CT CT - Hartford, WhtFem UP8909, 18-30, JNHS 1917 Class Ring, May'74

[fred&edna]

Accordingly to one news article (link below), she was found wearing two rings and a wood-carved brooch or pendant. The second ring "is an inexpensive one with an imitation emerald stone. The wood-carved figure appears to be an abstract ceremonial head."

I think I'd have better luck if I could see a photo of the wood-carved brooch/pendant (rather than a photo of her hot rollers).

It seems odd that the JNHS ring doesn't have a jewelers' mark (or at least there is no mention of it).

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=4311,6086229

[fred&edna]

More phone record info:

One of the numbers belongs to Fairlanes Bowling
Another number belongs to the sister of a pro-bowler

'Seems I can sleuth, search, read and follow a few leads but... I still have nothing

[Irish_Eyes]

I hear ya, F & E, lol. We're in the same place right now, I think.

I found out tonight that Margaret Sanger had a husband, JNH Slee, who went by Noah. That's about as close to JNHS as I've come. He lived in New York and it was thought the UID might have come from there. He would have been alive in 1917, but I have no reason to think this is his ring, no reason to connect him with the initials ILN or a girl found in CT years after his death.

Of course, what drives me crazy is the possibility that the ring was just something Carmichael had lifted from someone somewhere along the way and then gave to his girlfriend, and that it has absolutely no value for investigative purposes.

[skeet]

Originally Posted by Irish_Eyes

I hear ya, F & E, lol. We're in the same place right now, I think.

I found out tonight that Margaret Sanger had a husband, JNH Slee, who went by Noah. That's about as close to JNHS as I've come. He lived in New York and it was thought the UID might have come from there. He would have been alive in 1917, but I have no reason to think this is his ring, no reason to connect him with the initials ILN or a girl found in CT years after his death.

Of course, what drives me crazy is the possibility that the ring was just something Carmichael had lifted from someone somewhere along the way and then gave to his girlfriend, and that it has absolutely no value for investigative purposes.

Totally agree with your second paragraph, think the ring means nothing. What I find hard to believe is that this women stayed two nights in the home of the man who was accused of killing her. He had a wife, you would think that before fake names were made for her that she would have had conversations with the wife. Did they just call her "hey you", I think if someone was staying in my house I would at least like to know their real name. It's very strange.

[fred&edna]

Originally Posted by skeet

Totally agree with your second paragraph, think the ring means nothing. What I find hard to believe is that this women stayed two nights in the home of the man who was accused of killing her. He had a wife, you would think that before fake names were made for her that she would have had conversations with the wife. Did they just call her "hey you", I think if someone was staying in my house I would at least like to know their real name. It's very strange.

I've wondered if J Rainello is still alive, and if so... would she possibly have anything additional to add. Actually, I've wondered what happened to others who were part of this bank-robbing (and murderous) gang.

The ring with it's JNHS letter were such a dead end and that's why I opted to try additional searches on the phone records. Maybe we will find a link... somewhere.

[skeet]

Originally Posted by fred&edna

I've wondered if J Rainello is still alive, and if so... would she possibly have anything additional to add. Actually, I've wondered what happened to others who were part of this bank-robbing (and murderous) gang.

The ring with it's JNHS letter were such a dead end and that's why I opted to try additional searches on the phone records. Maybe we will find a link... somewhere.

Hate dead ends...great that you are checking phone numbers. I didn't see where you are getting the phone numbers from though, must have missed that post.

Yes, searching in other areas is good, and frustrating. You would think with a name like Gustavus you would be able to find something more than just the articles about the murder. He was originally from Lewistown, Auburn area of Maine, so was his accomplice Roger Brown. But yet they say she was from either Tenn. West Virginia, or the Carolinas.....but yet possibly working in New York, so where did they get that information from? She was also wearing another ring, cheap one, with an emerald stone which made me wonder if her birthday was in May, probably just moo there.

Carmichael owed some rental properties in Rhode Island to harbor fugitives, so I had been thinking that maybe she was from that area. Hard to know, wish we knew if he had known her before he was in prison. If she did maybe she would have visited him and had to sign in to do so. Or, he met her after he escaped and then it would be much harder to track where he met her and when. Wonder if his visitor list was ever checked by LE?

[fred&edna]

Originally Posted by skeet

Hate dead ends...great that you are checking phone numbers. I didn't see where you are getting the phone numbers from though, must have missed that post.

Yes, searching in other areas is good, and frustrating. You would think with a name like Gustavus you would be able to find something more than just the articles about the murder. He was originally from Lewistown, Auburn area of Maine, so was his accomplice Roger Brown. But yet they say she was from either Tenn. West Virginia, or the Carolinas.....but yet possibly working in New York, so where did they get that information from? She was also wearing another ring, cheap one, with an emerald stone which made me wonder if her birthday was in May, probably just moo there.

Carmichael owed some rental properties in Rhode Island to harbor fugitives, so I had been thinking that maybe she was from that area. Hard to know, wish we knew if he had known her before he was in prison. If she did maybe she would have visited him and had to sign in to do so. Or, he met her after he escaped and then it would be much harder to track where he met her and when. Wonder if his visitor list was ever checked by LE?

The phone records can be seen on the NamUs site. Just click "Images" on the left side and then "arrow over" to see the photos. I think the phone records are the last two images.

NamUs link: https://identifyus.org/en/cases/8909

Great idea about her birth month possibly being May! I hadn't even thought of that.

Through my searches, I believe the following info to be correct (but I'm not positive... just my research!)

GLCarmichael was born Aug 3 1946 in Atlanta, GA (gleaned from his FBI "Wanted" poster)

His father was born in GA in 1914 and died 1977 (Butts County GA)
His mother's maiden name was "Barrett or Barret" and she was born abt 1920 South Boston. She worked as a nurse at a Boston hospital in the 60s.
GLCarmichael has 2 siblings.

At the Eva L. Butler Library in New London, CT there is:
A Scrapbook - Murder Most Foul
"An account of the finding of two buried bodies
of suspected bank robbers on a Shewville Road,
Old Mystic property. Richard DeFreitas was one
of the two men convicted in the double murder."
Author Carol W. Kimball
Eva L. Butler Library
publisher: New London Day

And I wish I could see it!

** I think DeFreitas and James E. Gardner lived in Kentucky (at some point, dunno how long). I live in Kentucky but I haven't done a great deal of searching for these two.

[skeet]

Wow thumbs up to you!! That's a lot of food for thought, thanks for the info. It would make more sense that she came from that area if that's where some of them were originally from. I'll try to search more tonight. I wonder if that scrap book would be available on e-books?

[fred&edna]

Originally Posted by skeet

Wow thumbs up to you!! That's a lot of food for thought, thanks for the info. It would make more sense that she came from that area if that's where some of them were originally from. I'll try to search more tonight. I wonder if that scrap book would be available on e-books?

I surely appreciate the thumbs up But, unfortunately it doesn't put us much closer to knowing the identity of our UID.

I have a list of names associated with the phone numbers (as well as more info on GLCarmichael) but I'm hesitant to post it. I don't wanna be zapped by the mods for violating TOS, ya know
I'm trying to keep in mind that GLCarmichael still has living relatives and he was a victim, too.

One interesting thing....
GLCarmichael and RJBrown were charged with bank robbery (trial was in Hartford CT). RJBrown reportedly told authorities that between $25,000 and $30,000 of the stolen money was sent to an attorney in Boston.
per Lewiston Evening Journal July 1970

[skeet]

Originally Posted by fred&edna

I surely appreciate the thumbs up But, unfortunately it doesn't put us much closer to knowing the identity of our UID.

I have a list of names associated with the phone numbers (as well as more info on GLCarmichael) but I'm hesitant to post it. I don't wanna be zapped by the mods for violating TOS, ya know
I'm trying to keep in mind that GLCarmichael still has living relatives and he was a victim, too.

One interesting thing....
GLCarmichael and RJBrown were charged with bank robbery (trial was in Hartford CT). RJBrown reportedly told authorities that between $25,000 and $30,000 of the stolen money was sent to an attorney in Boston.
per Lewiston Evening Journal July 1970

That's really interesting, did the article mention the attorney's name? Not sure about the rules on the names and phone numbers, guess you could ask a mod. I think as far as Carmichael goes as long as you found it in a news article pretty sure you can post it, but again not sure.

[fred&edna]

Originally Posted by skeet

That's really interesting, did the article mention the attorney's name? Not sure about the rules on the names and phone numbers, guess you could ask a mod. I think as far as Carmichael goes as long as you found it in a news article pretty sure you can post it, but again not sure.

What I posted was all there was on that aspect (money given to an attorney) no additional info.

[skeet]

Wonder why they didn't do a sketch of her with curly hair since they found curlers with her other belongings, maybe she did her hair that way sometimes.

[LucyOso]

Originally Posted by Irish_Eyes

I hear ya, F & E, lol. We're in the same place right now, I think.

I found out tonight that Margaret Sanger had a husband, JNH Slee, who went by Noah. That's about as close to JNHS as I've come. He lived in New York and it was thought the UID might have come from there. He would have been alive in 1917, but I have no reason to think this is his ring, no reason to connect him with the initials ILN or a girl found in CT years after his death.

Of course, what drives me crazy is the possibility that the ring was just something Carmichael had lifted from someone somewhere along the way and then gave to his girlfriend, and that it has absolutely no value for investigative purposes.

BBM. I have thought about that as well. And presenting it like some family heirloom to "show how serious he was" could make any woman fall fast for you. The other thing about JNHS is it could be an anniversary or wedding like ring. Two people's initials and the year. Not uncommon in 1917. I have a money clip from my great-great aunt that was a gift from her husband that had both their original initials on it. JN married HS or JS married NH in 1917. But, this could also be a red herring. :-(

[LucyOso]

Originally Posted by LucyOso

BBM. I have thought about that as well. And presenting it like some family heirloom to "show how serious he was" could make any woman fall fast for you. The other thing about JNHS is it could be an anniversary or wedding like ring. Two people's initials and the year. Not uncommon in 1917. I have a money clip from my great-great aunt that was a gift from her husband that had both their original initials on it. JN married HS or JS married NH in 1917. But, this could also be a red herring. :-(

And I.L.N is I love N_______ ?

[fred&edna]

Originally Posted by skeet

Wonder why they didn't do a sketch of her with curly hair since they found curlers with her other belongings, maybe she did her hair that way sometimes.

I'm assuming Rainello and Gardner were the ones who provided most of the physical description. Maybe our UID didn't typically use hot rollers especially since she was using an alias, or it could that be she rolled/curled her hair when working (if she was a wanna-be singer/dancer, etc). I wonder how much investigation was done on this UID after 1974... maybe, not a lot.

I mentioned Darlene Polizzi previously and if you imagine our UID with "styled hair" she resembles Darlene.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...hlight=polizzi

[skeet]

I wonder that also, seems like they have quite a bit to work with. Maybe if the UID had looked more like a victim instead of an accomplice they would have worked harder to find out who she was, that thought is a sad one .

Trying to keep my thoughts organized so I think I will write them here instead of putting them on sticky notes.

Prison records: Who was on his visitors list?
Telephone records: Three calls to Nashville on 11/18, they were not short calls, did LE check out every phone number on that list? Who is C.M. Fox Jr. the person whose name the phone bill is in?
Vehicle: 1964 Oldsmobile - dumped in Hartford, Maine inspection sticker, she was known to have driven this vehicle. Vehicle's have to be inspected every year, what was the date of the inspection and are there certain numbers on inspection stickers to identify where the car was inspected at? If so who was the vehicle registered to? Carmichael or the UID? I doubt that items such as Insurance Cards and registration cards were found in the vehicle since it was "dumped" but by tracing where the car was inspected those would be two items you would need to show to get your car inspected.

Just some random thoughts.........

[skeet]

Originally Posted by fred&edna

I'm assuming Rainello and Gardner were the ones who provided most of the physical description. Maybe our UID didn't typically use hot rollers especially since she was using an alias, or it could that be she rolled/curled her hair when working (if she was a wanna-be singer/dancer, etc). I wonder how much investigation was done on this UID after 1974... maybe, not a lot.

I mentioned Darlene Polizzi previously and if you imagine our UID with "styled hair" she resembles Darlene.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...hlight=polizzi

She does have the reddish brown hair.

[fred&edna]

Originally Posted by skeet

I wonder that also, seems like they have quite a bit to work with. Maybe if the UID had looked more like a victim instead of an accomplice they would have worked harder to find out who she was, that thought is a sad one .

Trying to keep my thoughts organized so I think I will write them here instead of putting them on sticky notes.

Prison records: Who was on his visitors list?
Telephone records: Three calls to Nashville on 11/18, they were not short calls, did LE check out every phone number on that list? Who is C.M. Fox Jr. the person whose name the phone bill is in?
Vehicle: 1964 Oldsmobile - dumped in Hartford, Maine inspection sticker, she was known to have driven this vehicle. Vehicle's have to be inspected every year, what was the date of the inspection and are there certain numbers on inspection stickers to identify where the car was inspected at? If so who was the vehicle registered to? Carmichael or the UID? I doubt that items such as Insurance Cards and registration cards were found in the vehicle since it was "dumped" but by tracing where the car was inspected those would be two items you would need to show to get your car inspected.

Just some random thoughts.........

Good questions.
There is/was a C.M. Fox who is/was a realtor... maybe he owned the property where they lived. Since his name was on the phone bill I'm sure LE checked him out.

[skeet]

I wonder if those are moles on her right cheek in the sketch or just pencil marks?

Tried calling person in charge of this case on NamUs, a recording said that the voice mailbox has not been set up yet.

[Jerri Blank]

i brought this up a few months ago and still feel like other here that the ring isnt tied to this girl at all, and was likely stolen/otherwise acquired by carmichael along the way and given to her. i dont think it will tell us who she is at all...

that being said, i was intrigued by this:

Originally Posted by LucyOso

BBM. I have thought about that as well. And presenting it like some family heirloom to "show how serious he was" could make any woman fall fast for you. The other thing about JNHS is it could be an anniversary or wedding like ring. Two people's initials and the year. Not uncommon in 1917. I have a money clip from my great-great aunt that was a gift from her husband that had both their original initials on it. JN married HS or JS married NH in 1917. But, this could also be a red herring. :-(

i did not know that was something people did, and if none of the main class ring makers can claim this design as their own maybe it IS a custom piece. if that is the case, maybe "ILN" means something in latin or another language?

all intriguing stuff that leads us no closer to IDing this girl... though possibly finding the ring's origin could lead to where carmichael found the girl? slim but possible.

[Jerri Blank]

Originally Posted by fred&edna

At the Eva L. Butler Library in New London, CT there is:
A Scrapbook - Murder Most Foul
"An account of the finding of two buried bodies
of suspected bank robbers on a Shewville Road,
Old Mystic property. Richard DeFreitas was one
of the two men convicted in the double murder."
Author Carol W. Kimball
Eva L. Butler Library
publisher: New London Day

And I wish I could see it!

i am in that area fairly often visiting family, so i could see it quite easily and report back... i just don't know where that library is. google tells me there is the New London Public Library, but nothing on an Eva L. Butler library. could you share the link where you found that info?

[fred&edna]

Originally Posted by Jerri Blank

i am in that area fairly often visiting family, so i could see it quite easily and report back... i just don't know where that library is. google tells me there is the New London Public Library, but nothing on an Eva L. Butler library. could you share the link where you found that info?

http://www.indianandcolonial.org/vewebsite/search1.htm
Type "Carmichael" in the search box, the first entry will be the "scrapbook" for this case.

Looking at it again, it appears the words "Murder Most Foul" are used to describe a collection of writings, etc. re: murders in the area. (this is just a guess)

Maybe the E.L. Butler library is here:
http://indianandcolonial.org/

I hope you find it and have an opportunity to visit (maybe sneak a photo or ten of the scrapbook!)

** Well, actually the more I think about it this may be nothing more than some news clippings and a few photos.

[skeet]

Even though I don't think the ring means anything it still bugs me lol, maybe because it's an unanswered question. Easy to get stuck on it.

[Jerri Blank]

bah! that place couldnt have worse hours i am usually there on weekends, but eventually i'll get there. i am sure your hunch that its clippings is right, but i am intrigued enough to make it there and check!

[fred&edna]

Originally Posted by Jerri Blank

bah! that place couldnt have worse hours i am usually there on weekends, but eventually i'll get there. i am sure your hunch that its clippings is right, but i am intrigued enough to make it there and check!

I'm sorry they were closed, that stinks I'm glad you're still intrigued and will try again. I certainly hope it ends up being worth your time!