Bleach: Brendan's pants and the garage floor

MaxManning said:

He didn't - he said that brendan was going to help steve clean the garage. My wording was poor.

But again, if he doesn't say bleach was used to clean, does that even matter ? what if he used 401 ? what if he used pine sol ?

I just mentioned bryan , because he is another person who mentions cleaning of steve's garage floor.

I mention bleach because it matches the pants. So why is it unrealistic to assume he used bleach ? i find it funny that people have a problem with that.

If they chose to use oxygenated bleach, wouldn't that indicate they understood more than most of us that it was capable of cleaning blood ???

But that would have been capable of cleaning blood -- which we know was not the case here, whether chlorine bleach was used or not, because there was a luminol hit for blood

haha. This is bizarre why anyone is having trouble getting that the reason they didn't specify the bleach in the trial is because the type was irrelevant. It was assumed that it was chlorine bleach because of brendan's pants.

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Chlorine bleach is a common crime scene contaminant. When chlorine bleach is poured in a garage to the extent it is splashing on Brendan's pants, and used to wipe up blood, that garage should have lit up like a Christmas tree, and wiping patterns should have been present. I linked an article about this in thread #2. The jurors shouldn't be assuming what kind of bleach is used, this is a trial, it deals w. evidence. if the State wants to use Brendan's pants to show he used chlorine bleach to clean Avery's garage, then prove it, and I'll accept it. Until then, I'm not accepting Brendan cleaned that garage on hearsay and his "confession". I respect your opinion on this issue, but I think it's completely valid for people to also believe that chlorine bleach was not used to clean Avery's garage.


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Oh now I gotcha!!
I thought you were trying to sneak that pillow in again:laughing:

MaxManning said:

I think there is a major misunderstanding by many about the garage floor.

There was a luminol hit on the floor for blood. That is fact. (except to those of you who believe nothing can be trusted)
So there is zero chance that oxygenated bleach was used.
There is no proof that chlorine bleach was used on the floor.
Barb says she questioned brendan about his pants being bleached on that night, he said they got bleached while cleaning steve's floor.
Bryan says Brendan was going to help Steve clean his floor --- didn't say bleach. But if he didn't say what was used, does that mean it was pine sol or 401 or whatever ? was it possibly still bleach ?
Brendan's pants are bleached as his mother said. - we assume that chlorine bleach is what bleached his pants. NOT oxygenated bleach, because that would not stain. So irrelevant to anything i'm saying.

That's all -- i'm amazed that anything above is hard to believe, possible or even likely

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If there is no proof chlorine bleach was used in the garage then why was it even brought up? I am so confused now


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bessie said:

The idea is to start breaking out the more salient points and issues into topic specific threads. The topic needn't be the question of oxygen bleach, per se, but rather the relevance of BD's bleach stained jeans. Just a suggestion.

It's up to you guys. I'm trying to give you the option to start your own threads on topics you see as relevant.

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Yeah, I think if someone starts a topic on chlorine vs oxygenated in relation to blood, that's fine - because I'm pretty confident it has zero relevance to any of this. Unless someone thinks there is reason to believe oxygenated bleach was used -- i see absolutely no evidence of that.

I only see a floor with a luminol hit for blood ---means no oxygenated bleach could have been used
I see a pair of bleached pants -- oxygenated bleach wouldn't do that.

Brendan Dassey's defense attorney, Mark Fremgen opening statement regarding the use of bleach that day -

They go into the garage, and there’s a small area behind the lawnmower as if something had spilled. Steven takes some gasoline and pours it onto this little area, and they use some clothing, old rags, that sop up the mess, and as they begin to clean it up with these old clothes and old rags, they throw them onto the fire, and they do that for about a half hour. Steven tries some gasoline and paints — paint thinner to help clean up the area, and some bleach as well.

Pg 85 of 256

https://www.dropbox.com/s/c9ow4lwzec007mi/dassey_4_16_07.pdf?dl=0

stephsb said:

If there is no proof chlorine bleach was used in the garage then why was it even brought up? I am so confused now


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haha. someone mentioned the comment barb made regarding what brendan told her about the pants.

It's obvious that chlorine bleach stained his pants.

If we believe barb janda was told by brendan that he helped clean steve's garage floor with bleach -- then yes, you believe the floor was bleached.

Chlorine bleach does NOT clean blood, so that is consistent with the blood stain in the garage as there was a luminol hit --- it doesn't mean there was chlorine bleach is proven to be used, it just means we believe brendan, barb and his pants.

Bryan says that brendan was going to clean steve's garage floor. No mention of bleach. But it's another person that mentions cleaning that floor. What was used, is not important to his statement. Only to corroborate that brendan did indeed help clean the garage floor -- of whatever was there oil, or whatnot.

Brendan's PANTS in addition to all this stuff above, suggests that he indeed was using bleach, if barb and brendan are telling the truth.

Again, I honestly find that most probable is that they were honest because they had no reason to lie. Does't mean they didn't lie, but just means i think lying would have been the thing that would have spared them alot of grief -- not telling the truth.

so yes, i think that makes me believe it's probable that it's truth.

no facts. just probability and plausibility.

MaxManning said:

Yeah, I think if someone starts a topic on chlorine vs oxygenated in relation to blood, that's fine - because I'm pretty confident it has zero relevance to any of this. Unless someone thinks there is reason to believe oxygenated bleach was used -- i see absolutely no evidence of that.

I only see a floor with a luminol hit for blood ---means no oxygenated bleach could have been used
I see a pair of bleached pants -- oxygenated bleach wouldn't do that.

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Ok, here's one for you - a poster said there was an empty bottle of bleach in Steven's bathroom. What kind of bleach was it? I'm sure no one knows.

PrimeSuspect said:

Brendan Dassey's defense attorney, Mark Fremgen opening statement regarding the use of bleach that day -

They go into the garage, and there’s a small area behind the lawnmower as if something had spilled. Steven takes some gasoline and pours it onto this little area, and they use some clothing, old rags, that sop up the mess, and as they begin to clean it up with these old clothes and old rags, they throw them onto the fire, and they do that for about a half hour. Steven tries some gasoline and paints — paint thinner to help clean up the area, and some bleach as well.

Pg 85 of 256

https://www.dropbox.com/s/c9ow4lwzec007mi/dassey_4_16_07.pdf?dl=0

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Thanks for finding that PrimeSuspect

It came up on thread #1, and the garage is consistent with :

a) having a 3x3 / 3x4 bloodstain spot - human, deer or some kind of blood via luminol test - YES there was a luminol hit, this is fact and stated in dassey trial and accepted by defense.
b) bleach cannot be determined as being definitively used, but nothing about the garage is inconsistent with bleach being used. So if brendan said bleach was used, it's consistent.
c) brendan's pants had bleach stains.
d) it cannot be proven that brendan cleaned that floor that night with bleach.
e) If he didn't clean the floor with bleach
----1) barb maybe lied about what brendan told -- see no reason why she'd do that
----2) brendan lied to his mother because the truth was not something he wanted to admit -- ie he ruined his pants while trying to launder them ? plausible, but for me, more probable he was truthful
----3) bryan was either mistaken or lied about what brendan was doing, as he stated brendan was going to help steve clean the floor. -- didn't mention bleach, but not sure why he'd even say at that point. likely didn't know.



I'm out of this one now, because it's really just a matter of whether you believe it's probable that Barb or Brendan or Bryan would lie about that day -- or that the statements are incorrect/coerced.

If you believe like I do that they had no reason to lie, you'd believe it was likely the truth.

Even more convincing to me, is that NOT saying any of this likely saves them all quite a bit of grief. yet... they did indeed say these things, and without any coercion. (to my knowledge)

None of what is above relies on oxygenated bleach.
None of it relies on anyone understanding of what kind of bleach cleans blood.
None of it relies on any guilt by ANYONE

It just relies on us believing what people said, when they likely had no reason to lie.

PrimeSuspect said:

Brendan Dassey's defense attorney, Mark Fremgen opening statement regarding the use of bleach that day -

They go into the garage, and there’s a small area behind the lawnmower as if something had spilled. Steven takes some gasoline and pours it onto this little area, and they use some clothing, old rags, that sop up the mess, and as they begin to clean it up with these old clothes and old rags, they throw them onto the fire, and they do that for about a half hour. Steven tries some gasoline and paints — paint thinner to help clean up the area, and some bleach as well.

Pg 85 of 256

https://www.dropbox.com/s/c9ow4lwzec007mi/dassey_4_16_07.pdf?dl=0

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The pg before that puts SA in the cart that the dog later hit on for remains.

stephsb said:

Chlorine bleach is a common crime scene contaminant. When chlorine bleach is poured in a garage to the extent it is splashing on Brendan's pants, and used to wipe up blood, that garage should have lit up like a Christmas tree, and wiping patterns should have been present. I linked an article about this in thread #2. The jurors shouldn't be assuming what kind of bleach is used, this is a trial, it deals w. evidence. if the State wants to use Brendan's pants to show he used chlorine bleach to clean Avery's garage, then prove it, and I'll accept it. Until then, I'm not accepting Brendan cleaned that garage on hearsay and his "confession". I respect your opinion on this issue, but I think it's completely valid for people to also believe that chlorine bleach was not used to clean Avery's garage.


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So the fact that I'm saying what Brendan's defense lawyer says happened, means nothing to you ?

Please just go to the 4/16 dassey trial doc and read what brendan's lawyer said happened on page 85, and if he used bleach. Then just say you don't believe him

I don't understand why you have a problem with what his own defense is saying :

They go into the garage, and there’s a small area behind the lawnmower as if something had spilled. Steven takes some gasoline and pours it onto this little area, and they use some clothing, old rags, that sop up the mess, and as they begin to clean it up with these old clothes and old rags, they throw them onto the fire, and they do that for about a half hour. Steven tries some gasoline and paints — paint thinner to help clean up the area, and some bleach as well

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This keeps getting questioned when I mention it. But it's not even something the dassey defense denied. In fact they are using it , to explain the pants.

This is dizzying. I apologize if I am somehow being unclear, but to me personally this makes complete sense, and apparently the defense lawyer is in agreement.

However.. if someone thinks that I am saying this to incriminate brendan - they get all defensive.

To me, it's just very reasonable stuff. It actually calls no one a liar and incriminates no one.

I keep saying the defense accepts this, and never even mentions oxygenated bleach, because it's completely irrelevant. just confusing the core point.

Of course he would have bleach on his pants if he helped SA clean a garage with bleach. The question is, was he helping him clean deer blood, TH's blood, or did he even know what SA was cleaning up?

To me, bleach on the pants of a boy we can clearly see being railroaded by LE isn't some smoking gun as evidence he knowingly committed a horrendous murder. My favorite is the "incriminating evidence" of a bottle of bleach existing anywhere on that property. It's such a common item. JMO

Tawny said:

Of course he would have bleach on his pants if he helped SA clean a garage with bleach. The question is, was he helping him clean deer blood, TH's blood, or did he even know what SA was cleaning up?

To me, bleach on the pants of a boy we can clearly see being railroaded by LE isn't some smoking gun as evidence he knowingly committed a horrendous murder. My favorite is the "incriminating evidence" of a bottle of bleach existing anywhere on that property. It's such a common item. JMO

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Zero argument on what you say here, and it's what I've said numerous times.

Which is why I am just beyond confused as to why people just want to keep debating this bleach stuff.

Only thing I am saying is that I BELIEVE that brendan helped Steve clean the floor that day.

There is NOTHING wrong with that, and the defense is telling us that it was completely innocent and brendan had no idea what he was cleaning or if it was blood or oil or anything else.

Debating that bleach was used or not and what type, just seems silly, because it changes nothing. The defense is saying that the bleach stains on the pants came from this event.



The bleach , the cleaning, and even the spot on the floor in themselves are not incriminating. Similar events happen everyday in garages all over this country, without a murder.

chaleigh26 said:

Oh now I gotcha!!
I thought you were trying to sneak that pillow in again:laughing:

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Haha, not here.

But yet another topic that people refuse to accept is plausible. They apparently think that the only way someone can kill someone is by choosing a method that maximizes splatter.

I am not even convinced she was killed in that garage.

But choosing to shoot someone and splatter blood all over the place, isn't plausible to me. But one reason to insist that's the way it HAD TO HAPPEN is so you can say "How did they clean up all that splatter?"

In that case, it's a great position to take

just not that objective and ignores very plausible alternatives

TheDuchess said:

Well, it is quite possible he used bleach to clean the garage, however, the chlorine bleach that stains clothes doesn't get rid of blood. So it is truly immaterial, no?

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Maybe they watched A LOT of TV commercials and saw that annoying guy and used Oxy Clean. I'm just kidding. I didn't know about the chlorine bleach and blood....thanks!
I did find a site that has some good info about general forensics, though.
http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/

MaxManning said:

haha. someone mentioned the comment barb made regarding what brendan told her about the pants.

It's obvious that chlorine bleach stained his pants.

If we believe barb janda was told by brendan that he helped clean steve's garage floor with bleach -- then yes, you believe the floor was bleached.

Chlorine bleach does NOT clean blood, so that is consistent with the blood stain in the garage as there was a luminol hit --- it doesn't mean there was chlorine bleach is proven to be used, it just means we believe brendan, barb and his pants.

Bryan says that brendan was going to clean steve's garage floor. No mention of bleach. But it's another person that mentions cleaning that floor. What was used, is not important to his statement. Only to corroborate that brendan did indeed help clean the garage floor -- of whatever was there oil, or whatnot.

Brendan's PANTS in addition to all this stuff above, suggests that he indeed was using bleach, if barb and brendan are telling the truth.

Again, I honestly find that most probable is that they were honest because they had no reason to lie. Doesn't mean they didn't lie, but just means i think lying would have been the thing that would have spared them a lot of grief -- not telling the truth.

so yes, i think that makes me believe it's probable that it's truth.

no facts. just probability and plausibility.

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BBM

Sorry to have to resurrect this old thread - but apparently some folks still believe that the kind of bleach that got on Brendan's jeans is a kind of bleach that erases blood evidence and DNA.

"Murderers desperate to get rid of evidence might want to consider using bleach to wash away stains. But not just any bleach will do. When old-school chlorine-based bleach is splashed all over blood-stained clothing, even if the clothes are washed ten times, DNA is still detected.

So for the criminal aspiring for perfection, here’s the secret you’ll need to know: It’s the oxygen-producing detergents that will get rid of any incriminating evidence for good.


Researchers at the University of Valencia tested oxygen bleach on blood-stained clothing for two hours and found that it destroys all DNA evidence. Forensic tests such as luminol tests rely on the ability of blood to uptake oxygen: A protein in the blood called hemoglobin (responsible for transporting oxygen throughout the body) reacts with hydrogen peroxide and gives a positive test result.


Chlorine-based detergents contaminate blood, but leave behind intact hemoglobin."


http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d...-murder-use-a-special-detergent/#.WLy5Un81yxk

So the bleach spots on Brendan's jeans mean nothing, yet some folks have been fooled into thinking it's 'evidence' of a crime having been committed. Sad.

IMHO

proudfootz said:

So the bleach spots on Brendan's jeans mean nothing, yet some folks have been fooled into thinking it's 'evidence' of a crime having been committed. Sad.

INHO

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RSBM

Don't go confusing people with the FACTS proudfootz

They were confused already.

MOO

proudfootz said:

They were confused already.

MOO

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:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

Here are BD's bleached jeans.

I saw the picture awhile back when KK's gf shared it on twitter.