overly suspicious and paranoid.
 
I think 46 complaint calls to LE over such a short period of time gives us an idea of what GZ's motivation was.
 
Wow...

I've never heard the term "goon" used as an endearing term. This friend is going to look absolutely stupid when the tape is analyzed.

I'm also VERY offended that the lawyer has trotted out a token "black friend" to go on the defensive. JMO MOO IMO

It's not fair to call him a token friend imo. What are you basing that on? Again, it seems to be all about minimizing anything that paints GZ in any positive light.
 
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