Possible Murder Motives#2

panthera · Sep 19, 2009

miafedup said:
And hello to you. It's nice to converse with civil people. My experience with message boards has been anything but civil so it truly is nice to meet you all.

Thanks for your link. But Panthera just wrote exactly what I was going to.

What I'm trying to say (not very well) is there might be other explanations for why he was holding his head in his hands other than he was distraught.

A very plausible explanation to me is that he was simply trying to hide his identity from the camera's, especially if he was the one that caused the alarm to go off and was making his escape.

So I would love to know how they are determining he was distraught.

What if ~ and this is just a thought ~ he didn't set off the fire alarm, or at least not purposely, and had to exit the building before he'd completed the clean up and wasn't sure if her body was securely hidden? I could see him being very worried, maybe distraught, but more along the lines he could get caught if he didn't get back into the building soon. MOO

miafedup · Sep 19, 2009

panthera said:
What if ~ and this is just a thought ~ he didn't set off the fire alarm, or at least not purposely, and had to exit the building before he'd completed the clean up and wasn't sure if her body was securely hidden? I could see him being very worried, maybe distraught, but more along the lines he could get caught if he didn't get back into the building soon. MOO

Now that's an intriguing theory!

Normcar21 · Sep 19, 2009

JL50ish said:
This may be a lot of it...He may have been demanding that she immediately do some time-consuming task and she may have said that she didn't have time....and things began to escalate. Does anyone know if that Tuesday was her last "work day" before the wedding. I had heard somewhere that her family was arriving for the wedding the next day - which suggests that perhaps Tuesday was going to be her last day for awhile (until she returned from honeymoon.)

I am personally leaning towards something of that sort, some confrontation related to RC's "control freak" attitude about lab ediquitte, clean-up, procedure (perhaps intensified by a childish hidden love/hate feeling towards Annie). She was apparently not averse to boldly informing others about her disapproval to various actions that did not please her (i.e.: post #3 in the Annie Le, the Person thread - when rejected from Princeton, her first choice, sent a picture of her butt to the admissions director) PS - I have no personal verification of that action, just the WS post from Skigirl. And all that it suggests to me is that she was not the sort who would remain quiet and walk away in silence if someone tossed a verbal dart or an insult at her. especially the likes of this apparent control freak who probably barked out orders on a regular basis (if reports about his nature are valid, that is).

I'm sure that she was uptight about the very approximate wedding date (according to relatives she was extremely excited about it and it was a continuous priority...a not uncommon thing, of course) and it would not be difficult for me to perceive that some verbal altercation between the two occurred, perhaps RC barking a cleanliness order and Annie responding to the rudeness with a response that may well of set RC off.

IMO only

Shlock Homes · Sep 19, 2009

panthera said:
It's from the same type of camera, imo, that captured Annie entering and that wasn't even clear enough to tell for sure what she was carrying. I think by him being able to carry out daily routines, going back to the building to try to retrieve his pen and so forth, then playing his softball game on the day her body was found (knowing LE was closing in), he's not showing much remorse at all. MOO

It could also mean he didn't do it.

The video footage of Annie looks like she's carrying a couple of boxes, maybe cages with mice? It doesn't look like she has any text books in her hands.

I'd like to know if there were other people in the basement areas besides Clark and Le. They make it sound like they were the only two down there between the time she last swiped and the time he left for the fire drill. If the place was crawling with students and lab techs, I can't see how he managed to kill a person, clean up the crime scene, and move the body into it's final place without being seen.

When I first heard about the fire alarm, I thought that might have been used as a form of cover, to clear out the building of witnesses to Annie (dead or alive) being moved around. That's how I would interpret that action. Did they say the fire alarm originated from the lab area? Was Clark's card swiped in the area where it was pulled?

When they say he's holding his head as he's seen exiting, does that mean he's covering his ears? I guess whether he looks distraught or not is a matter of interpretation. If he had a hangover from to much drinking the night before, or if he came to work with a bad headache or migraine, I could also see that as a reason for him to be holding his head with the alarm.

Chanler · Sep 20, 2009

Normcar21 said:
I am personally leaning towards something of that sort, some confrontation related to RC's "control freak" attitude about lab ediquitte, clean-up, procedure (perhaps intensified by a childish hidden love/hate feeling towards Annie). She was apparently not averse to boldly informing others about her disapproval to various actions that did not please her (i.e.: post #3 in the Annie Le, the Person thread - when rejected from Princeton, her first choice, sent a picture of her butt to the admissions director) PS - I have no personal verification of that action, just the WS post from Skigirl. And all that it suggests to me is that she was not the sort who would remain quiet and walk away in silence if someone tossed a verbal dart or an insult at her. especially the likes of this apparent control freak who probably barked out orders on a regular basis (if reports about his nature are valid, that is).

I'm sure that she was uptight about the very approximate wedding date (according to relatives she was extremely excited about it and it was a continuous priority...a not uncommon thing, of course) and it would not be difficult for me to perceive that some verbal altercation between the two occurred, perhaps RC barking a cleanliness order and Annie responding to the rudeness with a response that may well of set RC off.

IMO only

Hi, Normcar21, a great post. I think that you're right on several counts. By numerous account, Annie Le was tenacious and feisty; and heaven knows that bright small-statured women don't like to be bullied. To me, it was a very combustible situation: Raymond Clark was already tightly wound; Annie was thinking about other things, namely the most important day of her. Both had mental deadlines of sorts and clocks were ticking. If he physically blocked her way, I can imagine that she would try to get past him.

Sola.N · Sep 20, 2009

Here's another theory. Maybe RC was in that posture on the tape as a result of the wounds he'd just received in the struggle. He probably was in some pain, I'm sure he was completely freaked out, and he may have been trying to cover up some of the wounds or blood stains. Here's a quote:

"When he was questioned by the FBI, agents took note of numerous injuries on his body, the source said, including what appeared to be bruises and abrasions on his arms, a mark under his eye, a scratch on his right ear, and a bruise or deep scratch to his chest."

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/09/16/news/new_haven/doc4ab0f8c64f569632844012.txt

Maybe he was trying to avoid being around other people until he could get a chance to change clothes (into something clean and possibly more concealing) and to tidy himself up a bit. I don't know if the security cameras are high enough resolution that you could pick out a scratch on someone's ear from the picture, but what I do know about fire drills at large facilities is that people are supposed to gather in the same area so that security can take a headcount. If he looked all messed up after that fight -- and I'm virtually certain he would have -- I bet he was trying to keep anyone from seeing that.

Kat · Sep 20, 2009

panthera said:
What if ~ and this is just a thought ~ he didn't set off the fire alarm, or at least not purposely, and had to exit the building before he'd completed the clean up and wasn't sure if her body was securely hidden? I could see him being very worried, maybe distraught, but more along the lines he could get caught if he didn't get back into the building soon. MOO

This is what my Husband suggested as well panthera. It is a possibility. :yes:

Normcar21 · Sep 20, 2009

Sola.N said:
Here's another theory. Maybe RC was in that posture on the tape as a result of the wounds he'd just received in the struggle. He probably was in some pain, I'm sure he was completely freaked out, and he may have been trying to cover up some of the wounds or blood stains. Here's a quote:

"When he was questioned by the FBI, agents took note of numerous injuries on his body, the source said, including what appeared to be bruises and abrasions on his arms, a mark under his eye, a scratch on his right ear, and a bruise or deep scratch to his chest."

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/09/16/news/new_haven/doc4ab0f8c64f569632844012.txt

Maybe he was trying to avoid being around other people until he could get a chance to change clothes (into something clean and possibly more concealing) and to tidy himself up a bit. I don't know if the security cameras are high enough resolution that you could pick out a scratch on someone's ear from the picture, but what I do know about fire drills at large facilities is that people are supposed to gather in the same area so that security can take a headcount. If he looked all messed up after that fight -- and I'm virtually certain he would have -- I bet he was trying to keep anyone from seeing that.

I can accept your suggestion more than an idea of "anguish" because this guy seems to have had the internal ability to play baseball with the fellas after the fact and seemingly had no trouble extending the lab control freak idea to hours and days after the crime.

I think that your idea is a distinct possibility, excepting the idea that he was "completely freaked out." I'm sure he was freaked out initially following, but I'd guess that the freak out nature turned into a logical attempt to cover things up, which would have calmed him down a touch, I'd say. It makes sense to me considering what appears to be his controlling nature. He rushed about swiping his card here and there for quite awhile which may indicate an individual who, yes, is somewhat in panic mode, but is also in "think" mode, trying to track and erase any semblance of evidence. An hour or more of this "mode" would surely erase any idea of "anguish" or panic. He had already fully accepted the crime and was now being as "controlled" and "logical" as he could be. Look at this, check out that, deal with this, deal with that, sort of thing.

Hiding a wound would also be a logical, after the fact, thing to do, so I agree with you.

YellowDog · Sep 20, 2009

I still am inclined to think there is something sexual about this crime. He had scratches on his neck, chest, back, etc. It sounds like he had his shirt off when this happened. Did he have this secret crush on Annie and felt like he must act upon it before the wedding or she would never know how he felt about her. I think he made sexual advances toward her, they got into a struggle and maybe her nose started to bleed on his shirt, he pulled off the shirt and continued his advances and she started clawing at him. He was afraid someone was going to hear them and he was so angry at this point that he lost self control.

MWright · Sep 20, 2009

Shlock Homes said:
It could also mean he didn't do it.

<<snip>>
I'd like to know if there were other people in the basement areas besides Clark and Le. They make it sound like they were the only two down there between the time she last swiped and the time he left for the fire drill. If the place was crawling with students and lab techs, I can't see how he managed to kill a person, clean up the crime scene, and move the body into it's final place without being seen.
<<snip>>

The swipe card evidence show that Clark and Annie were in the same room together. See: http://www.courant.com/news/connect...-le-raymond-clark-yale-slaying,0,857789.story

panthera said:
What if ~ and this is just a thought ~ he didn't set off the fire alarm, or at least not purposely, and had to exit the building before he'd completed the clean up and wasn't sure if her body was securely hidden? I could see him being very worried, maybe distraught, but more along the lines he could get caught if he didn't get back into the building soon. MOO

I've been in an office building when the fire alarm has gone off and because I had so much to do, I stayed.

I'm thinking that if he wanted to stay, he probably would have.

miafedup said:
Noob here, hello everyone!

I've read many comments that Raymond looked "distraught" leaving the building after the fire alarm was pulled. What is this based on?? His hands on his head?

IMO, this doesn't sound distraught.

It sounds like someone trying to conceal their identity. Which, if he had just commited a murder, he clearly would have every reason to want to do.

An excellent point! I thought about this too!

missyjane77 · Sep 20, 2009

I'd like to know if there were other people in the basement areas besides Clark and Le. They make it sound like they were the only two down there between the time she last swiped and the time he left for the fire drill. If the place was crawling with students and lab techs, I can't see how he managed to kill a person, clean up the crime scene, and move the body into it's final place without being seen.

I think it's very likely he could have killed her and hid her without anyone seeing/hearing anything. Like I've mentioned before, our animal facility has lots of separate rooms that hold the animals. You have to swipe to get into each room. It's not a huge space with animals lined up in rows. Most days when I go check on my animals, I'm the only one in the entire suite (yes, we have suites with 6 animal rooms). So even if there were other people in the animal facility, they still could have been the only ones in that particular room.

PatientOne · Sep 20, 2009

It's no surprise to anyone that many media outlets do their best to sensationalize crime. In this case, it's not only been sensationalized but romanticized from the start due to the possible Runaway Bride scenario. One of the first articles I read once Annie's body was found was in the New Haven Independent, which stated LE had a suspect and it was a case of "unrequited love". The article has since been updated, with the remark that LE has ruled this out as a motive:

http://newhavenindependent.org/archives/2009/09/serious_suspect.php

IMO the newer motive of workplace violence may be an attempt to stem prurient interest in the case -- sex sells, after all. No doubt Yale doesn't like this kind of attention. But if no evidence ends up being found to support a sexual motive, then it must be that RC was the proverbial ticking time bomb employee and Annie was his unfortunate victim.

Still, I think it's beyond noteworthy that RC's only other known involvement in violent behavior is when his HS gf broke up with him.

It could be that since Annie's fiance was out of town (albeit only a couple of hours drive-time away, at most) and she and her fiance were ambitious scientists who may have put career first in many ways (i.e., not spending as much time together as some other couples do), it was easier for RC -- as a young man who's only lived and worked near where he was born, who worked with his gf and other family members, etc. -- to misinterpret or fail to appreciate the personal dynamics of a couple like Annie and her fiance. Their relative distance could've fueled his imagination and hope for something beyond a professional relationship with Annie. If so, I can imagine him being emotionally gutted on the fateful day especially if it was his last contact with her before her marriage, when confronted with the undeniable reality of her committment to someone else.

So, even though I admittedly may be influenced by media who still try to infer a sexual motive (whether overtly or just by illustrating their dryer stories with photos of Annie in cleavage-baring camisoles), I'm still inclined to believe the "unrequited love" motive, regardless of what Yale or the NHPD say.

miafedup · Sep 20, 2009

Shlock Homes said:
It could also mean he didn't do it.

I'd like to know if there were other people in the basement areas besides Clark and Le. They make it sound like they were the only two down there between the time she last swiped and the time he left for the fire drill. If the place was crawling with students and lab techs, I can't see how he managed to kill a person, clean up the crime scene, and move the body into it's final place without being seen.

I thought about this too. A busy Tuesday morning and no one heard/saw anything while a violent murder took place?

However, I did run across this article:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/09/17/earlyshow/main5317185.shtml

A student who worked in the same lab as Annie and Raymond is quoted:
The med student observed to Pinkston that it is "so secluded down there, soundproof, and nobody is ever looking for you, nobody questions when you go into a room for several hours and don't come out."

The "perfect place," Pinkston noted, for a murder.

miafedup · Sep 20, 2009

I'm starting to lean towards premeditation. I know I'm probably alone in this (!) but his behavior after the alleged murder is raising major flags for me.

The working theory seems to be he is a control freak that just snapped. Annie was also on edge for her upcoming wedding and so, his controlling behavior coupled with her fiestiness made for the perfect storm for muder.

But here's my problem.

Number one, a student who saw Raymond in the lab on the Friday after Annie had gone missing is quoted:

"He appeared very relaxed, very normal," the woman told Pinkston. "I didn't sense any anything different in his behavior from what I'd observed previously."

This concerns me. If this really was some sudden rage attack, why would he be "very relaxed and normal" knowing Annie's body was on the same floor, maybe even just feet away for where they were? I would think someone who had snapped, would be far too concerned of being caught then to go back to the place of the murder. Ever.

Second, the day her body was found he was playing softball. Again, his behavior is descirbed as being unemotional and unconcerned:

Raymond Clark betrayed no emotion as he played shortstop for his team, the Wild Hogs, in a playoff loss Sunday.

The Yale lab tech even impressed the plainclothes cops tailing him.

"We had detectives in the crowd," Lt. John Velleca, head of the New Haven police department's narcotics unit, told the New Haven Independent. "He's actually pretty good."

He called Clark "nondescript" and noted that he didn't interact much with his teammates.

So this makes me wonder if he wasn't a sociopath, with all the detached arrogance that goes along with it.

For reasons only a sociopath can understand, perhaps he deliberately lured Annie to the lab via that text message. Maybe there was no exchange at all, no angry words. When he saw the right moment, say she had her head turned, he attacked. He then set off the alarm, again preplanned, left the building with the others and tried to conceal his identity from the camera's by holding his head in his hands.

He was so confident of his crime, that he went back to the scene of the crime appearing without a care in the world, played softball days later and just went on with his life, thinking Annie's body would never be found.

Maybe Ramond Clark concluded he was too smart to get caught.

Sola.N · Sep 20, 2009

MWright said:
<snipped>

I've been in an office building when the fire alarm has gone off and because I had so much to do, I stayed.

I'm thinking that if he wanted to stay, he probably would have.

<snipped>

The laws in Connecticut may be different from where I live in Georgia, but around here, if a fire alarm has gone off and anyone is caught staying in the building, the employer gets fined. We've been told in no uncertain terms by our CIO that we're in major trouble if we don't leave the building when we're supposed to. While we're all outside, a crew of people headed by corporate security goes from floor to floor to make sure no one is still in the building.

The more I hear about this lab facility and how you could be murdered in a basement room with nobody hearing a thing, the more grateful I am for the ungodly aggressive security where I work.

eyes4crime · Sep 20, 2009

PatientOne said:
It's no surprise to anyone that many media outlets do their best to sensationalize crime. In this case, it's not only been sensationalized but romanticized from the start due to the possible Runaway Bride scenario. One of the first articles I read once Annie's body was found was in the New Haven Independent, which stated LE had a suspect and it was a case of "unrequited love". The article has since been updated, with the remark that LE has ruled this out as a motive:

http://newhavenindependent.org/archives/2009/09/serious_suspect.php

IMO the newer motive of workplace violence may be an attempt to stem prurient interest in the case -- sex sells, after all. No doubt Yale doesn't like this kind of attention. But if no evidence ends up being found to support a sexual motive, then it must be that RC was the proverbial ticking time bomb employee and Annie was his unfortunate victim.

Still, I think it's beyond noteworthy that RC's only other known involvement in violent behavior is when his HS gf broke up with him.

It could be that since Annie's fiance was out of town (albeit only a couple of hours drive-time away, at most) and she and her fiance were ambitious scientists who may have put career first in many ways (i.e., not spending as much time together as some other couples do), it was easier for RC -- as a young man who's only lived and worked near where he was born, who worked with his gf and other family members, etc. -- to misinterpret or fail to appreciate the personal dynamics of a couple like Annie and her fiance. Their relative distance could've fueled his imagination and hope for something beyond a professional relationship with Annie. If so, I can imagine him being emotionally gutted on the fateful day especially if it was his last contact with her before her marriage, when confronted with the undeniable reality of her committment to someone else.

So, even though I admittedly may be influenced by media who still try to infer a sexual motive (whether overtly or just by illustrating their dryer stories with photos of Annie in cleavage-baring camisoles), I'm still inclined to believe the "unrequited love" motive, regardless of what Yale or the NHPD say.

Sex sells - brutal violence against women does not! If Annie had been walking through the woods enjoying the beauty of a fall day, brutally murdered, dragged and placed under a fallen branch, the act would have been called what? A sex crime because she was walking alone? Or a brutal, nonsensical murder of a beautiful, self-motivated, and brilliant student/woman? Placing the senseless, brutal murder of Annie in the category of workplace violence is disparaging and serves one purpose...to shift the cognitive senses to a place where the norms of the bell shaped curve prevails, a work environment. Never mind that Annie was a student! Placing it in a category of simmering covert sex, not only places her senseless murder under the bell shaped curve, but adds the ingredients necessary for front page tabloid headlines....and that sells!!! mho

Columbo · Sep 20, 2009

YellowDog said:
I still am inclined to think there is something sexual about this crime. He had scratches on his neck, chest, back, etc. It sounds like he had his shirt off when this happened. Did he have this secret crush on Annie and felt like he must act upon it before the wedding or she would never know how he felt about her. I think he made sexual advances toward her, they got into a struggle and maybe her nose started to bleed on his shirt, he pulled off the shirt and continued his advances and she started clawing at him. He was afraid someone was going to hear them and he was so angry at this point that he lost self control.

bolded by me.

Good point, it seems like his shirt would have to be off for him to have scratches on his chest. Unless she managed to reach up under the shirt--would it have been a scrubs suit he was wearing?

Sola.N · Sep 20, 2009

Columbo said:
Good point, it seems like his shirt would have to be off for him to have scratches on his chest. Unless she managed to reach up under the shirt--would it have been a scrubs suit he was wearing?

Maybe joypath can answer this, but it certainly seems like it would be hard to get the "deep scratch" on his chest mentioned in so many news articles through a layer (or two) of clothing. My cats can scratch through clothing, but they have sharp claws that can pierce cloth. A normal person's nails won't do that, as far as I know.

Skigirl · Sep 20, 2009

Sola.N said:
The laws in Connecticut may be different from where I live in Georgia, but around here, if a fire alarm has gone off and anyone is caught staying in the building, the employer gets fined. We've been told in no uncertain terms by our CIO that we're in major trouble if we don't leave the building when we're supposed to. While we're all outside, a crew of people headed by corporate security goes from floor to floor to make sure no one is still in the building.

The more I hear about this lab facility and how you could be murdered in a basement room with nobody hearing a thing, the more grateful I am for the ungodly aggressive security where I work.

I don't know about the laws in CT, but in the building where I worked, they put in a new system not very long ago and the siren was ear-piercing -- unbearable -- this horrible high pitched chirping noise. AND a voice recording that said over and over to vacate the building. Since that building was new, I would imagine it had something similar. When our alarm went off, it would look bizarre if you were in the building cleaning or whatever when people started to filter back in after all that noise.

On the other hand, I think only someone with a lot of self control would not behave in an anxious and agitated way under the (alleged) circumstances, so it seems natural to me that he would look restless just a couple hours after the murder. The crime does not imply that the killer was someone who had a lot of self-control.

Waddles · Sep 20, 2009

Sola.N said:
Maybe joypath can answer this, but it certainly seems like it would be hard to get the "deep scratch" on his chest mentioned in so many news articles through a layer (or two) of clothing. My cats can scratch through clothing, but they have sharp claws that can pierce cloth. A normal person's nails won't do that, as far as I know.

had scratches and scrapes-with enough force you can leave serious scrapes through a shirt, also in a struggle a shirt lifts up or there are v-necks etc and also he had scratches on his arm, eye and ear etc -I really doubt he had his shirt off

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