Judge Rules California's Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional 8/4/10

Belinda said:

Nova - Do you have any idea what happens if the appeals court says the proponents don't have standing to appeal? Would that mean Judge Walker's ruling would immediately go into effect? Do you think they will receive standing to appeal? If they do not receive standing to appeal, would it still go to the Supreme Court?

Judge Walker's ruling was so clear cut, I don't see how it could be overturned. Yet, I'm terribly afraid someone will find a way. I felt so sure the appeals court wouldn't issue a stay, but it makes sense that they would want to protect those who wish to marry from any back and forth rulings. It's disheartening nonetheless.

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I really don't know. And even my appellate-lawyer friend (in fairness, she does state appeals and for juvenile court) isn't sure. I would assume that if the Ninth Circuit rules that the pro-Prop 8 folks have no standing, that, too, would be appealed to SCOTUS.

I also assume (but don't really know) that sooner or later, somebody is going to claim to speak on behalf of those who voted for Prop 8, arguing that they were disenfranchised when their vote was overturned.

By the time this all gets to SCOTUS, who knows? Let's remember that by 5 to 4, the Court ruled in Bush v. Gore that the Florida recount (a matter that had previously been considered a matter of state's rights) violated George H. Bush's civil rights! The same 5 majority voters had traditionally claimed to be pro-state's rights and tended to vote against civil rights legislation when it benefited actual minorities.

So we know that some of the conservative justices are willing to tie their principles in knots in order to achieve the ruling they want...

On the bright side, half the court has changed since 2000 and once they are on the bench, justices don't always vote the way their political affiliations might lead us to expect.

After all, Judge Turner was a Reagan/Bush-I appointee.

Personally, I don't see any argument for banning same-sex marriage (except that it's a new idea and people are still getting used to it). But I suspect the conservative argument will be that by allowing gays to marry, the institution of civil marriage is somehow cheapened and therefore all heterosexual marriages become devalued. Turner was appropriately scathing on that subject.

Nova - I really enjoy your posts and your objective view. I have become so emotionally invested in this subject that I find it hard to be objective. I always come back to the point of asking myself how I would feel if I was told that my relationship and my family weren't good enough to suit other people. It breaks my heart. If people would just stop thumping their bibles and get educated, they would see how truly simple it is. I am happy that the movement has now become a tidal wave and I believe that will win in the end, but I feel sorry for all the people stuck in this perpetual limbo. It is wrong and it shouldn't be allowed to continue.

I've written and erased so many posts about this issue, Gay Marriage. It seems that this can be such a hot topic from both sides of the isle. I believe part of the anger about this is that the people of California feel they've voted on this issue and that should settle it. They're frustrated that it keeps coming back to the courts, when they feel they have already spoken. Majority rules.

I don't see how a 'civil right,' can be decided by a vote. You would have the majority voting that a minority abide by YOUR beliefs. Think what would have happened if they'd left all of the 'civil rights' laws go to a popular vote?

I would like to see the courts settle this in a 'legal' decision. I have faith they will come to the right conclusion.

To anyone else that doesn't agree with gay marriage, I would like you to stop and REALLY go over this in your mind. Why? Why are you against two people who love each other to be able to enjoy life, liberty, and happiness, the same as everyone else. Because they're different than you, that they should not be able to have what you have?

While you're going over this in your mind, if you're a parent, whether your children are toddlers or grown adults, take a moment and close your eyes. Now, just imagine your young, or even older adult child comes to you and says, "I'm gay." ......seriously..............What would you do?

Would you disown your own child? Or would you realize that they are human just like you and me and their life has taken a turn to something different and you love them no matter what. It's THEIR life.

When one of my children came to us and made this statement, we embraced her and well, lol, we said, 'We've been waiting for you to say something.' We love her just as much as we do all of our children. I would hope you would do the same if this had been your child.

Oh, and yes she's married. She and her spouse had a beautiful sunset wedding here on a San Diego beach. The ceremony was by a minister, her entire family and friends attended as well as some uninvited guests who were taken by the sincerity of the moment. She and her spouse and her young daughter have recently purchased a home and are presently going through the process of becoming foster parents to another child. I couldn't be happier for THEM! They're a family, just like you and me.

People don't choose this life style, it chooses them. Just because THIS DIFFERENT doesn't coincide with YOUR norm, doesn't mean the gay community shouldn't be treated as fairly as everyone else. They shouldn't be denied one of the freedoms that everyone else is granted, marriage to WHO THEY want.

JMHO
fran

PS...fwiw, our daughter tried the traditional marriage. It didn't work out and frankly, we like her new spouse MUCH MORE than her 'ex.'...fran

PPS...oh, Her spouse's family was NOT there for the wedding because a few years prior, when she told her parents she was gay, they kicked her out of the house that very minute and called the police to escort her away. Now 7 years or so later, they're coming around and trying to make amends. How sad is that? So many years lost.

PPPS...LOL, ok, this is the last 'ps'......I highly recommend, if you haven't seen it, watch the Philadelphia story. I mean REALLY watch it. There's a number of lessons to be learned by seeing this Tom Hanks movie. Watch it a second and third time if you don't get it. Very powerful statements....fran

Belinda said:

Nova - I really enjoy your posts and your objective view. I have become so emotionally invested in this subject that I find it hard to be objective. I always come back to the point of asking myself how I would feel if I was told that my relationship and my family weren't good enough to suit other people. It breaks my heart. If people would just stop thumping their bibles and get educated, they would see how truly simple it is. I am happy that the movement has now become a tidal wave and I believe that will win in the end, but I feel sorry for all the people stuck in this perpetual limbo. It is wrong and it shouldn't be allowed to continue.

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Amen to all that! I can only try to pretend to be objective when posting here. Of course my heart is very much decided on this subject.

And I can't begin to count the ways gay couples are penalized financially. For example, if my employer offers domestic-partner insurance, that insurance is counted as extra income and taxed; not so when legal spouses are insured. (At the moment, only the state recognizes my own marriage; the federal government treats us as singles. Except the IRS just announced that due to community property rules in California, they now expect us to divide everything up and file two identical returns--each of which will be taxed as if the filer is single. Jeeze, Louise!) Ditto when one partner dies: the survivor is liable for inheritance taxes that don't apply to a legal widow or widower.

Now I'm not one to complain about high taxes (though I'm often not happy with the way they are spent); our tax rates are very low for an industrialized country with a complex infrastructure to support. But it does stick in my craw that I'm expected to pay a larger share than an identical heterosexual in a similar marriage.

And the inequities affect others in the family and they happen to be straight! My stepchildren are recognized as relatives by the state, but not by the Feds (though I believe Obama recently ruled that hospitals have to let them visit me if I am confined).

What a great and moving post, Fran!

For what it's worth, both of our children are heterosexuals. Of course we're not "disappointed." Why would we want them to be anything but who they are and what makes them happy?

Similarly, neither of them chose careers remotely similar to those of any of their four parents. Why would we care about that either? (After four years at a very expensive teacher's college, our daughter called us in tears to say she hated teaching and didn't want to do it any more. All four parents said the same thing, in essence: "We wanted you to have a top education, and you got one. We never meant for you to be chained to a career you don't like." She now works in fashion and loves it! Good for her.)

Fantastic post Fran!!! It makes me feel sad that some families would rather cut off all contact with their children, than to accept them for who they are. Since when should loving your child have conditions? Sad, sad, sad.

I am so very glad that your daughter has found happiness. After all, isn't that really what it's all about? I feel sorry for the people that don't get that. And bless them that they are fostering a child. How wonderful is that? There are many states that don't allow gay couples to foster or adopt children. I think that is the biggest shame of all. So many children could be living in happy homes otherwise.

Nova, I can only imagine your frustration. How long is it going to take to get it right? Each and every historic struggle for equal rights was a battle worth waging. They have all been won as will this one. Anyone who thinks they should have the right to decide (vote) on how other people are treated is wrong. Plain and simple. Just as they were wrong in the past equal rights struggles, they are wrong now.

I suppose I should be more understanding of those who are still opposed, as I used to be one of them. However, the very idea is so foreign to me now that I want to rant and rave, scream and holler at the people who still don't get it.

I realize there are cases where children are so violent and abusive their parents are forced to limit contact. My heart goes out to those parents!

But I have no sympathy for parents who shun their children for religious reasons or because they don't like decisions their children make, such as choice of career or marriage partner or where to live.

I don't really believe in a literal Hell, but if there were such a place it would have a special rung for parents who turn their backs on their kids!

Here's the latest;

Los Angeles (CNN) -- Attorneys on both sides of the same-sex marriage debate will face off in a California appeals court Monday, as a panel of judges hears arguments in a case over Proposition 8.

In August, a federal judge ruled that the voter-approved measure, which defined marriage as a union between a man and a woman, violated the U.S. Constitution. The Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals will consider an appeal of that judge's ruling Monday.

Arguments begin at 10 a.m. (1 p.m. ET) and will be divided into two hour-long sessions -- one over the legal standing of those appealing the decision, and one over the constitutionality of Proposition 8.

Monday's hearing is the latest in a lengthy legal battle over same-sex marriage in California....