IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #12

nikb said:

Hmmm... I thought I remembered reading that one of the houses was the Collins residence or at least that it was very close by but I can't find the specific post. G'ma reported seeing them in that parking lot. Did someone actually take the girls while in view of the Collins house? I know it's not unheard of in these awful cases but if that DID happen it seems to me less likely it was someone who knew the family well. Wouldn't they know someone in the house would be likely to see them? That seems really bold. Then again I'm thankful it's hard for me to think like a child abductor.

IMO etc.

Click to expand...

Oh yes, nikb! That's another great point. If someone took the girls
that close to grandma's house surely the abductor was a stranger. But then again ......who would abduct children on a traveled street during the day?
:banghead: once again I remember Adam Walsh, taken from a busy mall during the day. :moo:

nikb said:

You're welcome! I feel sort of helpless trying to find these girls, but least I've got a knack for finding stuff on the web (eventually).

Click to expand...

You've done a great job nikb. Thanks.

I have never really come to grips with the guy that said he saw them between 12 and 3. For one thing, that is a large gap of time, though it could be possible he was just not well aware of the time. However, the fact that his wife jumped in with 3 instead of the 1 he started to say, seems odd. Very, very odd. I do hope they have been checked out and that their house has been searched with the dogs.

They may be totally innocent and just trying to be helpful, but they need to be thoroughly checked out anyway.

I think the paddle boat could work only as a lure, perp tells them to meet for a ride , they come to shoreline to get his attention that they made it, and he has two accomplises that come up behind the girls to snatch them. They get the girls in car, he puts the paddle boat back and walks to meeting point

LadyPirate said:

I have never really come to grips with the guy that said he saw them between 12 and 3. For one thing, that is a large gap of time, though it could be possible he was just not well aware of the time. However, the fact that his wife jumped in with 3 instead of the 1 he started to say, seems odd. Very, very odd. I do hope they have been checked out and that their house has been searched with the dogs.

They may be totally innocent and just trying to be helpful, but they need to be thoroughly checked out anyway.

Click to expand...

I don't know if it's an older couple, I think it might be, but it's rather easy if you have no place to be or appointments etc all day to lose track of time imo

Wishbone said:

I am talking about the posters that visited and just going with what they have said they experienced. I have no idea what the children felt, but can somewhat imagine if they were actually abducted from that place.

Click to expand...

Ok, but I fail to see your point, then. It doesn't matter if posters here think it's scary or not... we're talking about two young girls who were abducted from that area which leads to the question of why they were there to start with. Sorry.

elmomom said:

Something I have noticed, sometimes think it is my imagination, sometimes not, is that there seems to be an ever so slight difference in what the FBI say/thinks/wants us to think than what the local PD says/thinks or wants us to think. I can tolerate different styles, but if this is a hint that the two agencies are not functioning well as a team (as is often the case when the FBI steps in to a "local" case) I would be extremely upset. I believe that there is little or no hope of solving this case unless the local PD and the FBI work together.

Click to expand...

Having different opinions doesn't necessarily mean they are not working together. FBI just uses different methods and goes about things a little differently. The main goal is to find the girls so even if each agency follows a different method, hopefully they're in tune with what their purpose is.

My biggest gripe about this case is that they suspended the volunteer searching of the surrounding area.

TxLady2 said:

Ok, but I fail to see your point, then. It doesn't matter if posters here think it's scary or not... we're talking about two young girls who were abducted from that area which leads to the question of why they were there to start with. Sorry.

Click to expand...

Right, you missed my point.

oceanblueeyes said:

I really dont think they were ever there.

Just jumping off your post SS to post my opinion about the kidnapping.

I think it is less likely they would be found if it was a sexual predator. Sierra Lamar still has not been found and so many others are still missing when they were kidnapped. Jimmy Hendrickson's mom has waited 23 years to know who kidnapped her missing son and is still waiting and she by no means is alone.

If LE has no clue who the kidnapper is then they have no clue where he would have taken the children whether they are alive or dead. And even if they find the defendant if he is a stranger to the victim then it is much harder in locating the body of the victim. It literally is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

I dont think the parents know anything about the disappearance of the girls. They are just not smart enough to pull this off and LE not be able to know it by now.

It is much harder to find the children if a sex offender has taken them. Trying to figure out where he took them or dumped their remains is almost impossible. Especially if they have no known link to the children. I truly dont think LE would have ever known who murdered the Greone family or who kidnapped Shasta and Dylan. They were clueless and had never even heard of Joesph Duncan until he brought Shasta back to Denny's in her hometown and they had been investigating that case for 7 long weeks and was making no headway. They never knew he had been cruising the back rural roads looking for children to kidnap.

This person doesnt even have to be a RSO but could have been one who has been sexually abusing those in his own family and finally branched out when he saw the perfect opportunity to kidnap two young girls who were alone. There was nothing stopping him from taking them. They would be no match for a menacing adult male, imo, no matter what location they were kidnapped from.

imo

Click to expand...

You are absolutely right!! I think LE is concentrating more on WHO took them, rather than on the HOW. A lot of seasoned investigators will tell you, don't ever consider that it can't be done, because it can.
One would think it would be too risky for a predator to snatch a child off the street in public, or from their own bedroom, or from their own yard, or a playground or a school yard or in a crowded store... but it has happened. It would surprise most to realize how little attention people pay to what is going on around them. Predators don't think about the risks, all they care about is the rewards.

imamaze said:

Please remember the following when discussing the case:
Websleuths is a moderated forum. We strive to discuss cases in a friendly environment.

Things to know before you post:
Leave the snark -- and the rumors --at the door.
Treat other posters with respect.
Do not sleuth individuals who have not been mentioned in MSM either as persons of interest or as suspects by LE.
Choose the links you post wisely; don't link to sites which feature bizarre speculation, etc.
If you have questions or concerns about a post, alert on that post and contact a mod. Do not quote and/or reply to the post. If you do, and the post is subsequently deleted, your post is subject to deletion, as well.
If you have other questions in general, scroll to the bottom of the page and find "View forum leaders." There you will find a list of moderators available if you need to PM one.
Remember: you can disagree with a post and address it, but you do NOT attack the poster.

No one has been named by LE or MSM as a POI or suspect in this case.
The parents, whatever you may personally think about them, have not been named.
That means that they, and their families, their neighbors, and their friends and "associates," are not to be sleuthed or badmouthed.

Click to expand...

bumping this up. Also: we are not sleuthing craigslist. I am seeing that start to come up again and we are not going to go down that road.

trigger said:

What do you think of this video? Male concern of the missing girls.

FIND IOWA COUSINS NOW adbuction lake girls bike missing search abducted fbi police - YouTube

Click to expand...

He didn't say anything that any other person who follows these cases hasn't already said, and definitely nothing that LE hasn't thought of already.

Amazing what some people will do to get attention. A waste of youtube space, IMO.

TxLady2 said:

Ok, but I fail to see your point, then. It doesn't matter if posters here think it's scary or not... we're talking about two young girls who were abducted from that area which leads to the question of why they were there to start with. Sorry.

Click to expand...

That's the million dollar question. Knowing that Gma wanted to leave soon.
Still reading and catching up here.

There are 4 seater pedal/paddleboats if you google image of one you will see usually 2 pedal in front 2 ride backwards sitting on bench or in own seats. I just feel this all happened in a close area of theyre disapperance. even in a case that if they were maybe taken & bikes staged would take time. energy & cause a scene. Im just wondering why the FBI keeps saying we want to talk to boater but never heard anymore on this person?? Maybe that person was a lookout person for crime being commited or was paddleboating evidence back to scene. Or even had the girls in the boat??? We havent heard much on this but requests for that person to come forward. If you google bing maps put in myers lake get close to ground you can see a few houses very close to the place where bikes where found. A paddle out would take how long??? Im not sure how far those houses are but the appear a hop jump from the crime scene . there was scent was found also in area where ollipop??Im not sure anymore found car tracks heres ollipop info on webslueth I copied paste lots info..

I got pics of the "grassy area" mentioned on Nancy Grace (which I'm now watching for the first time - ever), the wooded area, the lift/pump house and its driveway, the view towards the trail from the lift/pump house, a pic of some clear tire tracks leading back towards the lake, and the cleared path mentioned previously. I walked back along that path and took pics of where it led. I also got pics of where the trail crosses Arbutus (just down from the lift/pump house), as well as where it crosses Gilbert one block from the police station while adjacent to a skatepark.

Those tire tracks were odd. At first I assumed it was some LE or search vehicle, because I know that area had been scoured. But then I got pics of the "grassy parking area" and there is good access to the trail there, as well as the fact that vehicles were easily accessing the back of the lake by using the trail, so why would any vehicle feel the need to completely bushwhack its way thru that underbrush there?

I got home, double-checked my pics. It was still strange. Too wide to be a Gator, and likely only used one time - not beaten down, just looked like brushy undergrowth that had been recently driven thru. So, eventually, I called the tip-line again. Answered first time this time, took my info, sounded genuinely interested, got my name, number, etc.


The lake (why go to that area) ? the paddleboater not coming forward?? the Tire tracks seen by ollipop??? GIrls scents up to the lake?? the empty house for sale owned by last name matches facebook friends & possible related or possible not.. Possible boat house on property from bing map? the abduction in cedar falls (5 year boy)by 3 other people a few days ago how many people are running around doing this as part of daily life not alot but one is too many. how many are woman offenders with web tattoo on left hand hah Friend or not if I seen that on yah u bet Id be calling as quick as my fingers could dial that should be broadcast in everystate or on nancy grace or something!! thee.world should be let in on that creature which may lead to children being saved or future children being harmed AND THat might be a lead too :/

Dr. Know? said:

If both bikes were found against the fence, when did Abben get to the crime scene? That would be a crime scene at that point when the bikes were found. Would they be so lax to move the bikes before CSI arrived? I surely hope not they don't seem dumb. I know Abben's is not the lead on the case so I give him some slack for his honesty if it's that. Abben could have showed up at 10 pm for all we know.

Or

Someone moved them or TG saw different bikes, possibly a different day? But he called his daughter & it was posted on fb. He had to swerve on his bike to miss the bikes in the pathway.. hmmmm

Or

TG's timing is off & there was a runner who saw the bikes? Got me.

I feel they were staged and the girls never even made it to the lake that day. Isn't there a bar, or a truck stop close to Elizabeth's home?

Click to expand...

There is a bar near the parking lot. If the girls frequently road their bikes there its possible the suspect saw them. IMO

I wish the person who found the bikes was interviewed by the media.

Sailorsgirl said:

I know a lot of people have a theory of how the abductor would use the paddle boat to lure the girls. I have a hard time with it though. If it was of such great interest at the beginning of the case, wouldn't LE have checked for fingerprints or other evidence on the boat itself. My problem is, if the boat came back clean for unknown prints (those other than the owners), we have to assume the abductor wiped it down thoroughly after kidnapping the girls. Who would have time to do this other than the owners? (Not implying they did it at all). The person who used it had to take it, paddle it across the lake (alone?), get two girls into it, paddle someplace and bring it back without the owners seeing ... how would he/she know when they would be returning? Also, being in the middle of a lake with two girls in a boat is leaving you in plain sight for as long as it takes you to get to your destination. I would think someone committing a crime wouldn't want to be out and about for very long. In college, I was in a rowboat with a few friends, two of whom decided to smoke an illegal substance. I remember seeing a police car on one of the nearby streets and I yelled at them, "If they see you, idiots, we're in trouble! It's not like we can row away and hide!"

Click to expand...

I don't necessarily buy into the paddleboat theory either-but still wonder if it is plausible? After picking up the girls, they would not necessarily have had to cross the whole lake. Maybe the distance paddled was very short? If the perp was known by the family, he or she could risk being seen giving them a ride, because it could have easily been explained away. If caught, they could have just aborted the plan with no one the wiser.

Just kind of thinking out loud. jmo

I tend to think the paddleboat had to do with establishing a firmer timeline of a witness.

Copper said:

I don't think the girls came to the lane via paddle boat. Besides the questions I have about using the paddle boat in the first place, looking at Otto's picture, it would seem pretty hard to go from lake to lane without disturbing the ground cover.

Also, same thing with walking up the lane to whereever a getaway vehicle was waiting. At least one abductor and two girls, seems like ground cover would be matted down enough to leave some trace.

Any of our locals know, is it all grown over? Are there foot trails that could hide the passage of people coming and going?

Click to expand...

The photos in this link show the terrain on the lakeside of the fence: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...-missing-cousins_n_1681325.html#slide=1238300

cindysue said:

Wow all this talk about how they got over or around the fence and they could have just walked thru the gate!!? Srsly?

Click to expand...

Or Elizabeth could have been forced to throw her purse over the fence by the perp.

Since she had a cell phone in her purse, she may have known it could dial 911 even though deactivated. If Lyric was accosted by someone who reached out and jerked her off her bicycle as she went by (a lot easier to do than to type), Elizabeth may have fumbled with her purse to get to her phone.

The perp may have seen her fumble with her purse and ordered her to throw it over the fence. That would put it safely out of her reach quickly.

Then hustle the two girls to the end of the fence (approximately 100 yards) and into the woods.

I think this would be the fastest way to get the girls out of sight in the woods. Going up and over the fence would require the perpetrator to maintain control of at least one girl all the way up and over. I think it would be faster to walk the 100 yards briskly than it would be to climb a 6-8 foot fence.

In assessing whether something is "too risky," it's always important to ask who is assessing the risk. Someone normal or someone who has psychopathy?

To a psychopath, the salient features would be how quickly or easily something could be done rather than how risky that plan is.

otto said:

The photos in this link show the terrain on the lakeside of the fence: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...-missing-cousins_n_1681325.html#slide=1238300

Click to expand...

Thanks for posting those! Is that the gate that was found open in photo 12?