Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #8

I never could figure out the other searches on the computer & I, like most of you, thought she was going after her parents. However, after listening to the computer forensics today I've changed my mind.

She was planning to kill Caylee back in March. I think she planned the "accidental drowning" theory back then, & saying that she HAD administered CPR which would/could cause CPR injuries in a child such as neck-breaking, ruptured spleen, & chest trauma. Guess she just decided to excellerate it after the argument with CA.

Premeditated, I'm convinced of that!

JusticeSeeker1960 said:

I never could figure out the other searches on the computer & I, like most of you, thought she was going after her parents. However, after listening to the computer forensics today I've changed my mind.

She was planning to kill Caylee back in March. I think she planned the "accidental drowning" theory back then, & saying that she HAD administered CPR which would/could cause CPR injuries in a child such as neck-breaking, ruptured spleen, & chest trauma. Guess she just decided to excellerate it after the argument with CA.

Premeditated, I'm convinced of that!

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This makes total sense.........and yes, "premeditated".

MissJames said:

I still believe that whatever happened to Caylee was triggered by CA confronting ICA about stealing from Shirley Plesea,CA's mom.
We all know how arguments on one matter can turn into a laundry list of everything the person has ever done wrong .
I don't doubt that ICA had considered getting rid of Caylee before,but whatever happened on June 15th set that desire into motion.
I think the duct tape was placed on Caylee in Casey's bedroom the night of the 15th.JMO

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I agree. I also think that Caylee was put into the trunk that night. No one saw Caylee the next morning. All the lies and changing stories about that night and the next morning means something wasn't right. George never saw her leave at 12:50 because he called the house to speak to her that afternoon. He knew she was there when he left. When she didn't answer he called her on her cell phone. If he did see her leave at 12:50 with the usual routine of "kisses and hugs" then why did KC say she dropped Caylee off between 9am and 1pm? She would have said she dropped her off sometime after 1pm. Why was Caylee found in something she would be more likely to have been sleeping in? A t-shirt, diaper, and no shoes. Nothing is consistent in their stories of the night before or the morning of the 16th. There's a reason for that and I think it's because Caylee died the night of the 15th or early hours of the 16th.

I've always felt Caylee died in the wee morning hours of the 16th. KC was freshly angered and feeling trapped, longing to be a TonE's instead of home because of her "snothead"... I thought she chloroformed her there in KC's bed while talking/texting to TonE-- then decided she never wanted Caylee to wake again, got the duct tape, put it on, then dissed her with a sticker.

I think George's account of the morning may indeed be bunk-- I think she may have carried Caylee out beneath that blanket that was in the car, told George the baby was sleeping and she was in a hurry to get to work. Because of the trouble the night before, George may not have even said goodbye... then into the truck she went. That's jmo.

darnudes said:

I've been working on this theory for a while and would like to hear opinions on it. I'm not going to include every detail for the whole day but the ones I think are important.

3.00pm-4.00pm - Low computer usage, suggesting that Casey is getting some stuff together and tidying house to make it look like she's not been there - there is time available here for her to duct tape Caylee - if there is no post mortem banding on the hair in the duct tape and Caylee was still alive when it was put on it would have to be on this day that she does that - if Casey had just chloroformed Caylee and left her in the car until 2pm the next day I believe Caylee would have been dead already by that point - Also Casey backs her car into the garage the next day so she knew that Caylee was dead in the back.

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Respectfully snipped for space and BBM. This whole thing seems totally plausible and I am trying to go with it. Just curious on why the scenario doesn't work if there is postmortem banding? Sorry if that's a dumb question. It just seems to me that there is no reason that the banding would make your scenario any less correct and it just may not be clicking with me.

Cubby said:

Casey certainly would have been a suspect had she murdered her parents. Not to say she wouldn't be on trial for murdering someone other than Caylee - possibly her parents. I just don't think she intended to kill Caylee and that Caylee was somehow collateral damage (for a lack of a better what to phrase it) with whatever the reason was for Casey to have done many of the strange things and the topics about which Casey lied in the months preceeding Caylees death. Only Casey knows the truth and I don't think anyone but she and God will ever know exactly what that truth is.

jmo

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I think the original plan was to kill her parents...but that would be too much "work"

HRCODEPINK said:

Respectfully snipped for space and BBM. This whole thing seems totally plausible and I am trying to go with it. Just curious on why the scenario doesn't work if there is postmortem banding? Sorry if that's a dumb question. It just seems to me that there is no reason that the banding would make your scenario any less correct and it just may not be clicking with me.

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It's a confusing issue for me, don't worry

Post mortem banding occurs between 2 -15 days after death.
There was no post mortem banding on the hair on the duct tape.
There was post mortem banding on a single hair found in the trunk.

The force of duct taping a live child or a struggling child could have pulled those hairs from the scalp (or a child struggling awake after the effects of chloroform wear off but finding it cannot breathe due to duct tape) - so the hair is attached to the duct tape (but not the skull) on a live Caylee but a soon to be dead Caylee and as they are not attached no post mortem banding. There is no other hair found with Caylee's remains other than this duct tape hair.

A stray hair still attached to Caylee's head (but not the duct tape) which shows post mortem banding is somehow pulled off when Caylee is put into the garbage/laundry bags and stays in the trunk.

darnudes said:

It's a confusing issue for me, don't worry

Post mortem banding occurs between 2 -15 days after death.
There was no post mortem banding on the hair on the duct tape.
There was post mortem banding on a single hair found in the trunk.

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Edited to correct

There were in fact numerous hairs with apparent decomp roots found on Q59 which is the hair mass.

FBI report here, page 7 of 30.

So I'm still not sure how the state is going to show that duct tape was put on Caylee before she died.

http://www.baynews9.com/uploadedfiles/Stories/Local/GASTANK-DUCTTAPEEVIDENCE.pdf

(BBM)

darnudes said:

darnudes said:

It's a confusing issue for me, don't worry

Post mortem banding occurs between 2 -15 days after death.
There was no post mortem banding on the hair on the duct tape.
There was post mortem banding on a single hair found in the trunk.

Edited to correct

There were in fact numerous hairs with apparent decomp roots found on Q59 which is the hair mass.

FBI report here, page 7 of 30.

So I'm still not sure how the state is going to show that duct tape was put on Caylee before she died.

http://www.baynews9.com/uploadedfiles/Stories/Local/GASTANK-DUCTTAPEEVIDENCE.pdf

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(RE:BBM Above) I've wondered this myself darnudes but now, since hearing Dr. G's testimony, I have ask, "Does the state actually have to prove that the tape was applied BEFORE death?" Dr.G's statement that there is NO REASON for any child to have duct tape on their face, in my opinion, sums it up in a nutshell. You have a known liar (now established and known to the jury) claiming that her child drowned. How then does a child who supposedly drowned get duct tape on her face? It appears that the DT's explanation is going to be that RK did it but IF the jury doesn't buy it (and I predict they won't), you're back to square one. Square one is the known liar (ICA) claiming that her child drowned in a pool. This is where I believe ICA's history will come into play. A history of silence for the past 3 years regarding Caylee having drowned in the backyard pool, a history of wearing a "Where's Caylee" t-shirt (even wearing one when she was arrested and taken into custody the second time) all the while KNOWING her child was dead, a history of showing no grief/emotion following Caylee's death (her friends all stated that they saw no change in her deposition), a history of tormenting her parents, as witnessed through jail visit videos, as they desparately asked/searched for answers and got NOTHING. Her history goes on and on and, at this point, it speaks for itself. Her history over the past 3 years goes far beyond the measure of "A liar doth not make a murderer." As far as I'm concerned, even if the scientific evidence is lacking regarding the placement of the tape, before or after death, one would have to give an unreasonable amount of benefit of doubt to ICA (considering her established history) in order to disregard the state's case about the duct tape. I guess If the defense is so worried about it they'll have to put ICA on the stand to explain just exactly what transpired, step-by-step, after GA supposedly handed her Caylee's limp little dead body...considering her 3-year history I don't think her word (or her lawyers word for that matter) is going to mean too much to this jury.

JMO ~

darnudes said:

It's a confusing issue for me, don't worry

Post mortem banding occurs between 2 -15 days after death.
There was no post mortem banding on the hair on the duct tape.
There was post mortem banding on a single hair found in the trunk.

The force of duct taping a live child or a struggling child could have pulled those hairs from the scalp (or a child struggling awake after the effects of chloroform wear off but finding it cannot breathe due to duct tape) - so the hair is attached to the duct tape (but not the skull) on a live Caylee but a soon to be dead Caylee and as they are not attached no post mortem banding. There is no other hair found with Caylee's remains other than this duct tape hair.

A stray hair still attached to Caylee's head (but not the duct tape) which shows post mortem banding is somehow pulled off when Caylee is put into the garbage/laundry bags and stays in the trunk.

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Oh, okay! I get it now (I think, hehe). Not what was still attached to the skull, just what was attached to the duct tape. Thank you!

I think Casey can be grandiose in her thinking but lacks the wherewithal to follow through on much. She couldn’t even be bothered to dispose of the dead body for several days. Even most cold-blooded killers would want to rid themselves of the body if for nothing else to separate themselves from the evidence. Because of this I think there are numerous possibilities for what Casey may have initially hoped to do.
Another possibility would be that she wanted to get rid of her parents and Caylee. She killed Caylee first as she would only be in the way of her other plans. She then planned on using chloroform to knock out her parents and then stage the scene to look like someone killed them in order to kidnap Caylee. The neck-breaking and self-defense searches would help her stage injuries to her parents so they appeared to have actually put up a fight in order to lessen the possibility of drug testing the bodies. She had told some friends that Caylee was with her parents during this time.
Of course this scenario has numerous holes in it but look at the story she initially presented in regard to Caylee’s absence. I’m not saying I believe this but I do think it fits into Casey’s narcissistic and grandiose thinking.

Was there any testimony to the jury and/or any info released in documents that says the state has hair snagged in the duct tape that has no pm banding? I haven't seen or heard this (and I just read the FBI report linked, maybe I missed it?)

If she was so murderous, why didn't she kill George when he was alone at the house when she popped in that one time and didn't expect to see him there? I am pretty sure if her parents were missing, I really don't think Lee would wait 35 days to report them missing.

There just is not anything substantial that shows she wanted her child dead. I will say it again, if you are planning a murder disposal is a huge factor in the plan, she kept that child in her car, driving around and she could have been caught at any time. The Defense and State have shown Casey has big problems coping with real life issues, including her graduation and pregnancy. I have no doubts that child died in the pool and it was not in the plans. She left her purse in there, she was staging a carjacking with her child in it or something, things just didn't turn out as planned, and really had Cindy not called Amy and found out where Casey was, they may have called and made a missing police report about the both of them, imo.

I'm not sure why she would have killed George when he was alone. She'd still have the problem of her mother. I'm not sure how long it would take Lee to report it changes anything. I actually think IF she were planning on killing her parents she would have reported it herself in order to explain any evidence found connecting her to the scene.

I'm not convinced at all she planned on killing her parents but I do think there are possible scenarios based on the evidence presented in court. We have no way of knowing if she had a plan disposing of Caylee but was unable to follow through on it...thus attempted burial and eventually throwing her in the woods. Just because someone doesn't follow through on a plan (for whatever reason) doesn't mean they didn't have one.

sappysoul said:

I'm not sure why she would have killed George when he was alone. She'd still have the problem of her mother. I'm not sure how long it would take Lee to report it changes anything. I actually think IF she were planning on killing her parents she would have reported it herself in order to explain any evidence found connecting her to the scene.

I'm not convinced at all she planned on killing her parents but I do think there are possible scenarios based on the evidence presented in court. We have no way of knowing if she had a plan disposing of Caylee but was unable to follow through on it...thus attempted burial and eventually throwing her in the woods. Just because someone doesn't follow through on a plan (for whatever reason) doesn't mean they didn't have one.

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I just think she was lying to Amy about moving in to seem more cool to her or something, and I have no doubts when Amy was about to move, Casey would have made up some story where her parents wouldn't have been moving out and they would have been the bad guys. Caylee was more of value alive to Casey than dead. When something happened to Caylee, Casey split and was sneaking back into the house when she knew her parents were gone to get food for her and Tony and stuff like that. I just don't think this was planned, why not drain Amys account and get a cheap ticket to Mexico or something and go on the run, why not become a missing person yourself?

I'm not sure this is the thread to debate possibilities and again, I'm not saying she planned on offing her folks but it is certainly within the realm of possibilities considering the evidence. A increasingly verbal Caylee would have been a major obstacle in Casey's lifestyle. No more lies about where and how they spent their time. A real, not imagined, job would have become a necessity sooner rather than later.

sappysoul said:

I'm not sure this is the thread to debate possibilities and again, I'm not saying she planned on offing her folks but it is certainly within the realm of possibilities considering the evidence. A increasingly verbal Caylee would have been a major obstacle in Casey's lifestyle. No more lies about where and how they spent their time. A real, not imagined, job would have become a necessity sooner rather than later.

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No, its not about debate, this is about theories, and I just wonder if she was truly a murderer, why did she even stick around, the world was her oyster, had she just killed her child you would have thought she would have split town, it would have been way easier then sticking around and getting caught, she could have also been a "missing" person and had her daughter been found dead, and she was missing, she would maybe also be presumed to be missing, and had that happened, pretty much every person would talk about how much she loved her child and how if she was missing she could also be in danger, and not really the perp.

I'm not sure a theory needs to be based on rational thinking because even the defense theory is far from rational. If it wasn't a murder then why hide it and lie about it for so long? That goes way beyond rational, even if you initially panicked and tried to cover it up. I think Casey was totally focused on her relationship with Tony and wouldn't have left due to this situation. If she killed Caylee to be able to stay with Tony and "be free" it wouldn't make sense to then leave town. Considering how long she stayed with the story of Zanny even after it was proven bogus one could think she thought it would fly and she wouldn't have to become a fugitive. We have seen nothing to indicate Casey was good at being rational or giving much thought to consequences. Whatever met her needs at the moment was given priority and she'd lie her way out of it if she ever had to face the consequences. It was a way of life for her.

In my opinion the chloroform recipe Casey probably tried making wasn't effective and Casey grew frustrated when a struggling Caylee kept waking back up/moving and because Casey wasn't able to hold her hands or an object over Caylee's face well enough she got the duct tape and held her arms. I think Casey intended on "putting Caylee to sleep" so she wouldn't have to see or deal with it but it got complicated and ugly and that's why she decided to hide Caylee's body. She wouldn't be able to get that duct tape off Caylee's face and out of her hair to convince emergency response teams/George and Cindy etc. that a tragic accident had occurred with her daughter.

Finally, after all these years, I think I've come to a conclusion about 'what happened to Caylee'.

Based on the how-to-make-chloroform webpage, (which i was afraid to look at, but ended up being pretty amazed by) I do wonder what method she used to extract the chloroform "bubbles" from the rest of the solution. The directions said not to use an eyedropper because of the volatility of the chlor.

Maybe she used that syringe and gatorade bottle that were found at the scene. Maybe she made the chloroform WRONG...maybe it didn't work, at least not the way Casey expected. It could have sent the poor baby into respiratory distress, or maybe she was screaming... maybe casey grabbed the duct tape to finish the process quietly.

The sticker was Casey's rationalization for what she had done...
Sleep well...mommy loves you...
:cry: