Florida's Stand Your Ground Law

dsntslp · May 6, 2012

I guess I had read further down this thread than I thought I had.
I still don't know what the answer is though.

Concerned Papa · May 6, 2012

AJ Noiter said:
I still contend that his opinion was only sought because of the media coverage of this story. Why wasn't he asked of his opinion of the January killing where a man chased the perpetrator for a block before stabbing him*? It is not just his fault, I also blame the media. Where is the investigative journalism? Did anyone ask him "Do you have any facts to this case that the public hasn't seen?"

* - I have cited this case in another thread and will get the information from it if needed.

I suppose the man who wrote the SYG law should have just kept his opinion to himself and let Frank Taaffe do all the talking.

Nova · May 6, 2012

RANCH said:
I'm curious to know what part of Florida's SYG statute is most bothersome to people. Is it the part that allows deadly force to prevent great bodily harm or the part that says no duty to retreat if in a place were he or she has the right to be?

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ng=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

Not even supposedly liberal California imposes a "duty to retreat" on a person who reasonably believes he is in danger of "death or grave bodily harm".

What seems different and, to me, bothersome about Florida's SYG law is (a) its vagueness and (b) the restrictions it imposes on LE and DAs. In particular, granting a killer "immunity" based on a relatively low burden of proof worries me.

In California, a person may kill his attacker, but he then faces a relatively high burden of proof demonstrating justifiable self-defense in court. I think that's how it should be.

AJ Noiter · May 6, 2012

Concerned Papa said:
I suppose the man who wrote the SYG law should have just kept his opinion to himself and let Frank Taaffe do all the talking.

As far as I'm aware Frank Taaffe isn't holding a political office. That's the difference. It's not that they -can't- give their opinions, the way it has been done by everyone holding a political office is that what they say is factual when, in fact, it can't be factual because they don't have the facts. Even if they did have all of the facts it is my opinion that the education level of many has made it seem as if these individuals actually have a say as to what the written law means.

As I stated in my reply to someone else, I don't just blame him. I also blame the media because investigative journalism died with a great journalist earlier this year.

Lets see the quotes:

“This law does not apply to this particular circumstance,” Bush said after an education panel discussion at the University of Texas at Arlington, The Dallas Morning News reported. “Stand your ground means stand your ground. It doesn’t mean chase after somebody who’s turned their back.” - Newsmax

“He has no protection under my law,” former Sen. Durell Peaden told the newspaper. - LibraryGrape

As you can see, they stated it as a fact based upon one fact of the case. If all cases were as clear cut as that we wouldn't need a jury. The words were said in mistake, not only because they didn't have all of the facts but because they hold a political office and know that their words, even though irrelevant, will sway people to think one way or another. It's irresponsible.

(I do not agree or disagree with the cited websites, they were first matches in google searches.)

rotterdam · May 6, 2012

AJ Noiter said:
I still contend that his opinion was only sought because of the media coverage of this story. Why wasn't he asked of his opinion of the January killing where a man chased the perpetrator for a block before stabbing him*? It is not just his fault, I also blame the media. Where is the investigative journalism? Did anyone ask him "Do you have any facts to this case that the public hasn't seen?"

* - I have cited this case in another thread and will get the information from it if needed.

He is a career politician. Their opinions are like wind sockets. You only hear from them when there is wind and generally matches the popular opinion. Nuff said.

Concerned Papa · May 6, 2012

Remember this simple response from Investigator Dale Gilbreath at the Bond Hearing?

O'MARA: Ok. Besides that any other evidence to support your conclusion that Mr. Zimmerman continued to follow?

GILBREATH:

We have Mr. Zimmerman's statements,

we have the shell casings

and we had Mr. Martin's body.

Remember this exchange of Q & A?

From the Bond Hearing recording at the [1:19:55] mark:

O’MARA: How do you know he was trying to return to his home?

GILBREATH: Because the location he was found in….is probably….and I don’t have the exact measurements….it’s in the path to the back door of the house where he was staying.

O’MARA: I think the evidence suggested it was 70 yards away, right?

GILBREATH: He came from there; I’m assuming he was going back there.

O’MARA: OK.

http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815

Watch this short video and see Francis get in the game being played:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtgG5Y9eUrU"]The Games Zimmerman's People Are Playing - YouTube[/ame]

I didn't know about Francis being in this part of the game until last night. :rocker:

LambChop · May 6, 2012

AJ Noiter said:
As far as I'm aware Frank Taaffe isn't holding a political office. That's the difference. It's not that they -can't- give their opinions, the way it has been done by everyone holding a political office is that what they say is factual when, in fact, it can't be factual because they don't have the facts. Even if they did have all of the facts it is my opinion that the education level of many has made it seem as if these individuals actually have a say as to what the written law means.

As I stated in my reply to someone else, I don't just blame him. I also blame the media because investigative journalism died with a great journalist earlier this year.

Lets see the quotes:

As you can see, they stated it as a fact based upon one fact of the case. If all cases were as clear cut as that we wouldn't need a jury. The words were said in mistake, not only because they didn't have all of the facts but because they hold a political office and know that their words, even though irrelevant, will sway people to think one way or another. It's irresponsible.

(I do not agree or disagree with the cited websites, they were first matches in google searches.)

It's these very legislative and political representatives that make and pass these laws. Who would better understand them then the people who wrote, supported and passed this law to begin with????? jmo

suzihawk · May 6, 2012

Concerned Papa said:
Remember this simple response from Investigator Dale Gilbreath at the Bond Hearing?

Remember this exchange of Q & A?

Watch this short video and see Francis get in the game being played:

The Games Zimmerman's People Are Playing - YouTube

I didn't know about Francis being in this part of the game until last night. :rocker:

Another excellent post, Papa. I noticed the video erroneously states Trayvon was 170 yards from his own back door rather than 70 yards.

LambChop · May 6, 2012

suzihawk said:
Another excellent post, Papa. I noticed the video erroneously states Trayvon was 170 yards from his own back door rather than 70 yards.

It says 170 FEET which is less than 70 yards.

Concerned Papa · May 6, 2012

suzihawk said:
Another excellent post, Papa. I noticed the video erroneously states Trayvon was 170 yards from his own back door rather than 70 yards.

Noooo.....It says 170 feet from "where the side walks meet".

Those two were saying Trayvon died "where the sidewalks meet" and Zimmerman's own attorney said the body was found 70 yards from his back door. That point is 170 feet from where the sidewalks meet.

How are they gonna explain that?

LambChop · May 6, 2012

Concerned Papa said:
Noooo.....It says 170 feet from "where the side walks meet".

Those two were saying Trayvon died "where the sidewalks meet" and Zimmerman's own attorney said the body was found 70 yards from his back door. That point is 170 feet from where the sidewalks meet.

How are they gonna explain that?

Oh, so that is why FT is standing where the sidewalks meet? That really seems strange because wasn't RZ, Sr. at the reenactment? Wouldn't he know where they found the body?

So that would lend credibility to the woman who said she saw two figures run past her window. jmo

Concerned Papa · May 6, 2012

LambChop said:
Oh, so that is why FT is standing where the sidewalks meet? That really seems strange because wasn't RZ, Sr. at the reenactment? Wouldn't he know where they found the body? jmo

That little snip was from a Francis walk through with NBC on 3/21 before charges were filed. 100% of what that side had to say never had George setting a foot off that "main" sidewalk.

I think everyone connected with this apparent coverup knew where that body was located but didn't want it coming out. It blows SYG completely out of the water.

I realize we don't have GPS coordinates or notarized statements signed in blood as to the location at this point, but we do have the defendant's OWN ATTORNEY volunteering the information and the State's Investigator agreeing with it as to what the evidence shows.

For the time being that's solid enough, as far as I'm concerned, to know that "where the sidewalks meet" was never more than a manipulative game.

Donjeta · May 6, 2012

It's very strange to me because GZ was there that night and he knows where TM's body ended up so why isn't it reflected in the narrative of where he was supposedly standing his ground at?

who · May 6, 2012

Concerned Papa said:
That little snip was from a Francis walk through with NBC on 3/21 before charges were filed. 100% of what that side had to say never had George setting a foot off that "main" sidewalk.

I think everyone connected with this apparent coverup knew where that body was located but didn't want it coming out. It blows SYG completely out of the water.

I realize we don't have GPS coordinates or notarized statements signed in blood as to the location at this point, but we do have the defendant's OWN ATTORNEY volunteering the information and the State's Investigator agreeing with it as to what the evidence shows.

For the time being that's solid enough, as far as I'm concerned, to know that "where the sidewalks meet" was never more than a manipulative game.

Maybe I'm just dense this morning, but I'm not getting the difference in locations.

Do you have a visual as to where the body was found, and where they said it was, the "cover-up?"

<runs to get more much-needed coffee>

Concerned Papa · May 6, 2012

who said:
Maybe I'm just dense this morning, but I'm not getting the difference in locations.

Do you have a visual as to where the body was found, and where they said it was, the "cover-up?"

<runs to get more much-needed coffee>

See the attachment below.

-The yellow line is 70 yards or 210 feet from TM's residence per O'Mara's statement at the Bond Hearing.

-The red line is 170 feet from that point to "where the sidewalks meet" as stated by Robert Sr. and shown by Francis T.

LambChop · May 6, 2012

Concerned Papa said:
See the attachment below.

-The yellow line is 70 yards or 210 feet from TM's residence per O'Mara's statement at the Bond Hearing.

-The red line is 170 feet from that point to "where the sidewalks meet" as stated by Robert Sr. and shown by Francis T.

Papa could you put this in the Timeline Thread so we don't lose it. I don't think it could go in the media thread but either one if it is allowed. Thanks

who · May 6, 2012

Concerned Papa said:
See the attachment below.

-The yellow line is 70 yards or 210 feet from TM's residence per O'Mara's statement at the Bond Hearing.

-The red line is 170 feet from that point to "where the sidewalks meet" as stated by Robert Sr. and shown by Francis T.

OK. First, thanks. Very, very much. Your dedication to good sleuthing is appreciated by many.

So, with that attachment - Forgive me again, but brain is still needing engagement.

The "teardrop star" in the center is where you are saying the body was found, and the circled two people at the end is where Zimm & police say it happened?

Concerned Papa · May 6, 2012

who said:
OK. First, thanks. Very, very much. Your dedication to good sleuthing is appreciated by many.

So, with that attachment - Forgive me again, but brain is still needing engagement.

The "teardrop star" in the center is where you are saying the body was found, and the circled two people at the end is where Zimm & police say it happened?

The teardrop star marker is where O'Mara said the evidence indicated the body was located.

The red circle is "where the sidewalks meet".

AJ Noiter · May 6, 2012

LambChop said:
It's these very legislative and political representatives that make and pass these laws. Who would better understand them then the people who wrote, supported and passed this law to begin with????? jmo

You would think he would be educated on the way our government works to know that once it's passed into law he has no control over it anymore, and no authority to say whether or not it does or does not fit a specific scenario. It's not new, the nation has been run this way since the birth. That's not even mentioning the fact that neither of them had the full story. But lets not pretend that the nation hasn't already convicted someone without a trial and evidence.

Elley Mae · May 6, 2012

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/31/v-fullstory/2725442/what-is-known-what-isnt-about.html

In an interview two weeks after the incident, Lee said witness statements and physical evidence backed up Zimmerman’s version of events.“If Trayvon has made it that far, and Zimmerman is getting out of his truck, why doesn’t Trayvon keep walking?” Lee said.

“He’s 70 yards from his house.

I have been trying to find the original "source" of the 70 yards, so far it's looking like Lee.

Florida's Stand Your Ground Law

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