Casey & Family Psychological Profile #3

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April, you have very good insight. I think you are accurate in your analysis. You appear to be able to recognize thinking and feeling and the difference in the two. Many cannot do that. I commend you because you obviously are doing very well.
:takeabow:
 
Thanks for your insight AprilShowers. Do you think that she's borderline? (Given your post, it seems so.) Do you think it may be possible that she's not, that she could be a sociopath? I'm very interested in your perspective!

: )
 
I have borderline personality disorder, and I wanted to comment on what "I" saw and felt about this paragraph below. What I want to point out will be in bold, and my words will be in red.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnTCB
KC: I don’t know what I CANthink anymore

I know this is part of BPD, because without medication, I too, truly feel that I don't know what I CAN think. In other words, those with BPD, go from feeling one thing to another very quickly, we can feel angry, then guilt about that anger, then depression from the guilt, etc. etc. and we're never really sure WHAT we feel, or what we SHOULD feel, because we have NO confidence in ourselves at all, and we have no trust in anyone else.

Many times, this is caused by not having the proper love and care, when we were children. And even though we see that she may have been loved, she was also 'spoiled' and 'coddled', and wasn't given the proper discipline ... that in itself is neglectful, since discipline (done in the right way) portrays love to children, since then they know they are loved, since their parents CARE what they do and don't do, where they are, etc. etc.

So in that sense, BPD starts to develop, because the child has no real sense of being loved and truly cared for, since she can do whatever she wants. Oh, she may enjoy that as she goes along, but truly deeply inside the soul of a child, they WANT and NEED control and discipline, it tells them they are loved.
MOM, just keep saying it BECAUSE IT'S THE TRUTH It’s all we want. OUR FAMILY IS BROKEN.

Here, she is telling her MOM to keep saying it, because this is her way of placing the burden and responsibility on her Mom, so she can come across as the victim ... the child who needs to feel completely loved, since she never truly did as a child, because of the lack of discipline and them allowing her to do whatever she wants.

She then points out that it's the TRUTH ... that our family is broken. Here I see two things she may be meaning. One is that she feels the family IS broken, because of the lack of discipline and rules, etc. and who knows what else she's referring to. Two is that SHE feels broken. Trust me, BPD's DO feel broken, absolutely feeling they have NO idea where they belong in this world, and without the guidance of rules, when they're young, that gives them even MORE of a sense of being lost.


We want to have that fixed.

"I" want to have that fixed, us fixed .. I wish I felt totally loved and cared about, but you always let me do whatever I wanted to, never held me accountable for anything, and all though it was fun at the time, it hurt to know you didn't care enough to stop me. So now ... who am I and what am I .... and what purpose do I fill here on earth?

We know what that means to have our family broken apart by something now. By tragedy. We don’t want this to any longer be a tragedy.

Notice that she uses WE allot? She's actually both talking about herself, and also trying to once again, bring them together as a family, hoping against hope, that she's 'rescued' ... to show she is loved. I truly think she WANTS them to be more forceful ... and firm .. therefore holding her responsible FINALLY for something.

I don’t want to be one of those thousands of parents that, that has to deal with the possibility of never seeing their, their child again. With the potential of knowing that their child’s alive and that they’re with someone else.

The paragraph above? I think that's only for sympathy, empathy, to be felt sorry for ... to get their love and attention .. and to 'play' them into giving her attention. (but it's still about 'love', not surface love, but REAL love, meaning rules, regulations, restrictions, because they CARE about her well being and that she becomes a responsible adult).

The thought of that every day makes me sick.

This can be about any number of things, But trust me, if she's truly BPD, she isn't talking about what she 'appears' to be talking about. BPD's find it VERY hard, if not impossible, to say how they're REALLY feeling, because the moment they do, they let down their sheild of the fear of not being loved and of being abandoned.

So I think here, she may be expressing that SHE makes herself sick, that she feels what many BPD's feel, loathing of themselves, sometimes hating themselves, feeling invisible, no direction in life.

She also may be speaking of the fact that it makes her sick, that it came to this ... that she took her child's life, because she is so FOOKED up.

I know this all may seem crazy to you guys .... and I am NOT saying most BPD's kill their children or anyone for that matter, usually if anyone, they attempt to kill THEMSELVES, but in this case, if a BPD feels SO alone and lost, they may turn to this ... all though I believe that may have been the 'sociopath' side of her.

Also one more thing: Many BPD's go a bit on the wild side, drinking, sex, stealing, etc... some of it is to cover up how they REALLY feel totally empty, void of purpose, and lost. The other part of it is, to show the world that they're ok ... adjusted like everybody else is. They can NOT show the truth, their TRUE feelings of being lost, and of being scared to death of not being loved.

Sorry this was so long, and I'm not saying I'm right in every single thing here, but just thought I'd give you the perspective from the BPD's side.

Also, I'm NOT defending her doing what she did in ANY sense! Just so you know.... but letting you in on the BPD's psyche a bit.
:)

Aprilshowers, I would have snipped but out of repect for such an amazingly insightful and thoughtful post, I did not. My daughter is BPD. I pray that one day she is able to reason for herself and others the way that you do. You really are amazing!!!:blowkiss::clap::clap::clap::clap:
 
aprilshowers... ty for bravely sharing re bpd. One of the things you mention that rings especially true which I'd posted about many times is that KC had been basically begging for boundaries all her life. "I should've been stopped a long time ago." Also when you describe how tenuous her own feelings (and lack of convictions) I recalled how during LE interrogation, KC seemed strangely detached from her lies when confronted by detectives. In other words, while KC has been remarkably tenacious about the ZG storyline in general, when she was confronted w portions that were untrue, she seemed oddly tenuous and distant from the lies and statements once disproven. "Yeah, no... I guess you're right, that wasn't true..." she would say as tho she were totally indifferent to the statements she'd made. At that point she wasn't being at all arrogant, and it struck me less as someone who lacks only shame and more someone who as you say has no clue what she "should" be saying or feeling under the circumstances. And if she had feelings of self-loathing before, I can't imagine how she might loathe herself had her own neglect eg caused the death of her child. Anyway I have never tried to excuse either only to understand. And it is heartbreaking to me. Every parent who loves their child disciplines them. JMO :blowkiss:
 
I believe KC thought of Caylee more as a younger sibling than a daughter, and there are multiple reasons, which we can go into, having to do with her instability and also her parents. This is all part of her detachment and jealousy issues with Caylee. It does enter into motive. I keep thinking of the conflict between Cain and Abel, siblings.
 
aprilshowers... ty for bravely sharing re bpd. One of the things you mention that rings especially true which I'd posted about many times is that KC had been basically begging for boundaries all her life. "I should've been stopped a long time ago." Also when you describe how tenuous her own feelings (and lack of convictions) I recalled how during LE interrogation, KC seemed strangely detached from her lies when confronted by detectives. In other words, while KC has been remarkably tenacious about the ZG storyline in general, when she was confronted w portions that were untrue, she seemed oddly tenuous and distant from the lies and statements once disproven. "Yeah, no... I guess you're right, that wasn't true..." she would say as tho she were totally indifferent to the statements she'd made. At that point she wasn't being at all arrogant, and it struck me less as someone who lacks only shame and more someone who as you say has no clue what she "should" be saying or feeling under the circumstances. And if she had feelings of self-loathing before, I can't imagine how she might loathe herself had her own neglect eg caused the death of her child. Anyway I have never tried to excuse either only to understand. And it is heartbreaking to me. Every parent who loves their child disciplines them. JMO :blowkiss:

I agree & have felt exactly as you, regarding her detachment, when confronted with lies. She reminds me of a lamb off to be slaughtered, taking it in stride. She held this same posture prior to CA calling 911.....as an inevitable expectation:confused:
 
I think that when she says "we" she is telling her parents that it's not just her problem that it's their problem so they need to work on this together - but in reality the only one with the answer is her. Also when she says she doesn't want to be one of those parents that never sees their child again - she is trying to tug at CA's heart strings and make her feel bad about the fact that CA may never see KC again because she could be in jail for life. Lot of attempting to make GA & CA feel like crap and guilty because they have no bailed her out yet & reassuring them she is eating and sleeping - after seeing the last visit in jail I am even more convinced she killed Caylee and I feel bad for GA & CA - CA looking at her trying to read her, trying to see if she is lying about this - what a mess...Also why is KC always rubbing her left eye? Trying to hide her lying eyes???
 
I have seen this behavior before, as many of you have. A child receiving no discipline, always excused behavior, nothing is their fault, or even if it is, it is brushed away. The child doesn't meet developmental stages necessary to grow and become a mature adult. They stay stuck in the child mode, pushing boundaries farther and farther and farther..... This doesn't excuse any of her behavior. What KC did is heinous at best and her lying indicates her awareness of right and wrong. She is an excellent manipulator, especially with the parents. Tugging at their heart, constantly bringing the conversation back to herself, her misery, her comfort, her needs, her lack of control over the situation (this statement by KC in the jailhouse conversations with her parents says ALOT about her guilt, as in, I don't know what to lie about next because I don't know everything that is going on). I would imagine that she has always been able to guilt her parents into ignoring what she did wrong. I would also imagine that they have often become bone weary of her antics and would probably rather continue to deny the extent of her problems rather than take any drastic action that they would again feel guilty for.
 
I think that when she says "we" she is telling her parents that it's not just her problem that it's their problem so they need to work on this together - but in reality the only one with the answer is her. Also when she says she doesn't want to be one of those parents that never sees their child again - she is trying to tug at CA's heart strings and make her feel bad about the fact that CA may never see KC again because she could be in jail for life. Lot of attempting to make GA & CA feel like crap and guilty because they have no bailed her out yet & reassuring them she is eating and sleeping - after seeing the last visit in jail I am even more convinced she killed Caylee and I feel bad for GA & CA - CA looking at her trying to read her, trying to see if she is lying about this - what a mess...Also why is KC always rubbing her left eye? Trying to hide her lying eyes???


I also watched Cindy's reactions. To me, she was looking closely for lies and at times seemed horrified by what she saw in Casey. If this last visit tape was shown in order by Nancy Grace, I saw a big mood/personality swing in Casey about the time that Cindy was looking horrified. It was bizarre and scary.
 
So what do you think pshyologically about the heart sticker on the duct tape? Also the pooh blanket? Why the blanket but not the favorite doll mama?
 
So what do you think pshyologically about the heart sticker on the duct tape? Also the pooh blanket? Why the blanket but not the favorite doll mama?

I think it was some kind of sick ritual that she performed. Much as I hate to say this, however, it reminds me a lot of what people do when they bury their doggies or cats that have passed on. Fact is, I honestly think she viewed Caylee not as a person, a loved child, a daughter, a human being.... but a pet. I know when our dog had to be put down, of 18 1/2 years old, in late october...she went with her favorite blanket and her favorite carrot toy...however, her other favorite toy I kept, as well as clippings of her fur and her collar... as my own reminders of her to me. I think that is why she kept the baby doll. The moment I heard all this on the news...I thought about my "rosie", our dog. I just can't help thinking that psychologically that is how she viewed Caylee. a pet.
 
I believe KC thought of Caylee more as a younger sibling than a daughter, and there are multiple reasons, which we can go into, having to do with her instability and also her parents. This is all part of her detachment and jealousy issues with Caylee. It does enter into motive. I keep thinking of the conflict between Cain and Abel, siblings.


i do agree with you on this aspect, as well. I do not believe she viewed her as her child..more as a rivalry...a sibling.
 
aprilshowers... ty for bravely sharing re bpd. One of the things you mention that rings especially true which I'd posted about many times is that KC had been basically begging for boundaries all her life. "I should've been stopped a long time ago." Also when you describe how tenuous her own feelings (and lack of convictions) I recalled how during LE interrogation, KC seemed strangely detached from her lies when confronted by detectives. In other words, while KC has been remarkably tenacious about the ZG storyline in general, when she was confronted w portions that were untrue, she seemed oddly tenuous and distant from the lies and statements once disproven. "Yeah, no... I guess you're right, that wasn't true..." she would say as tho she were totally indifferent to the statements she'd made. At that point she wasn't being at all arrogant, and it struck me less as someone who lacks only shame and more someone who as you say has no clue what she "should" be saying or feeling under the circumstances. And if she had feelings of self-loathing before, I can't imagine how she might loathe herself had her own neglect eg caused the death of her child. Anyway I have never tried to excuse either only to understand. And it is heartbreaking to me. Every parent who loves their child disciplines them. JMO :blowkiss:

The only thing, Kiki, is that Casey couldn't handle discipline or boundaries set. I think even if CA and GA were strict and did not put their guards down...that it still would not have made a difference in Casey's life/personality and/or actions. She had to have been one heck of a stressful person to live with. It was clearly obvious if she doesn't hear what she wants to hear she "goes off". I believe even if any boundaries were set and Casey did not like them...she threw such a fit and totally disrupted the family dynamics that she was "given in to", by her parents, if for any reason but for them to save their own sanity.
 
It's funny because alot of people here say that CA & GA "Walk on eggshells" around Casey. I read a book called "Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care about Has Borderline Personality Disorder".

The connections are undeniable.
 
The only thing, Kiki, is that Casey couldn't handle discipline or boundaries set. I think even if CA and GA were strict and did not put their guards down...that it still would not have made a difference in Casey's life/personality and/or actions. She had to have been one heck of a stressful person to live with. It was clearly obvious if she doesn't hear what she wants to hear she "goes off". I believe even if any boundaries were set and Casey did not like them...she threw such a fit and totally disrupted the family dynamics that she was "given in to", by her parents, if for any reason but for them to save their own sanity.

Lavanda, the Anthonys "giving in" to save their sanity, was, IMHO perpetuating the problem, creating the monster they now have to deal with.
I would never have indulged that behavior, not matter what. Not only for your sake, but also for the child. They accepted this behavior for quite some time.
 
KC had been basically begging for boundaries all her life. "I should've been stopped a long time ago."
respectfully snipped.

I have a different view of this. I don't believe Casey begged for boundaries. I believe these words project responsibility for her actions on to others.

There is no doubt that Casey Anthony is personality-disordered. I do not believe she has BPD, though BPD certainly shares some features with antisocial personality disorder.

She is conscienceless. Her post-crime behavior has not been typical of BPD, but rather of APD/sociopathy. She does split and manipulate--but sociopaths are skillful at this, as well. Her thought patterns are too organized, IMO, for BPD.

Casey can handle boundaries perfectly well. She's handling jail just dandy.

But when push comes to shove, and she has the ability NOT to handle the boundaries, she won't---and she will do as she pleases without a thought to consequence. She tramples those around her with no thought to the effect, unless the effect will somehow influence her.

I am grateful for your insight, April--and also glad you're doing well. And I can definitely see the parallels you drew. But I think there is far, far more to Casey Anthony. (Or, rather, far less. I think she is far less. She is base and evil.)

I think we want to humanize her more so that we can understand her. But you can't understand the inexplicable, other than to say she is lacking humanity. And the diagnosis that that fits isn't BPD.
 
She's a sociopath, no doubt about it.

If you've ever dealt with one, you'll recognize HOW they lie, and she does this without hesitation.

This has very little to do with her parents. She was born this way.
 
She's a sociopath, no doubt about it.

If you've ever dealt with one, you'll recognize HOW they lie, and she does this without hesitation.

This has very little to do with her parents. She was born this way.

So, by Cindy putting on blinders to her behavior, it helped who? Do you think Cindy knew this for a long time & chose not to address it? She is in the health profession, & has labeled KC to other people, has admitted what she thinks. It seems to be a case of pride with this family, not to have anything that appears broken, to the outside world. As LP & Tim M., having lived in the house, both describe the parents walking on eggshells around KC, & this was AFTER she was released from the last video. If I witnessed my child's behavior & lying, lie upon lie to LE & not having a job with my grandchild missing, jail would seem like heaven to them coming home.

It boggles my mind & enrages me the way the family treats her. What if they closed the door to her unless she had answers? Where would she have gone? I would not tolerate 1 minute with her, but they have for 22 yrs....they have helped make the monster she has become!
 
I've mentioned this before, but ..... I am really surprised by the level of Casey's immaturity and the way CA and GA treat her. CA saying she "tucked Casey and Caylee" in, Casey's text messages are immature, just everything about Casey screams immaturity.
 
So, by Cindy putting on blinders to her behavior, it helped who? Do you think Cindy knew this for a long time & chose not to address it? !
As hard as it is for you to believe, it helped Cindy. It helped George. It helped Lee. Denial is a USEFUL tool that allows people to function until they can replace it with another tool. Sometimes, another tool is not found. Nevertheless, the denial allowed them to survive and prevented them from being swallowed whole by Casey's pathology.

In all fairness, we have no idea what Cindy did or did not do to address Casey's issues over time.

But it's irrelevant. There is nothing she COULD do to change the outcome. Casey is a sociopath. Period. Nothing could have, or would have, changed that.

Casey's behavior never gave any indication it would shift to murder. They could not have prevented Caylee's death.

But you can be sure they are doing enough self-flagellation to more than make up for all the punishment the public would like to deliver to them.
 
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