IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #17

docwho3 said:

Thanks for the nice response.


I mentioned a particular type of drug because I have a particular
scenario in mind as a possibility. The fact that 2 people have exhibited
symptoms that could be caused by such a drug helps that scenario along.
It is not anywhere near being a complete theory yet and I am still
awaiting more evidence to surface before posting.

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I can think of a scenario where someone wanted to subdue CR so they could get to LS and slipped something to both of them. But that would have been someone at Kilroy's or earlier in the evening at JR's (because by 3:00am CR was already useless)

VeryVeritas said:

you bring up some interesting ideas and facts. It would be interesting to know if AB was actually a student or just hanging around the campus.

I was unaware that AB is seen in a video with JR. What video was that(location?)

It's my understanding that the Smallwood video recorded CR getting punched. I could definitely see them pursuing CR and heading him off at the pass, so to speak... and confronting them on the other side of the Alley.
I'm sure they know that area as well as anyone. This is one reason I keep trying to find out what the fight was about. Why wont CR or anyone else say what that fight was about? I also do not understand why Smallwood seemed to defend ZO's crew and point the finger at CR for the altercation. I kept wondering if ZO's crew also included a Smallwood security or staff or resident with some influence. So again, if anyone can find out what that fight was about, it might lead to something else.

If these guys ZO/AB are a lot more familiar with Indy finding a body becomes a whole other world.

Finally, if the scene went down as you have described, what is missing is what happens after AB catches up with her and is seen by the 3:38 witness.

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Video of AB...
http://www.twitvid.com/W6E4F

Carmen101 said:

Maybe AB and ZO were at JR's when LS went there the second time.

It has been said that ZO is short-tempered. If he is on body-building drugs, that could affect his moods and the level of his aggression. Perhaps he is the one these kids are afraid of. Maybe that's why HT friended him on Facebook shortly after LS disappeared-- perhaps she is protecting herself by being friendly to ZO.

If LS had argued with ZO earlier, maybe he was angry with her. She left, AB cut her off at the pass, took her back to JR's and something bad happened. Maybe the 4:15 call to DR was a panic call or one seeking info-- did you give/sell anything to LS tonight and if so, what?

And if all of this happened on the first floor and JR's bedroom is on the 4th floor, he might not have heard anything and might not have known that his phone was used to call DR. He finds out the next morning and assumes it was LS or says it was because he is afraid of ZO.

I don't know, there are so many possible scenarios. I believe I have given at least 3 completely different ones in the last hour or so. I am just trying to wrap my brain around what could have possibly happened to Lauren.

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In all of the possible scenarios running through my brain, it has crossed my mind as well that a lot of these students might be afraid of ZO, or if he is the highest on the drug-dealing chain, he might have some sort of power over them. That is a big assumption, though. We still don't know for a fact that he's a dealer, but the rumors are rampant.

I was actually talking with a colleague about this recently and we were commenting on how much mind control one student can have over a group of others - we've seen it happen with some of our students, and one particular instance I remember was pretty scary...almost cult-like. By no means does this happen to every student, but I've witnessed instances of it every now and then. Somehow they develop a strong loyalty towards one person and treat him/her like a God. That person gets a little sense of power and runs with it. No one will ever stand up to that person and he/she is able to dictate to others what they should do...and for some reason they listen. If this group had someone in it that everyone looked up to in that way, it would be easy to explain why they would all cover something up and no one would rat each other out. It makes me wonder if ZO could have that sort of power over some of these other guys, or perhaps ZO isn't even involved and another one has power - JR? This is all just stream of consciousness on my part - just throwing another theory out there to go along with Carmen's post.

Carmen101 said:

If JR is, indeed, in Barcelona, Spain, or Israel, how easily could he be extradited to be interviewed?

Does anyone know the extradition policies of Spain and Israel?

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Without a body there may never even be a case.

With a body, and substantial evidence that would put JR up for the death penalty, that would make extradition next to impossible.

Unfortunately guilty or not, he doesn't seem to have anything to worry about.

bessie said:

With all due respect to Berk, this "bit of info" is a rumor, and I'm going to caution everyone to steer away from this topic immediately. Remember, these individuals have not been named as POI's. When I said we could include them in the discussion, I warned everyone to use discretion and common sense, but it's getting out of hand. Don't be surprised if posts start disappearing.

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Bessie - I completely understand. I hesitated to even post it because although I heard it from someone I consider to be a reliable source, I do not have firsthand knowledge of it. Please feel free to pull any of my posts you think are inappropriate for this forum and accept my apologies.

Also, just to clarify - after going back and reading what Gabby was talking about, I fear that my original post may have become misunderstood along the way. The dealers that I heard about who got in trouble their freshman year were JR and DR. They are both named POIs if I remember correctly (and both have full bios posted by the local newspaper on the LS page on the Herald-Times website). I did not say that I knew anything about ZO other than rumors, and I tried to make it clear that anything I heard about him were strictly rumors.

I will drop this topic now, Bessie!

Berk13 said:

In all of the possible scenarios running through my brain, it has crossed my mind as well that a lot of these students might be afraid of ZO, or if he is the highest on the drug-dealing chain, he might have some sort of power over them. That is a big assumption, though. We still don't know for a fact that he's a dealer, but the rumors are rampant.

I was actually talking with a colleague about this recently and we were commenting on how much mind control one student can have over a group of others - we've seen it happen with some of our students, and one particular instance I remember was pretty scary...almost cult-like. By no means does this happen to every student, but I've witnessed instances of it every now and then. Somehow they develop a strong loyalty towards one person and treat him/her like a God. That person gets a little sense of power and runs with it. No one will ever stand up to that person and he/she is able to dictate to others what they should do...and for some reason they listen. If this group had someone in it that everyone looked up to in that way, it would be easy to explain why they would all cover something up and no one would rat each other out. It makes me wonder if ZO could have that sort of power over some of these other guys, or perhaps ZO isn't even involved and another one has power - JR? This is all just stream of consciousness on my part - just throwing another theory out there to go along with Carmen's post.

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@Berk... good thinking again.

Have you seen photos of ZO? He has an intense macho sort of appearance. That alone is enough to put some people in line. There are levels and types of dealers who are the heavy. They are the ones that come after you if you don't pay, rat someone out, etc... There are layers above and below them. In large organizations, you can just afford to have an "enforcer" on the payroll. Someone like JR could wield POWER as you describe because of his elite status. Others might listen to ZO because of fear or intimidation, that's a different kind of status. But yeah, it's all power.

Berk13 said:

Bessie - I completely understand. I hesitated to even post it because although I heard it from someone I consider to be a reliable source, I do not have firsthand knowledge of it. Please feel free to pull any of my posts you think are inappropriate for this forum and accept my apologies.

Also, just to clarify - after going back and reading what Gabby was talking about, I fear that my original post may have become misunderstood along the way. The dealers that I heard about who got in trouble their freshman year were JR and DR. They are both named POIs if I remember correctly (and both have full bios posted by the local newspaper on the LS page on the Herald-Times website). I did not say that I knew anything about ZO other than rumors, and I tried to make it clear that anything I heard about him were strictly rumors.

I will drop this topic now, Bessie!

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I think it would be unfortunate to drop the discussion. I would like to request clarification of exactly what boundaries are being crossed here?
Berk posted a lot of good info, so if only some small tidbits cross the line, seems it would be useful to know what that was. My understanding with respect to Heroin was that this was a potential trail leading back to JR/DR.
In nothing Berk said did I see an implication that ZO/AB were involved with heroin. I don't really know if ZO/AB are POI's because there doesn't seem to be an official Public list of POI's. Yet, they are connected to POI's, AB fits the 3:38 witness description. ZO/AB live between 5 North and Smallwood. We are not using their real names, etc.... So I'm not sure what the problem is here. Please clarify. I would hate to lose information from someone there on the ground. Thank You.

goodgirl65 said:

Perhaps that is the case but im pretty sure there were key question(s) that were asked of all the POIs during the LDTs, such as:

"Do you know where Lauren Spierer is?"
"Do you know what happened to Lauren Spierer"
"Did you harm Lauren Spierer?"

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Agreed, and with those questions the timeline wouldn't matter unless the questions focused on the timeline. LE might not have thought that important. Seems important to me. But I don't know what they know...

bessie said:

LS and CR went to Smallwood from Kilroy's. The likely scenario is they were goint to LS's apartment, but it's possible they were at Smallwood to visit DR.

DR accompanied LS to JR's apartment earlier in the night, hours before the 4:15 phone call.

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You know, that would make the 415 call LS supposedly made seem reasonable for the first time. It makes no sense that she's looking for her phone there if she hasn't seen DR for hours. But if they met DR at Smallwood or perhaps went in his apt. it wouldn't be that crazy.

Gabby66 said:

There have been many rumors about this case - People claim to know about the lifestyle of these kids and claim to know who was where, when, and maybe even why. However, the one thing that I've yet to read anywhere, is a post from anyone claiming to know what the fight was about. People have "speculated" that it could be coming from JW, yet I've read that the boys who are rumored to be the puncher(s) are not FB friends with him.

To me, the fact that there really are no sensible rumors out there about the fight is VERY telling. Typically, I'd think the boys would tell someone, especially since their names are out there as supposedly having been the ones to throw a punch. But it doesn't appear that anyone has talked about this fight. If BOTH sides (CR and possibly ZO) are keeping quiet, then it tells me that the issue was something really big, as opposed to something more simple like, "I was jealous"

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Agreed. That fight and the lack of motive and information about it is VERY CURIOUS indeed.

VeryVeritas said:

Agreed. That fight and the lack of motive and information about it is VERY CURIOUS indeed.

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I agree that it is curious. I'm surprised we never heard anything about the fight from HT, given that she is the primary source of a lot of the information we know about this case. It seems that this is something HT might have talked about in one of her interviews, as it's one of the biggest questions - what was the fight about? Either she doesn't know what it was about or she knows it's something she needs to keep quiet about.

Bessie - I apologize for my post. I hit post and then read yours. I will be a good girl.

I am a little confused. AB. Is he friends with JR? Was he also involved in the Smallwood altercation with CR? If so, then there is a connection between these 2 groups of POIs - AB. Does AB know AA?

Now AA(He was there too and found the keys)
Does AA know JR/MB or CR?
Was AA involved in the fight?

What was AA doing in that gravel lot at 3AM? Where does he live?

This is one seriously tangled web of people but could it be that ALL (or most as we don't know who all of them are) were at the JR townhome complex that night, particularly at 3AM?????, with maybe the exception of DR - who might have been at home (Smallwood) that night, and maybe, JW. (I lean toward the theory that he was out looking for her at the time and knew she was with CR and knew where CR lived) 3 AM is "the time" LE is focusing on. Does that seem plausible or am I missing something? Heads are popping up at that townhouse/vicinity everytime I long on.

All bold is mine

VeryVeritas said:

Laughter is indeed the best medicine.

However, on college campuses alcohol alone is not enough for some.
Voluntarily taking date rape drugs is common, like: The popular Ecstasy(X), Rophynol (Roofies), or Xanax, and good old fashioned speedballing (Cocaine + Heroin) These are all capable of causing the kind of amnesia that CR describes. Rophynol probably has the most distinct ability to wipe memory clean. All of those drugs suppress inhibitions, as does alcohol.

Xanax+Adderall is known as a poor man's speedball. At the same time it's been posted that the word at Kilroy's was Xanax+cocaine was being used CR/LS. Yet they were also clearly drinking. Rophynol is sometimes taken to accelerate the effect of alcohol but it's many times stronger. The thing with many street drugs is they are not pure and drug interactions are not on the labels. For example. Cocaine is often cut with other substances which are not always inert, like Ecstasy. if someone had an experience with Xanax+Cocaine (which in itself can be fatal) and wanted to repeat it, it's possible that the next time around it would really be Xanax+Cocaine+Ecstasy (which is much more risky)
Add some alcohol and you might just start forgetting about your phone, your shoes, etc...

I was doing some research on these combinations to see if anything stood out with the pattern here. Aside from most of them being able to lower your blood pressure and halt breathing, an interesting thing is that Rophynol (which wipes memory clean) seems to peak 2 hrs after ingestion.

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I have never heard of coke being cut with ecstasy, usually it's cut with things like aspirin, another white powder. Another thing, I wouldn't consider ecstasy a date rape drug. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe it is a safe drug by any means, it is commonly cut with meth and other speedy drugs to create a "rolling" high. IMO ecstasy is taken voluntarily, while ghb and other date rape drugs aren't.

VeryVeritas said:

Without a body there may never even be a case.

With a body, and substantial evidence that would put JR up for the death penalty, that would make extradition next to impossible.

Unfortunately guilty or not, he doesn't seem to have anything to worry about.

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Precisely why (IMO) it's imperative that we keep trying to nail down a scenario to include, as "DOC" put it, the mechanics of "how".
This leads to who and hopefully to "where".

Alliecog said:

I have never heard of coke being cut with ecstasy, usually it's cut with things like aspirin, another white powder. Another thing, I wouldn't consider ecstasy a date rape drug. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe it is a safe drug by any means, it is commonly cut with meth and other speedy drugs to create a "rolling" high. IMO ecstasy is taken voluntarily, while ghb and other date rape drugs aren't.

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I'm learning way more from you people than I ever counted on.
This is good stuff to know as a search volunteer and as a parent to college age kids.
How in the world I raised kids without knowing all these details on drugs is beyond me, and quite frankly a little unnerving.

There are some events of the morning/next day after LS went missing involving JW and HT that have struck me as odd, especially from a timing standpoint. JW supposedly goes to sleep at aprox. 2:30AM and LS is involved in some type of altercation in the company of CR at aprox 2:40AM. How would he have been notified about the altercation if he was asleep when it happened? If JW really is asleep at this time and somebody did call/text him and inform him of what happened, you would think when he woke up at aprox. 8AM he would be concerned enough for LS at that point and would be trying to reach her then. According to HT, JW and LS were suppose to meet up that night, but for whatever reason they did not. For all JW knew, LS could have been asleep by 1AM and awake at 8AM. Why no sense of urgency to make contact then, or if LS could not be reached, why her roommates were not contacted then, especially considering the altercation happened where LS and roommates lived. Even if LS was not involved in the altercation herself, she is out at 2:30AM with another guy and as a boyfriend, I would be curious, especially if I did not know the guy she was with.
Assuming that JW was not contacted that night in any way about LS activities, why when he is up at 8AM, suddenly shows concern for LS around noon. According to JR timeline, LS leaves his place at aprox. 4:30AM. it would be safe to assume LS would be home and alseep by 5 AM. She would probably wake up around noon or so and that would coincide with the time line that JR gives and is also when JW begins to try and contact LS. Also, LS has more roommates than just HT, so why is HT so pivotal in JW getting a key to the apartment to check on LS. What were her other roommates doing during this time frame? Were they all out before noon as well and JW being more familiar with HT, he goes to her classroom to get a key from her?
Now I understand after JW gets the key from HT, he realizes LS is not at home and not answering her phone, has to go to the bar and now realizes that after they had last spoken she was out at the bar and forgot her phone/shoes, that would certainly be concerning. If JW started his search for LS around noon, by this time it is probably between 1-2 PM. In order for anyone to know that JR saw LS leave his place at aporx. 4:30AM, they would have to make contact with JR. We know that the earliest JR is sleeping is at aprox. 5AM. After a night of possibly "partying", one would assume he would have a long sleep. IMO JR is not awake until 1-2PM at the earliest.
By 3-4 PM, did JW and HT make contact with everyone that LS was with the night before? What caused them to be concerned to the point that they had to file a MP report and call LS parents to say, "It's Lauren. she's missing" ? How did HT or JW know everyone LS was with the night before, considering that she had no phone and had visited several locations that night. HT knew LS was hanging out with CR, because at some point earlier in the night they were all hanging out by JR and LS/CR go to the bar together.
When the story first came out in MSM, every finger was pointing at CR. If they were all aware at that point that JR was the last to see LS, why so many fingers pointing at CR? Is it only because they did not know him very well? I also have to wonder if they had made contact with JR before they filed the MP report. The only person who knew that LS was going to JR after leaving CR apartment, was MB. MB is up at 3-4AM still writing papers to turn into class the next day? Still, why point the fingers at CR when his roommate is the one who confirms she goes to JR apartment. So JW and HT make contact with CR, CR claims amnesia to the point that he cannot realize he has a roommate? A roommate who was there with LS after he passed out? I'm not even sure JW or HT made contact with CR before filing the MP report, because CR would contact MB, who would then contact JR and there would be no logical reason to point fingers at CR. As late as June 9th, multiple MSM outlets were still reporting CR as last person to see LS, a week later!
Why does it take a few days for JR's involvement in all of this to come to light? Why does it take even longer to learn that JR had a visitor that night besides LS. IMO JW and HT may have really jumped the gun without knowing everything LS was up to that night, or did they?
Also, it's safe to assume JW has spent a lot of time at smallwood and has probably spent time at JR apartment or at the very least knew EXACTLY where he lived. He may of very well known LS to hang out at JR's and may also known there were minimal cameras on college ave. between 11th and smallwood, he could of even waited behind JR place where there are no cameras and could of caught LS leaving JR's from either direction. He could of been fully aware of the night's activity, he may of even been tipped off as to where CR lived. If so, CR and JW live in the same complex, so if he was laying in wait for LS, it wouldn't matter which friend place she was visiting. It has been said many times there are no cameras between JR apartment and JW house. JW had about 8 hours unaccounted for between his roommate saying he was alseep at home, roommate saying he was given a ride to school and when JW began to search for LS.
I am not trying to accuse JW of any crime, but all these coincidences are alarming to me.
I realize most of this is speculation and is coming from our most out spoken source, HT, but either way you look at it, it does not add up.

Carmen101 said:

If JR is, indeed, in Barcelona, Spain, or Israel, how easily could he be extradited to be interviewed?

Does anyone know the extradition policies of Spain and Israel?

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Is JR a dual US-Israeli citizen?

Is LS a dual US-Israeli citizen?

If JR is culpable for LS's death, and he moves to Israel, he could end up being prosecuted in two different countries, under two different standards of law.

That would be an interesting legal situation.

This is a June 9 article. Lt. Parker was leading the PCs.

http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/09/news.635642.sto


"Street cameras between the Smallwood and the apartments she visited at 11th and Morton streets did capture additional footage of the 20-year-old student. This footage is “basically just her presence” going through those camera fields,” Parker said. She is with someone else in this video “making their way” to the apartment, Parker said."

@ Walker and anyone else: I've been meaning to post about LS's academic coursework. Although there is a lack of consistency about specifics, it is unambiguous that LS was not in fact finished with her coursework.

She was either in her last two weeks of IU's first summer session or in the first two weeks of Ivy Tech's 1st summer session, or she hadn't started Ivy Tech's 2nd session. She had plans to do an internship with Anthropolgie (an esteemed gig I'm sure). I've read two different locations, Manhattan and her hometown.

Walker said:

Is JR a dual US-Israeli citizen?

Is LS a dual US-Israeli citizen?

If JR is culpable for LS's death, and he moves to Israel, he could end up being prosecuted in two different countries, under two different standards of law.

That would be an interesting legal situation.

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What would make you even ask the question if they have dual citizenship? They are Americans who were born in the United States, of American-born parents. The only thing that could possibly make you ask that question is that you are hung up on their being Jewish.