"G (Guilty)" vs "NG (Not Guilty)" Where do you stand? #2

Status
Not open for further replies.
Have you ever tried to put pieces of duct tape on something very tightly with one hand? It's impossible - you have to use both hands - one to hold the first end of the duct tape and the other to wrap and smooth. If you don't believe me, try applying duct tape with one hand to a small pillow and wrap it tightly. Not only that, there is no way to line the duct tape pieces up using one hand. Remember this duct tape was wrapped so tightly that it was still holding the mandible in place after the body was skeletonized. That is super tight. If Caylee were alive when the duct tape was being put on, she would be struggling -also making it impossible for Casey to line the pieces of tape up and get them on tightly.

Unless Caylee were somehow incapacitated (e.g., drugged) prior to the duct tape being applied.
 
Wouldn't be such a task to tape a baby's face. I could do it and use both hands. Am sure KC is probably as coordinated as I am. I had to hold one of my kids down to give his meds. Yup---never spilled one drop.

You lay the child down on the floor (well, I did)---put lil arms to their sides and put a knee on each side---holding arms close to body---then reach for the tape---rip---with index fanger and thumb of each hand, grab ends of tape---hold baby's sweet lil face with the 6 fangers you have free, grab sides of her face (probably about the hair line on the sides)---put tape on mouth and grab the ends of tape with rest of fangers cuz right now you can control and hold her head still and push very hard---making the tape tight.

Yup---thats the way I see it. Wouldn't be hard at all.
 
Please continue here.

Guilty 1st Degree Murder - Totally Premeditated

Guilty 2nd Degree Murder

Guilty Manslaughter - Not premeditated but during a Rage attack or a snapped moment

Not Guilty - Complete Accident

Completely Innocent

This thread is about is "Casey is guilty" for the above reasons. PLEASE stay on the topic.

TRY and get in your comments Casey is Guilty of etc., because ......
 
Unless Caylee were somehow incapacitated (e.g., drugged) prior to the duct tape being applied.

Yes, I agree, that is a possibility. If she were drugged first and then taped that would imply premeditation, IMO.
 
Within moments of dying a person's mouth gapes open. It's very disturbing and shocking to see someone like this. The duct tape was put on strongly enough to hold Caylee's mandible in place even after decomposition which indicates to me that holding the mandible in place may be the actual reason for the duct tape. I think that the heart shaped sticker actually indicates that Casey was trying to fix this problem. I don't think Casey had ever been around someone who died (all of her grandparents are aparently alive) and I suspect she would be unaware that normally the mandible is closed after death with a headband that goes under the chin and around the top of the head.

The other part of this is twofold:

1. The duct tape was put on the front of Caylee's face only - not wrapped around the back of her head. I agree. If you were going to tape over a mouth and nose that would be the natural way to position the child.
That indicates to me that Caylee was probably on her back when the duct tape was applied. I think Caylee was on her back, too.
2. The duct tape was put on in several strips that were layered.
If Caylee were alive and thrashing about because she couldn't breathe, it would be very difficult to layer the duct tape with additional pieces and place the heart shaped sticker. It wouldn't be hard if KC were sitting on her with an arm under each leg. Read Mama's Bear's post. One of the nurses who posts on WS Caylee threads posted about using the very same technique at her work.

For all these reasons, I believe it was put on immediately following Caylee's death.

My responses are in red.

Lots of young mothers have claimed to have hidden a dead child due to a horrific surprise accident they were afraid to tell anyone about. But, to my knowledge, no parent has ever duct taped up his or her dead child's nose and mouth to close an open mouth or stop fluid leakage.

Duct tape is pretty commonly used to prevent screams and/or breathing. If taping up open mouths was a natural response to the sight of a dead baby it would be a common defense. Not the case.

1st degree. KC used more than one strip of tape.
 
Have you ever tried to put pieces of duct tape on something very tightly with one hand? It's impossible - you have to use both hands - one to hold the first end of the duct tape and the other to wrap and smooth. If you don't believe me, try applying duct tape with one hand to a small pillow and wrap it tightly. Not only that, there is no way to line the duct tape pieces up using one hand. Remember this duct tape was wrapped so tightly that it was still holding the mandible in place after the body was skeletonized. That is super tight. If Caylee were alive when the duct tape was being put on, she would be struggling -also making it impossible for Casey to line the pieces of tape up and get them on tightly.

Yes, I have. And, I did it.

Guilty M1
 
Casey, on the 16th, apparantly told George (not sure if she told Cindy) that Caylee and her wouldn't be home that night, IMO, this shows premeditation... that is, if Caylee died after George was told they wouldn't be home, and I believe she did.
 
Yes, I agree, that is a possibility. If she were drugged first and then taped that would imply premeditation, IMO.

Chloroformed, giving Casey enough time to duct tape Caylee's face and add a heart sticker. I just wonder if she bagged her while she was still alive.... :furious:

Guilty, with premeditation. No doubt in my mind.
 
Chloroformed, giving Casey enough time to duct tape Caylee's face and add a heart sticker. I just wonder if she bagged her while she was still alive.... :furious:

Guilty, with premeditation. No doubt in my mind.


The ONLY place that chloroform was found was in the trunk of Casey's car. So are you suggesting that Casey murdered Caylee there?
 
The ONLY place that chloroform was found was in the trunk of Casey's car. So are you suggesting that Casey murdered Caylee there?

No, I am not. The chloroform would have been in the enclosed bag, and then saturated the enclosed trunk, so that they were able to find traces of it.

She could have killed her anywhere more open - back yard, garage etc, and the chloroform would have dissipated by the time anybody could check for it.
 
As far as the application of duct tape is concerned, Casey very well could have straddled Caylee, in effect sitting upon her, in such a way she could not move her arms. With both hands free Casey would be able to apply the tape. Casey may be petite but she could easily overpower a 2/3 year old. I can submit from my own childhood experience when a larger girl in my neighborhood pushed me to the ground, sat on me, and with some success attempted to shove pine needles in my mouth. The girl had at most 20lbs on me but it was enough to overpower me and I could not get up. Casey had at least 70lbs on her daughter, it would not have been difficult for her to incapacitate Caylee merely by using her weight.
 
Casey, on the 16th, apparantly told George (not sure if she told Cindy) that Caylee and her wouldn't be home that night, IMO, this shows premeditation... that is, if Caylee died after George was told they wouldn't be home, and I believe she did.

And, later that evening, KC was taped w/ TonE renting vids-- w/o Caylee.
 
The ONLY place that chloroform was found was in the trunk of Casey's car. So are you suggesting that Casey murdered Caylee there?

Chloroform dissipates in open air. It would remain in the closed trunk.

My guess is the murder took place in the open air.
 
How can the Prosecution PROVE that Casey chloroformed Caylee in open air and then duct taped her?
 
How can the Prosecution PROVE that Casey chloroformed Caylee in open air and then duct taped her?

They don't have to prove a cause of death.

However, they can prove that KC duct taped her. KC was the last and only one to have custody of Caylee, and she died in KC's care.

No one else had motive, method, and opportunity to kill Caylee. Just KC.
 
How can the Prosecution PROVE that Casey chloroformed Caylee in open air and then duct taped her?

To be honest, Princess Rose, I don't really care at this point in time how they prove it. Endless postulating is for the Defense - and Andrea Lyons' students - to do, looking for any angle that might work.

And I am NOT here to help the defense in ANY way. Let'em do their own work. :rolleyes:
 
How can the Prosecution PROVE that Casey chloroformed Caylee in open air and then duct taped her?

It may be impossible to PROVE the exact cause of death unless the killer confesses. However, I believe that if the SA can prove KC was the only reasonable suspect with means, motive and opportunity, which should make all of the details that drive us crazy either irrelevant or moot.

Cases have been won with less evidence and without a body. I think that the jury will take into consideration all of the possible scenarios and figure out from the evidence what is the most likely and reasonable.

Whether chloroform was used as a drug to put her to sleep (or whether its presence in the car trunk can be explained by cleaning chemicals), or whether it was xanax or baby benadryl, or she was asleep or awake - there may be a variety of ways Caylee's demise happened, whether by negligent accident or premeditation (either in an angry rage-filled instant, or in a slow and calculated manner).

Regardless of how it happened, what is most inescapable is that KC is far and away the only realistic suspect, and after it happened she went to elaborate and convoluted machinations to hide it and lie about it to any and all that asked, while simultaneously behaving as if she was having the time of her life, in a social whirl of parties, sex, tattoos and a crime spree involving stolen money.

When she was finally caught, she lied to LE and was furious with both them and her family for holding her accountable for her responsibility of keeping her child safe and for interrupting her current lifestyle. She created a fictional villain, and when that did not seem to bear fruit, she tried to implicate friends that had only been kind to her, or ones she had already victimized.

This charade may have ended sooner had her family not been so willing to corroborate her obvious mendacity and, for whatever selfish reasons, to try to help her avoid the consequences of her actions (a well-documented enabling behavior that goes back long before this incident).

I'm starting to think that the jury will find KC guilty of whatever they can within the parameters of their instructions and the admissable evidence, and whatever sentence is handed down, very little mercy will be shown in terms of length of appropriate sentence. Her ridiculouse stories, her behavior, her condescending or angry demeanor, her lack of affect regarding the fate of her child, the fact her parents are on record before this happened as not trusting her to safely care for her child, all point to someone who did something, either from negligence, rage, or some other emotion that cost a darling little toddler her life.

I think at some point, the finer details will be immaterial and moot from a legal point of view.
 
It may be impossible to PROVE the exact cause of death unless the killer confesses. However, I believe that if the SA can prove KC was the only reasonable suspect with means, motive and opportunity, which should make all of the details that drive us crazy either irrelevant or moot.

Cases have been won with less evidence and without a body. I think that the jury will take into consideration all of the possible scenarios and figure out from the evidence what is the most likely and reasonable.

Whether chloroform was used as a drug to put her to sleep (or whether its presence in the car trunk can be explained by cleaning chemicals), or whether it was xanax or baby benadryl, or she was asleep or awake - there may be a variety of ways Caylee's demise happened, whether by negligent accident or premeditation (either in an angry rage-filled instant, or in a slow and calculated manner).

Regardless of how it happened, what is most inescapable is that KC is far and away the only realistic suspect, and after it happened she went to elaborate and convoluted machinations to hide it and lie about it to any and all that asked, while simultaneously behaving as if she was having the time of her life, in a social whirl of parties, sex, tattoos and a crime spree involving stolen money.

When she was finally caught, she lied to LE and was furious with both them and her family for holding her accountable for her responsibility of keeping her child safe and for interrupting her current lifestyle. She created a fictional villain, and when that did not seem to bear fruit, she tried to implicate friends that had only been kind to her, or ones she had already victimized.

This charade may have ended sooner had her family not been so willing to corroborate her obvious mendacity and, for whatever selfish reasons, to try to help her avoid the consequences of her actions (a well-documented enabling behavior that goes back long before this incident).

I'm starting to think that the jury will find KC guilty of whatever they can within the parameters of their instructions and the admissable evidence, and whatever sentence is handed down, very little mercy will be shown in terms of length of appropriate sentence. Her ridiculouse stories, her behavior, her condescending or angry demeanor, her lack of affect regarding the fate of her child, the fact her parents are on record before this happened as not trusting her to safely care for her child, all point to someone who did something, either from negligence, rage, or some other emotion that cost a darling little toddler her life.

I think at some point, the finer details will be immaterial and moot from a legal point of view.
I agree with you. When it's all laid out by the SA and Dr. G has her say,I think the jury will go with the highest charge.
If the defense dares to throw anyone else under the bus with a SODDI defense ,I think this will anger and harden the jury. If they try to claim an accident I think the jury will be insulted .All they can reasonably do is try to undermine the science. There's just too much of it and the jury may pity the defense at that point.
KC is guilty and I believe premeditated.
We need a doc dump .
 
I'm starting to think that the jury will find KC guilty of whatever they can within the parameters of their instructions and the admissable evidence, and whatever sentence is handed down, very little mercy will be shown in terms of length of appropriate sentence. Her ridiculouse stories, her behavior, her condescending or angry demeanor, her lack of affect regarding the fate of her child, the fact her parents are on record before this happened as not trusting her to safely care for her child, all point to someone who did something, either from negligence, rage, or some other emotion that cost a darling little toddler her life.

I think at some point, the finer details will be immaterial and moot from a legal point of view.



Completely agree. This babe is guilty... of precisely what, when where and how, we will never know, unless she says. Even then, we probably won't be able to believe her given her history as a determined liar. Her baby is dead, not burried, mourned and honored, but thrown away in garbage bags, not even in the trash, but in a muck filled swamp, left to rot, apparently with the hope that she would never be found to be given the respect of a proper burial. Whatever happened, KC is responsible for this crime, whatever exactly it is, AND for the awful ensuing mess. Millions of dollars that could be better spent must be spent on her because she won't fess up. Her poor friends and family are having their lives ravaged while she denies her culpability. The police have been maligned for doing their job, as has become usual in our crazy, mixed up society. Innocent people have been disparaged and efforts have been made to implicate them when their only mistake was befriending the babe, or searching for her daughter when she wouldn't give a clue and for caring more about her baby than she did.

While there's a remote possibility, the stars will line up all wrong and somehow this babe will some day get out to walk among us again on some legal technicality, I hope not and sincerely doubt it will happen. Florida is not California. When KC's jury closes the door to the jury room, they will be sitting on top of a mountain of evidence, and they will be the ones charged on of behalf of society to sort out this whole disaster, finally at long last. When that time comes, after all is said and done, after all the witnesses and lawyering, I believe this jury will be left with KC, her sorry self, what she did that we do know about, what she didn't do, when she did or didn't do it, what she said and didn't say, juxtaposed against poor little Caylee, dead, trippled bagged and dumped. At that point, the jury won't come back into court quoting chapter and verse from legal books, spouting legalese. I continue to believe that, based on what KC, herself has and has not done, they'll come back with only one word, not even two.
 
I agree with you. When it's all laid out by the SA and Dr. G has her say,I think the jury will go with the highest charge.
If the defense dares to throw anyone else under the bus with a SODDI defense ,I think this will anger and harden the jury. If they try to claim an accident I think the jury will be insulted .All they can reasonably do is try to undermine the science. There's just too much of it and the jury may pity the defense at that point.
KC is guilty and I believe premeditated.
We need a doc dump .

I think the fact that AL is on record and has written material on the fact that she is not fond of the SODDI defense will be critical (and helpful). Trying to undermine the science might also anger and harden the jury if it's not handled well.

And you are so right - we TOTALLY need a doc dump! I know a lot of my family and friends would like the attitude adjustment it would give me!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
188
Guests online
2,016
Total visitors
2,204

Forum statistics

Threads
589,952
Messages
17,928,140
Members
228,015
Latest member
Amberraff
Back
Top