WV - Sodder Family - 5 children, Christmas eve 1945 - #3

After doing some over the phone interviews and some new searching I have a few questions for granddaughter. One old woman I talked to was in her early twenties living in Fayetteville, WV the night these children, Died/Went Missing. She told me that this mystery really got to her because she had to pass the billboard when it was put up on her way home. Her belief was that anyone would have given the kids back, even the mob, for that much money back than. She said she would hear other people talking about how they believed the kids were dead. But the bodies wouldn't be totally gone either. Than she asked me a question I could not answer, did the Sodder family have a well? I thought about that but it didn't dawn on me, at what she was getting at. Why in the heck would the kids try to play with a well, near a well, etc? She said, "Because you know, if they went to the well to get some water to try and put out the fire, and it was nighttime and dark out, couldn't they have fallen INTO the well? Did anyone check that?". I didn't know what to say. This had NEVER occurred to me. The second thing she said sent chills up my spine, she said, "And if they DIDN'T have a well, and the kids tried to walk down to a stream or something to get water if one had fallen in and was being swept away, were they the kind of children to let it happen, or would they have tried to jump in after the one who got swept away?" Both of these ideas have stuck with me. Granddaughter, you are the only one who might know the answer to this. Did they have a well, and if so was it searched? And if not, did they have a fast moving stream nearby? Was there an emergency fire plan? Back than most people didn't have them, but if the plan was say for the oldest children and the father to go down to the water to fetch some to put out the fire, but the children believed the father and older children were locked in the house, and couldn't get out, surely they would have tried to do it to save them, right? Just some thoughts. I also was called back by that orphanage, and no luck as of yet on the photo they are searching for. But they are still searching. Children's aid society is STILL looking as well. I also found a few TIME magazines and have looked through them but no luck yet on the photo. I am not quitting. Sorry for the delays.

I have another question. Someone else I spoke with told me that she was only eight when the kids went missing. She said she and other children were terrified of what might have happened, while most of the adults agreed with the fire department that the children had been killed in the fire and their bodies destroyed. Anyway, she said when she was ten she heard some grown-ups talking about "sparing parents" from seeing "that". She said it was so odd she remembers it to this day. She told me it was while she was cleaning the kitchen. She said during the same conversation she had heard them mention in quiet tones the Sodder kids. Still wondering if it was an unofficial thing to hide the bodies from the parents if the bodies were severely mutilated, were like watching a horror movie. Could Fayetteville firemen have taken it upon themselves to hide these bodies? I mean the thing is it sounds as though they were hiding something, thus the bringing out some bones, (much less tramatic to see), bringing out the liver, etc. If they had just buried the bodies after hiding them someplace, we'd never know where the real burial places were, but I would guess that they would be buried not too far from the Sodder's home. Just a thought. Perhaps they thought it was a kindness, but it turned out to be just a cruelty. Sometimes people try to be kind and end up being quite cruel without meaning to.

It is entirely possible I guess for those children to have been stolen by family from Florida. But WHY? That's what I want to know. Could it be possible that Frank was called by someone from Fayetteville and told the kids were in danger? And would Frank have taken this into his own hands to save the children? Without telling his brother? Another weird thing to this is why in the world would he have set fire to the home if he cared that much? Wouldn't he be frightened that George and Jennie and the older children might have perished in the fire? The only other possibility I could think of is the following scenario:::

George is frightened when he is told his children would pay and his home would burn

So instead of waiting for it to happen he does it himself.

And by this I mean he has his wife and children sitting outside, he has his wife's brother waiting for the kids he tries to send the baby but his wife cannot part with the baby so they make up the excuse that the baby was in the bedroom with Jennie and George

He sets the house ablaze

He runs his ladder far away so he can try and say that it wasn't there to get to the kids

They pour sugar in their own gastanks so the cars won't start and says I couldn't get up to my kids rooms

But if this is the truth why did he search for the kids? To get the mob off of his tail? It just doesn't make sense. Most of this doesn't make sense. And I don't think George would send his kids away and than spend (Literally) the rest of his life searching for them

I'm printing again for Mom. I think I know most of the questions, but before I misspeak, I'll run it all past her.

Okay just had a thought. Here is another scenario which makes a little more sense than the first one I had.

Jennie's brother has an informant call him and tell him to get to Fayetteville right away, and that the mob is going to hit the house, set it ablaze on Christmas eve, and if this was done, is it possible that he called the house to wake Jennie up, anonymously of course, and maybe even potentially threw something onto the roof to wake them up? If that happened, and say, the smaller kids were playing outside when the brother showed up maybe he told them to come with him. And of course, if they knew or were close to their uncle they would go. Could it be possible that he took them away because he wanted to protect them or was afraid that if the children ever told their parents or someone in Fayetteville it would get back that he was the one who helped to save the children from the mob? That he saved George and Jennie and the kids? By making the phone call, and throwing something on the roof? And one other things, they had a partial tin roof, right? In my letter from the fire dept, he said he has seen fires that started from Lighting hitting the roof. Would a tin roof be like a calling card for lightning to hit it? I'm wondering, would tin attract lightning? And if it did, would it sound like a big bang like what Mrs. Sodder reportedly heard on the roof? Another question about that, if she heard a big boom that sounded like it came from the roof, could that have just been some lightning and thunder? Okay cause if lightning struck the roof, could it be plausible that she heard thunder boom in the sky really loud? That could prove there was a lightning storm outside. You don't need rain to have an all out lightning storm, right? So if there was no stealing of children, etc, it could have just been a freak lightning strike that hit the roof which started the fire.

Was Janutolo in the mafia? What was the connection with Janutolo and Joseph Cipriani?

catsy101 said:

George is frightened when he is told his children would pay and his home would burn

So instead of waiting for it to happen he does it himself.

And by this I mean he has his wife and children sitting outside, he has his wife's brother waiting for the kids he tries to send the baby but his wife cannot part with the baby so they make up the excuse that the baby was But if this is the truth why did he search for the kids? To get the mob off of his tail? It just doesn't make sense. Most of this doesn't make sense. And I don't think George would send his kids away and than spend (Literally) the rest of his life searching for them

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Catsy, great to see you back and in full swing! This one theory I seriously doubt because Mr. Sodder laid in the back of a car and had his son drive him around looking for the children in the last year of his life when he was dying of cancer. Mr. Sodder's arm was also cut and the older boys hair was burned trying to save the children.

I trend to go with your theory of the Cipriani family taking the children out of fear that Sodder's children would be killed, as was threatened. The theory of the "well" is interesting too. I am sure there were many in the area during that time period. Good way to get rid of them without anyone ever finding them.

Remember, also Frank Cipriani had a son named Frank, Jr. who was close in age (within a couple of years) of Louis. He could be "Brother Frankie".

Still haven't found the magazine but will keep looking.

This is probably the most confusing case I have ever seen. I think hiding the bodies and never letting the family know for sure that they had burned in the fire would be far worse than letting them see the bodies. At least seeing the bodies, or knowing there were reminds found would have brought closure which never happened while the Sodder's were living.

bluesky said:

Was Janutolo in the mafia? What was the connection with Janutolo and Joseph Cipriani?

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I don't know if Janutolo was in the mafia. However, both cousins were prominent business men in Fayetteville however. Even today, there is a park named for them (I think they donated the land), in Fayetteville.

I don't know the real connection between Janutolo and the Cipriani's but undoubtly there was since Janutolo was concerned about settling Cipriani's estate.

catsy101 said:

Okay just had a thought. Here is another scenario which makes a little more sense than the first one I had.

Jennie's brother has an informant call him and tell him to get to Fayetteville right away, and that the mob is going to hit the house, set it ablaze on Christmas eve, and if this was done, is it possible that he called the house to wake Jennie up, anonymously of course, and maybe even potentially threw something onto the roof to wake them up? If that happened, and say, the smaller kids were playing outside when the brother showed up maybe he told them to come with him. And of course, if they knew or were close to their uncle they would go. Could it be possible that he took them away because he wanted to protect them or was afraid that if the children ever told their parents or someone in Fayetteville it would get back that he was the one who helped to save the children from the mob? That he saved George and Jennie and the kids? By making the phone call, and throwing something on the roof? And one other things, they had a partial tin roof, right? In my letter from the fire dept, he said he has seen fires that started from Lighting hitting the roof. Would a tin roof be like a calling card for lightning to hit it? I'm wondering, would tin attract lightning? And if it did, would it sound like a big bang like what Mrs. Sodder reportedly heard on the roof? Another question about that, if she heard a big boom that sounded like it came from the roof, could that have just been some lightning and thunder? Okay cause if lightning struck the roof, could it be plausible that she heard thunder boom in the sky really loud? That could prove there was a lightning storm outside. You don't need rain to have an all out lightning storm, right? So if there was no stealing of children, etc, it could have just been a freak lightning strike that hit the roof which started the fire.

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It was the middle of winter so I highly doubt there was any lightening and even if it did the roof was tin. I don't think anybody would have put sugar in the gas tanks of the truck(s) It was winter and probably below zero so that alone could have kept them from starting and even if they did put sugar in the gas tanks they would have at least started and ran for who knows how long. I also do not buy the theory of Mr Sodder doing this all himself. He searched for those kids until the day he died. The well or creek idea is something to think about.

fox1950 said:

I don't know if Janutolo was in the mafia. However, both cousins were prominent business men in Fayetteville however. Even today, there is a park named for them (I think they donated the land), in Fayetteville.

I don't know the real connection between Janutolo and the Cipriani's but undoubtly there was since Janutolo was concerned about setting Cipriani's estate.

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Did I miss something? Where did the name Janutolo come from? Who was he? I have never heard of him until now :waitasec:

In the older articles about this case they mentioned the incident about the man his threats and that Mr. Sodder later learned he was part of the inquest jury that ruled the deaths accidental, but they don't mention the man's name. When Stacy Horn got involved and did her story for NPR, she did include Janutolo's name. I can't remember if it was in her original story or in the info she posted later on her website. After that, there was some discussion about it on this website. I think it was the first thread, but it may have been the second.

I first read about this case last November and became so interested that I spent a few days just reading all the old articles and WS posts about the case. I wanted to post my ideas back then, but had trouble joining with my email at the time. Now that I have joined, I keep posting things about things I read a while back, so I'm sorry I'm confusing people.

Once in a while I think it might have been an accident and they died that night too, because none of the conspiracy stories completely make sense, but then when I go back and read about all of the weird things that happened, it seems there must be more to it. Janutolo is part of it, but also the guy who cut the phone lines and stole the block and tackle, then the ladder being moved. I just can't believe it's all coincidental.

I agree as stated in the message I really do not believe that George would have looked for the children if he knew darned well where they were. The only thing I can conceive of for doing that if he knew what happened to the kids would be to keep the mob off the kid's trail, but he wouldn't have gone so far. It would have been the biggest most elaborate hoax in history with no end and no real good reasoning behind it. Everything I have heard or read about George suggests he was of a good mind and wasn't a crazy person just searching for no reason. As for a well, it could have been accidental or it could have been a place to hide bodies. Whether it was a mob hit or a kindness by local firefighters to spare the parents remains yet to be seen. Does anyone also know if anytime around this time any bodies were fished out of a local stream? Back than it would have been hard to identify bodies and no one would have thought to ask Mr or Mrs Sodder about it because everyone agreed the kid's bodies were burned in the fire to ashes.

Were the kids close to their uncle? Would they have gone with him willingly? Would he have been the kind of person not to tell his sister and let her go through this kind of grief? Did George AND Jennie believe her family had the kids, or was it George who insisted they had the kids and went out there? Anyone know?

ALSO have another idea here totally unrelated to the first ---

I wish I could see the back of the photograph of the supposed "Louis Sodder". Ilil Boys. Was It written that way? Or could it have been Ill boys? If it was Ill boys, perhaps he was saying the boys were sick in the house or something of that nature. I would think though that perhaps the numbers were not an area in Italy. Because the brother frankie part doesn't work if Frankie was living in Florida. Unless... Anyone know if Frankie was sent to Italy? Like to a boarding school or to visit family or something? And if he was sent there, perhaps Louis was sent with him? Kind of, until the police got off of the family's trail?

Granddaughter can you find this out please? if Frankie JR was ever sent with his family or to a boarding school or something in Italy? Do you have any contact with that side of the family?

Also on a side note, any predators in that area? Animals I mean at the time? Anything that would have attacked five small children playing outside in the dark?

One more idea sorry to bombard everyone but

If it was Ill Boys and Brother Frankie could Louis have been placed in an orphanage? Brother Frankie could be referring to a holy man who ran an orphanage Ill Boys could mean the boys staying there were sick, something very common in large orphanages were sickness ran rampant most of the time, the photo could have been a photo taken, (I read somewhere that a lot of the orphans in New York were photographed and sometime placed in newspapers to find potential parents), and the numbers, well not sure about the numbers. Could be anything with the numbers.

catsy101 said:

I agree as stated in the message I really do not believe that George would have looked for the children if he knew darned well where they were. The only thing I can conceive of for doing that if he knew what happened to the kids would be to keep the mob off the kid's trail, but he wouldn't have gone so far. It would have been the biggest most elaborate hoax in history with no end and no real good reasoning behind it. Everything I have heard or read about George suggests he was of a good mind and wasn't a crazy person just searching for no reason. As for a well, it could have been accidental or it could have been a place to hide bodies. Whether it was a mob hit or a kindness by local firefighters to spare the parents remains yet to be seen. Does anyone also know if anytime around this time any bodies were fished out of a local stream? Back than it would have been hard to identify bodies and no one would have thought to ask Mr or Mrs Sodder about it because everyone agreed the kid's bodies were burned in the fire to ashes.

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The fire could not have burned hot enough to cremate them to ashes. There would have been bones left behind and there wasn't

OK...this might be a crazy question..but, I'm askin' anyway.

This happened so long ago. Could we go back now, to this area, and resift, re go through, test, yada yada? Technology has come so far. Or nahhhh. ?

I hope the area is resifted and searched again with modern equipment. It seems like I read on one of the earlier threads that the great-grandson Jonathan was trying to get that done. I think he said the current owners had agreed to it, but I don't remember reading that it ever happened.

I've been rereading the first thread tonight, and the first mention I see of Janutolo is post #347, and then several messages after that give alot of info about both of the Janutolo cousins.

LButler had a lot of interesting posts and I formed some of my opinions from them. In one of them she said that her father had worked for Janutolo and that she thought that Fire Chief Morris had been his bookkeeper. Could this be checked out somehow? I still think Janutolo's connection to the Cipriani estate might be something that could be uncovered somehow. Also, was he involved in selling legitimate life insurance? I still don't know if he was a mobster, but you always see the stereotypical mob guys on TV and in the movies who make innocent small businessmen pay for protection to keep bad things from happening to them, and that's the impression I get from this insurance thing.

Many of the old posts on the original thread keep talking about another forum that has a lot of good info, particularly about the Ciprianis. They keep mentioning someone on it called Lablover who had been trying to join WS. I can't find the forum, so can anyone lead me to it if it's still running?

Catsy, I like your idea about Frank possibly getting a phone call of warning it would happen. It makes more sense to me than most theories.

One last thing: the boys were reminded to do there chores before going to bed, apparently feeding the cows and locking the chicken coop. I remember reading something about Mrs. Sodder finding the lights stiil on and I can't remember if I read the door was open or not, but I guess she found it that way when she was woken by the phone call, so she turned off the lights and went to bed. Does anyone know whether it appeared the chores had been done or not? Were the chickens locked up? In all the commotion of the fire, who knows if anone would have even noticed.

#155 was posted by granddaughter concerning the dig.

Quote...Mom remains convinced that the excavation done by Oscar Hunter, MD, was thorough and conclusive. He was an impressive man and a national leader in pathology. Anyone who would return to the site now would have no greater credentials than he did. Photos of the excavation are posted on the Sodder children website. http://www.sodderchildren.com.