Some RDI musings

The location in the house the head blow took place is very significant because that reveals what was happening at that time and probably reveals the motive for the head blow/why it happened. It might also reveal the weapon used to inflict the head blow or eliminate certain items from being that weapon (as those items would not be in that location TO be used as the weapon).

Additionally, the weapon used may indicate the location in the house where the head blow was inflicted. For example, if a golf club was the weapon, then the location was where the golf club was normally stored: ie the basement. If a toilet rim or faucet inflicted the head wound, then an upstairs bathroom was the location. If the Maglight flashlight was the weapon, this indicates the location was somewhere a flashlight would be needed, such as a dark room even though all rooms in the Ramsey house had lights, including the basement rooms. (My thought is that the flashlight was not the head bash weapon but was just staging to support IDI).

Consensus is that the strangulation death happened by the paint tray, outside the cellar door. Now this is significant, when you think about it, and leaves us with two possibilities, as follows:

The head bash took place upstairs, and then JB was carried down to the basement afterwards. In this case, the activity that led to the head bash was taking place upstairs. Why would they bring their dying daughter down to the basement from upstairs? What sense would that make? It is not logical for them to do that.

The head bash took place in the basement. In this case, the activity that led to the head bash was taking place in the basement. Why would this activity be taking place in the basement? To keep it a secret from other family members. If their daughter was already in the basement when the head blow was inflicted, then it would make perfect sense to leave her down there for the later strangulation. So to me it makes sense that everything happened in the basement: The activity leading up to the head bash, the head bash, and finally the strangulation.

Anyhoo said:

Consensus is that the strangulation death happened by the paint tray, outside the cellar door. Now this is significant, when you think about it, and leaves us with two possibilities, as follows:

The head bash took place upstairs, and then JB was carried down to the basement afterwards. In this case, the activity that led to the head bash was taking place upstairs. Why would they bring their dying daughter down to the basement from upstairs? What sense would that make? It is not logical for them to do that.

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It is logical. They could not leave her upstairs if they planned to pull out fake kidnapping thing. Even the dumbest policeman in the world would not believe in a perp, writing lenghty ransom note ad leaving the intended victim of the kidnapping in her bedroom. That would be a little too obvious.

Hexe said:

It is logical. They could not leave her upstairs if they planned to pull out fake kidnapping thing. Even the dumbest policeman in the world would not believe in a perp, writing lenghty ransom note ad leaving the intended victim of the kidnapping in her bedroom. That would be a little too obvious.

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No, what I am saying Hexe is does it make sense that the head bash was inflicted upstairs and the strangulation inflicted in the basement? Why would they bring their dying daughter downstairs to kill her? To me that does not make sense. Picture it: JB has a very severe head wound and is upstairs. The parents do not know what to do about it at first. Why would they bring her to the basement at that point? What would be the reason?

I understand that eventually she would have to be down in the basement to support the kidnapping story, but I am talking about before that. I mean before the strangulation.

I didn't used to believe the head bash happened in her bed, but now I feel that someone had the flashlight in order to see in the dark in her bedroom, and it was the weapon used to bash.

I think someone (JR? upon discovering what has happened?) brought her downstairs and did the strangulation (possibly not realizing she wasn't yet dead) in order to stage the kidnapping.

JMO

Tawny said:

I didn't used to believe the head bash happened in her bed, but now I feel that someone had the flashlight in order to see in the dark in her bedroom, and it was the weapon used to bash.

I think someone (JR? upon discovering what has happened?) brought her downstairs and did the strangulation (possibly not realizing she wasn't yet dead) in order to stage the kidnapping.

JMO

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If it were the case that JR, upon discovering the head bash, brought her to the basement to do the strangulation, are you saying that she was brought to the basement as part of the staging? You think the idea for the fake kidnapping and staging for it happened prior to the strangulation? If so, how soon after discovery of the head bash do you think JR came up with the idea of the fake kidnapping? Do you think he came up with the idea entirely on his own or do you think he received advice over the telephone that led him to this idea?

Anyhoo said:

If it were the case that JR, upon discovering the head bash, brought her to the basement to do the strangulation, are you saying that she was brought to the basement as part of the staging? You think the idea for the fake kidnapping and staging for it happened prior to the strangulation? If so, how soon after discovery of the head bash do you think JR came up with the idea of the fake kidnapping? Do you think he came up with the idea entirely on his own or do you think he received advice over the telephone that led him to this idea?

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That's exactly what I think. I think they thought the bash killed her, so they came up with the kidnapping scenario, brought her to the basement and did the strangulation. I think it happened pretty quickly. I think the scream probably brought the parents and the bash had happened directly after (maybe? not solid on whether I believe that yet ) so it was like: scream...bash...parents run in, quick succession.

I don't know about getting info over the phone, but it's a possibility. I do think he decided they should stage a kidnapping really soon after the head bash.

Tawny said:

I do think he decided they should stage a kidnapping really soon after the head bash.

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That is what I don't get. It would not be natural for a parent who was suddenly faced with this situation to spontaneously and quickly come up with this idea. Additionally, if I were a parent who was planning to do this, I would be deathly afraid of making one or more mistakes that LE would uncover that would point back to myself as the one staging. I would not only not know what to do, I would not know how to do it effectively in such a way that LE could not uncover the ruse. So I just don't understand how the decision to stage the kidnapping could be formed so quickly and began to be implemented. JR does not seem like someone to take such huge risks on his own unless he knew one or more other people (outside of PR) were or would be helping him in the cover up.

Maybe they got the kidnapping idea from a movie or book. She could have been moved to the basement just because they didn't know where else to place her and maybe it was discovered down there that she was still alive and that's when the strangulation came.

JMO

Anyhoo said:

That is what I don't get. It would not be natural for a parent who was suddenly faced with this situation to spontaneously and quickly come up with this idea.

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Who said they came with that idea quickly? It seems that in between the headbash and the strangulation went some amount of time. Spent, I think, on deliberating what to do.

Additionally, if I were a parent who was planning to do this, I would be deathly afraid of making one or more mistakes that LE would uncover that would point back to myself as the one staging. I would not only not know what to do, I would not know how to do it effectively in such a way that LE could not uncover the ruse.

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Ramseys didn't knew it either. They made a lot of mistakes.

So I just don't understand how the decision to stage the kidnapping could be formed so quickly and began to be implemented. JR does not seem like someone to take such huge risks on his own unless he knew one or more other people (outside of PR) were or would be helping him in the cover up.

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I think the cover -up was done in tandem, by Patsy and John. It was not a solo thing.

I have always felt the weapon was the heavy flashlight found in the kitchen area. Some LE and forensic experts agree and at least one has matched the flashlight to a similar hole made in a "model" skull.
The flashlight was kept in the kitchen area in a drawer, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have been used somewhere else. It is entirely possible she was bashed in or near her bedroom. She would have instantly collapsed and I can envision a parent carrying her "seemingly" lifeless body to the basement. At this point, the plans were being frantically formed, and the staging planned as well. The idea to add a strangulation device fits perfectly with the theory that the parent(s) needed to offer a VISIBLE cause of death (as the head bash was not visible to the eye). However, she was still alive. I have long gone back and forth on the strangulation. There was no struggle (according to the circumferential ligature furrow and lack of any evidence of movement of her tongue and mouth). Now here's the dilemma. Did they know she was alive? If not, they certainly would not have known about the color of the ligature furrow indicating that. Or the lack of evidence that she struggled against the tape. If they DID know- the only thing I can think of is at that point there was no going back. She obviously had not regained consciousness and they may have felt she was "gone" at that point anyway. I do believe evidence points to the garrote being applied in the basement, near the paint tote.
The small pieces of artificial greenery found in her hair could have come from the garland on the stair rail, sure. But it could also have come from the basement floor. Artificial trees were kept in the wine cellar, and she was placed under the Christmas tree in the living room, also an artificial tree. Had the bits of greenery been tested against the garland on the rail, we could at least have been able to say with certainty that she had been carried down those stairs. It would be a big help in trying to determine where she had been bashed.

DeeDee249 said:

I have always felt the weapon was the heavy flashlight found in the kitchen area. Some LE and forensic experts agree and at least one has matched the flashlight to a similar hole made in a "model" skull.
The flashlight was kept in the kitchen area in a drawer, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have been used somewhere else. It is entirely possible she was bashed in or near her bedroom. She would have instantly collapsed and I can envision a parent carrying her "seemingly" lifeless body to the basement. At this point, the plans were being frantically formed, and the staging planned as well. The idea to add a strangulation device fits perfectly with the theory that the parent(s) needed to offer a VISIBLE cause of death (as the head bash was not visible to the eye). However, she was still alive. I have long gone back and forth on the strangulation. There was no struggle (according to the circumferential ligature furrow and lack of any evidence of movement of her tongue and mouth). Now here's the dilemma. Did they know she was alive? If not, they certainly would not have known about the color of the ligature furrow indicating that. Or the lack of evidence that she struggled against the tape. If they DID know- the only thing I can think of is at that point there was no going back. She obviously had not regained consciousness and they may have felt she was "gone" at that point anyway. I do believe evidence points to the garrote being applied in the basement, near the paint tote.
The small pieces of artificial greenery found in her hair could have come from the garland on the stair rail, sure. But it could also have come from the basement floor. Artificial trees were kept in the wine cellar, and she was placed under the Christmas tree in the living room, also an artificial tree. Had the bits of greenery been tested against the garland on the rail, we could at least have been able to say with certainty that she had been carried down those stairs. It would be a big help in trying to determine where she had been bashed.

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Excellent reasoning DeeDee249.

Was there ever any testing done on possible murder weapons (baseball bat, flashlight, etc.) to determine presence of blood? I saw a photograph recently of JonBenet's bathroom. I noticed a detachable shower nozzle. I wondered if that was ever tested. I know that this was a different era, but was any good forensic work done on this case?

dazeerae said:

Was there ever any testing done on possible murder weapons (baseball bat, flashlight, etc.) to determine presence of blood? I saw a photograph recently of JonBenet's bathroom. I noticed a detachable shower nozzle. I wondered if that was ever tested. I know that this was a different era, but was any good forensic work done on this case?

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I have never heard of blood being found on any of these items. My own thought is that the head bash weapon was not any of the items people suspect but was something else entirely that was removed from the house. It may have been one of the golf clubs that Pam was allowed to remove from the house.

Anyhoo said:

I have never heard of blood being found on any of these items. My own thought is that the head bash weapon was not any of the items people suspect but was something else entirely that was removed from the house. It may have been one of the golf clubs that Pam was allowed to remove from the house.

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Pam was NOT allowed to take any golf clubs, nor was she allowed to go to the basement.

Nom de plume said:

Pam was NOT allowed to take any golf clubs, nor was she allowed to go to the basement.

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Oh. I had heard she did remove JR's entire golf bag because that was one of the things he requested. Is that not true?

Hexe;10126228

I think the cover -up was done in tandem, by Patsy and John. It was not a solo thing

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Now see in my fall back theory (the one I always kept ending up at when considering the other possiblities) was that Patsy administered the blow, possibly accidently and then did all of the staging. In that theory, the reason for the basement was simple, she did not want John to know she was the killer so, once she saw that JB's injury was severe, or perhaps even thought she was dead, she moves her into the Basement to get her out of the way if either John or Burke wake up. Then comes up with the inane kidnapping theory, writes the note, etc. and then wakes John just as he said she did.

In that theory, John starts to suspect as soon as he reads the phony RN, but is stil putting it together when the police arrive. Obviously he figured it out as the day went on (explaining the noticeable disconnect between the two grieving parents).

Only if BDI did it, then that theory falls apart because I believe Patsy would have immediately called for John, if she wasn't the one that caused the injury.

Part of why I liked my original theory is that I too have always thought John was too smart to have allowed that stupid RN, and even if he had signed off on it, it would have been more like a legitimate RN.

IDK, so many questions that never seem to fit. The only thing I am 100% convinced of is that RDI. beyond that, I just don't know.

dazeerae said:

Was there ever any testing done on possible murder weapons (baseball bat, flashlight, etc.) to determine presence of blood? I saw a photograph recently of JonBenet's bathroom. I noticed a detachable shower nozzle. I wondered if that was ever tested. I know that this was a different era, but was any good forensic work done on this case?

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We do know that the flashlight was found to have been completely wiped down, including the batteries. I suppose that means they did try to test it. I have read various differing accounts as to baseball/softball bat found outside- that there was a hair on it belonging to JB, that there wasn't. But I do not believe any blood was found on either. JB's head bash was a closed-scalp injury. The bleeding was inside the skull. So there was no cut or laceration on her scalp or anywhere on her head that would have bled.

Anyhoo said:

Oh. I had heard she did remove JR's entire golf bag because that was one of the things he requested. Is that not true?

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Yes, that is what I had read somewhere, but I'm wondering if that was rumor or misinformation since the above post states otherwise.


Does anyone know if luminal was available at that time and whether it was used in the house? Maybe there wasn't enough blood in this case to necessitate luminal. I had heard that the mag light was wiped down, but all that means is fingerprint testing was done. That doesn't tell us if there was forensic testing done to find the presence of blood or other DNA. Even though I was an adult when the murder occurred, things have changed so much in criminal investigation techniques that it's hard to remember a pre-CSI world.

DeeDee249 said:

We do know that the flashlight was found to have been completely wiped down, including the batteries. I suppose that means they did try to test it. I have read various differing accounts as to baseball/softball bat found outside- that there was a hair on it belonging to JB, that there wasn't. But I do not believe any blood was found on either. JB's head bash was a closed-scalp injury. The bleeding was inside the skull. So there was no cut or laceration on her scalp or anywhere on her head that would have bled.

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If RDI, think about what it means that even the batteries inside the flashlight were wiped down. I have, and what it means to me is that flashlight was staging to support IDI. Not the murder weapon, but staging. There would be no logical reason for the Ramsey's fingerprints not to be on the batteries, however someone wanted the police to suspect that an unknown person had put the batteries in the flashlight and used it in this crime. Staging 101 by JR.

Anyhoo said:

Oh. I had heard she did remove JR's entire golf bag because that was one of the things he requested. Is that not true?

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It's not true. Yes, JR requested them. No, BPD did NOT let her go to the basement to get them. Just another rumor that she did. Now she did manage to fill an entire squad car with stuff, but nothing from the basement.

I've always wondered if he wanted them because something crime related was hidden in the bag, or if he was just so cold and unfeeling that he didn't realize how shallow & callous his request was. I imagine it's both. I've often wondered how much panic set in after he found out she couldn't get them.