Long Easter Weekend Thread (Apr. 5, 6, 7, 8, & 9, 2012)

swedie said:

I agree with my bolded sections above. I am perfectly find with the humour that is being posted here as it has been three VERY long years to get justice for an innocent little girl who was savagely beaten, tortured, raped and murdered by two very sick individuals. Tori's family has been dissected in the worst possible way and they were never able to grieve properly for their precious child because of disgusting accusations by others who partook to medley into Tori's families private lives. It has been a long three year for sure, to get where we are at today and getting justice for Tori. Some of us feel happy with the evidence being brought forward by the Crown, and we chose to share our happiness and humour. <modsnip>.:moo:

<modsnip>. HTH

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I like humour too..especially clever, witty stuff!<modsnip>.
That is just my opinion though. Live and let live. :truce:

matou said:

Why would he be hanging at Carol's? To make money dealing drugs to her entourage? JMO

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My thoughts would be to stay close to an oxy source.

Ardy said:

Thanks for that informative post.

I stand corrected. TLM didn't stand trial because of her plea.

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I believe that if TLM had a trial and whole lot more information would have come out.

I hope this works! Interesting legal opinion.

http://jmortonmusings.blogspot.com/2012/04/tori-stafford-trial-if-michael-rafferty.html?m=0

I may need some advice on how to link articles here!

dilbert said:

I totally understand what you and others are saying, I actually agree with you, leaving Victoria where she was for so long is a horrible thing
to do, but we don't yet know why MR chose not to tell anyone. We don't know what he told his lawyer and that his lawyer told him to not say anything, we are six weeks in to this trial and we don't really know anything about MR's state of mind during that time except for the little bit TLM testified to and quite frankly, her credibility is not what it would have been if she hadn't recanted her 2010 confession.

My heart aches for what happened to Victoria and it aches for her family, I cannot imagine experiencing the loss of a child the way they have, however, because I don't state that with every post I make, it doesn't make it not true. From the second I heard of Victoria's disappearance on April 8, 2009, this case has weighed heavily on my mind, from the helicopter over my house, from the massive police and media presence in my city, from feeling like I can't take my eyes off my son for one second (and he's 13!!) etc., I have been affected by it, much like everyone else here has.

I want to see justice for Victoria, no question about it, but when people are dismissing everything the defence says, mocking lawyers, and learning that police didn't examine evidence, well that has less to do with justice and more to do with one's own personal agenda/opinion, and when I see that happen, I speak up. I want the truth from both sides, justice doesn't come from hearing only one side (the Crown) it comes from both, and giving the accused the benefit of the doubt ensures that both sides are heard and understood.

The trial is not over and IMO, the most important parts are yet to come. Justice is ensuring the right person is punished for the right reasons.

MOO

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GREAT post!!

Be advised that everyone is responsible for their OWN posts. There will be no listening to excuses, etc.

Do NOT bicker and derail this thread. The Mods have a very busy morning ahead of them and do not have time to sit in here.

Keep your emotions under control. If a post violates TOS, alert it and move on. Don't respond because you will be held responsible for your response.

Salem

Tahorn said:

I believe that if TLM had a trial and whole lot more information would have come out.

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That is an interesting thought .... if the both of them had clammed up though and she didn't divulge the Guelph trip to buy drugs, Home Depot or Timmies, it would have been like looking for a needle in a haystack - most of the evidence against MR she directed LE to. All LE had intially was the CASS video on he

jmo

:moo:

daisy.faithfull said:

The date on the hair color receipt is 4.11 evening. I can't see the date on the prescription receipts from TLM's, but TLM went to Genst on 4.12.

The receipt for the hair color says it was purchased at Walmart. I can't see the store logo on the prescription receipts very clearly, but I've used Walmart's pharmacy and I don't think it's a match. :moo:

One of the prescription bottles at MTR's had a red Shoppers label on it though, and the logo on the prescription receipts at TLM's is red.

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http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/04/19594746.html

Pic #16 ... left side of receipt shows history of April 11, 2009 but it is zellers. Where is zellers compared to walmart?

Ardy said:

What happened when TLM said MR did it? He got arrested and charged.

Why would it would be any different if he had called the police to the grisly scene and proclaimed his innocence?

He is proclaiming his innocence now....and the Crown doesn't believe him.

Personally, I would have called police and hoped that a jury in the future would find me innocent..........but there is no guarantee of that result.

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I totally agree!
If I imagine for just one second that I was unwittingly involved in the kidnapping and murder of a child...I would have hightailed myself to the nearest police station to offer them every single piece of evidence that might exist. I would do that because I am a very trusting person who adheres to standard values of 'right' and 'wrong'.
But not every person would. People who tend to be suspicious or wary of authority would likely think differently. Also, people who are extremely emotionally detached, resolute or unsentimental might also be more likely to delay or not report a crime.

Not reporting a serious crime is not 'right' by any stretch of the imagination. However I can see why some people might not.

matou said:

I guess someone who was in his vehicle before and after Tori's abduction will need to testify and verify if he changed the interior to his car re. the paint whitewashing. JMO

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I wonder why this issue was never brought up to TLM? Can't think of anyone who would be more able to answer the question.

I suppose the interior was "whitewashed" prior to that day. We at least know the dash was so why not the rest of the car. I guess maybe the Crown already found out that it had been done previously and decided not to bother to bring it up because it was irrelevant?

One thing that interests me is that we never found out where MR got the car. It was a 2003 wasn't it? Only 5-6 years old. Not very old for a car, especially a Honda. Did he buy it new? Did he have it since he was 23 and made payments on it for 3,4 or 5 years?

Or did he buy it as a beater from someone else who trashed the interior for whatever reason? Or was there something funky in or on the interior that needed to be whitewashed when he bought it? How long had he owned the car before this crime and if he bought it used where did he get it from? Did a previous owner add the hood scoop or did he?

How does a 5-6 year old car look so bad? Especially if it's only had one owner?

MOO

I don't in any way want to leave you thinking I am defending Mychol, in fact I tend to agree with Kittymama's excellent post based on what i have heard so far.

However, I also think that it is hard for us to put ourselves in the shoes of someone who is dealing illegal drugs as to our willingness to go to the police for help. I do not think that in any way excuses what he did, but it does not indicate alone that he is guilty.

There are just too many other "coincidences" there, before and after the murder, to believe yet that he was just an innocent observer to the kidnapping and had no idea what was about to happen.

Kamille said:

One thing that interests me is that we never found out where MR got the car. It was a 2003 wasn't it? Only 5-6 years old. Not very old for a car, especially a Honda. Did he buy it new? Did he have it since he was 23 and made payments on it for 3,4 or 5 years?

Or did he buy it as a beater from someone else who trashed the interior for whatever reason? Or was there something funky in or on the interior that needed to be whitewashed when he bought it? How long had he owned the car before this crime and if he bought it used where did he get it from? Did a previous owner add the hood scoop or did he?

How does a 5-6 year old car look so bad? Especially if it's only had one owner?

MOO

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He said it was "work in progress". Now, that's an oxymoron for sure! Anyway, you'll find the VIN in the published pictures of the car (I don't have the link handy, but I think it's in the previous thread.) For $20 you can get the history from any license office (unless the authorities have suppressed it due to the investigation).

JayFriend said:

I hope there's more evidence presented by the Crown re. "whitewashing" the car's interior. Someone suggested it was primer in preparation to painting or flocking the interior, but from those photos, it looks like is didn't stick too well and has been rubbing off. Pretty lousy primer, I'd say. However, whitewash is used to paint inside barns and disinfects. No doubt it neutralizes all kinds of organic residue including DNA. Living in a farming community like Woodstock, no doubt MR had heard about whitewash and got some at the local TSC. While I can see him painting the exterior of his car flat black, hotrodders used to do it, so why can't ricers, I've never heard of anyone whitewashing the interior to make it look cool. There has to be a reason.

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the plastic was not protected either...so there is "white" over where you read the gas level, mileage, speed etc...appears to be a quick job...why not protect that instead of having to down the road replace and tear out parts. IMO

tmhco said:

Beyond a shadow of doubt is not the same as reasonable doubt. Big difference. IMO is is more reasonable to conclude that an 8 year old child found without pants, dead in the middle of an isolated field was raped by a man and not the product of a drug/gang war.

I am so sorry for your loss, but what if Karla hadn't confessed? JMO

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BBM ty for you posting this. I've been contemplating the whole aspect of how TLM declined to going to trial and taking her sentence and how that is now effecting MR trial. It appears to be she is being scapegoated in MR's trail. At first I thought thank God Tori's family would not have to go thru 2 separate trials. I don't think they would have been tried together because of the video evidence and that of course they would want to lay heavier blame on the other. It has always been my opinion that MR is more like KH... wanting to blame the other partner and get off the hook completly or lightly.

For those that find TLM changing her story an issue (although informative imo) just remove it from the equation completely.

Taking TLM's testimony completely out and look at all the evidence found and presented... what you have is a video of TLM leading a child away from the school, a video of the MR vehicle parked a street over... a video of MR using an ATM... then parked a ways back from the Hardware store and waiting for TLM, a video of TLM purchasing bags and a hammer. Then you have the autopsy so far of how Tori was found, brutally beaten, naked from the waist down.

The video's alone would have had both TLM & MF picked up by police and the BB ping would have located Tori's body. These 2 people had the synergy to murder a child. MF purchased the hair dye and removed his back seat.

IMO a child that is being babysat is picked up 'In Front of the School' in plain view.. GMAB that he didn't know she was being kidnapped. Where is there any proof of a drug debt?? a ransom note? a phone call to ask for the money owed?

What we have is that TLM led the first available child to MR in his waiting vehicle and they drove off with her and she is now dead... brutally murdered.... so regardless if there was sexually abuse or a drug debt, the bottom line is they did that together and both deserve to be incarcerated for the rest of their natural lives. There has been nothing in the video's or evidence that MR was some innocent party. Wasn't there proof that TLM used food stamps that same morning? Would MR just take money from the ATM & assist her in purchasing items to murder that child... the hammer being the same 'brand' that was in MR's home is pretty telling in that he advised TLM what to purchase imo.

I can believe that a person can be put in a situation that they are innocent of but nothing in this senerio of video's and evidence in any remote way show that to be the case for MR.

IMO He conspired with TLM to rape a child. Going back to TLM's statement where she says MR said Tori was not young enough... that pretty much is the reason she's dead... that they had to make a hardware stop. Wonder how many gf of MR had very young children... best they get them checked. His having no criminal record means nothing. I hope this Jury has more common sense then CA's jury did.

I personally believe TLM's original version to be the truth and have my own ideas of why she changed it.

MOO

It seems that MR increased his drug use after Tori's death.

Tahorn said:

:moo:

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/04/19594746.html

Pic #16 ... left side of receipt shows history of April 11, 2009 but it is zellers. Where is zellers compared to walmart?

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Thanks! I'd had looked at another picture of prescription receipts.

It looks like maybe the address for the Zeller's 74 Wilson St. and then the address for the Walmart that matches the phone number on the Walmart receipt is 499 N. Norwich Ave, at the intersection of Norwich and Julianna Dr.

If that is correct, then according to Google they are very close to one another. If MTR picked up the prescriptioins when he was getting the hair color TLM is more than likely lying about it being left outside because I can't see him leaving drugs out there.

snoofer said:

the plastic was not protected either...so there is "white" over where you read the gas level, mileage, speed etc...appears to be a quick job...why not protect that instead of having to down the road replace and tear out parts. IMO

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It does make you wonder what else had gone on in the car prior to that day that would make someone do that to the interior. This is not a modification or priming for one IMO. This is an obvious attempt to cover something up. What would he have been covering up prior to that day? And it's pretty convenient that you can just keep sanding it down and repainting when necessary.

MOO

ChaChaCha said:

Oh no, it's just a figure of speech lol! That stuff, Frost and Tip and its sister product Frost and Glow have been around for years and years despite newer and more sophisticated formulas coming on the market almost daily. It is prob one of the less expensive streaking kits - iirc both kits come with a soft plastic hat and a little crochet hook so the hair can be pulled thru the pre-set holes. Spent hours doing that - two daughters lol!

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Haha! I used to use Frost N Tip when I could not afford the hairdresser! Many hours spent with my best friend, in pain because of the crochet hooks...and looking a bit 'brassy'!

swedie said:

So this is where it's at; MR drove a child over two hours away from her loved ones in his car with TLM. Somehow Tori ended up deceased and buried under a rock pile while the two people who threw her there and abandoned her there, went about their merry lives without telling LE.

According to Canadian law they are guilty of abduction and first degree murder. And IMHO that is how it will end. If no evidence is found to prove sexual assault, so be it. Those two other charges are enough to put both TLM and MR away for 25 years. NOT long enough IMHO.

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:goodpost:

daisy.faithfull said:

Thanks! I'd had looked at another picture of prescription receipts.

It looks like maybe the address for the Zeller's 74 Wilson St. and then the address for the Walmart that matches the phone number on the Walmart receipt is 499 N. Norwich Ave, at the intersection of Norwich and Julianna Dr.

If that is correct, then according to Google they are very close to one another. If MTR picked up the prescriptioins when he was getting the hair color TLM is more than likely lying about it being left outside because I can't see him leaving drugs out there.

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74 Wilson St is where TLM lived. The Zellers is a couple blocks north and a block west. Walmart is several blocks south.