Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #34

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Liadan said:
...

I think it would be interesting to note if GBC spoke with these people he was in debt to particularaly with the gentleman's agreements after her death explaining that he would be paying up as soon as he got the insurance money.
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Agree LIADAN. This would indeed be interesting to follow up on to discover what he may have said to these people and how he may have explained it etc.
My opinion only, not fact.
 
Aunty said:
Can someone tell me where in this photo Allison's body was found?
Hopefully Manis photo link worked. Thanks Mani, these photos are amazing.
Re the charge of "interfering with a corpse" the police may have identified foot impressions in the mud around Allison's body, if in fact she was found in or around the mud in this photo.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=24528&d=1342322753
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=24528&d=1342322753
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thanks Aunty - if you go back to where you took the photos from, there should be a link on that same page that shows an msm photo of where body was.
Then you can see for yourself. She was in the mud, underneath the large concrete capping piece that we all stood on to take photos.

There were some big discussions on here earlier on about where body was. When we went to the bridge, we thought she was higher up the bank above the capping piece but she wasn't. Luckily Indromum could pull up photos from msm and we worked it out from there. IMO

Also, FYI I have uploaded the photos to the photo section that was created just for photos - you might find it easier to have a look there.

Cheers
 
My understanding of hairbanding is that it a result of decomposition, very unlikely unless Allison's remains were in the car some time after her death.
 
I have a niggle: Why did GBC ring triple O as opposed to ringing the local police station? The first thing he would have been asked, "Is this an emergency?". If he had said, "no" and that his wife wasn't there when he woke up, surely he would have been told to report it to his local police station. I thought that was the procedure.

Because GBC rang 000, the police were obliged to respond immediately. Uniform QPS were there within 30mins. This, IMO, will turn out to be his downfall.
 
Fuskier said:
Agree LIADAN. This would indeed be interesting to follow up on to discover what he may have said to these people and how he may have explained it etc.
My opinion only, not fact.
Click to expand...


Could explain some of the 300+ witness statements?
 
Liadan said:
Wow - great stuff coming through lately. Thanks Summer Breeze and welcome littlethings.

I think definitely the fact the police acted sooooooooo quickly made the case!! But I think after the 4 stories he got about 'his wife's' movements that evening and in the morning would have been suspect to anyone and the scratches - do they have a cat? because I can't see falling over or tripping, and shaving injuries from an old razor satifsying the police's keen eye for details and suspect scenarios.

I also think the Morcombe case weighed heavily on the police's mind when they approached this scenario- they did not want to have anothercold case without a body. The body, and the murder scene are the TWO most important parts of an investigation. The police were determined to find ABC.

As far as the insurance money goes - my thoughts on this I have posted before. I dont think GBC googled 'no body, can I get insurance money anyway' so perhaps he didn't realise that Allisons body had to be found b4 he got the payout. But a sociapath's mind operates to buy time for themselves to think how to create the next lie. (Case in point the bus stop car crash to delay the police questioning) If he stuck Allison out at the creek she was out of the way and he had time to work out his next moves.

He would arrange it so he could get the money he put his poor acting skills to work, playing out that he was deranged from devastation that he couldn't find his 'angel'. All the while he would be thinking of ways to get that money. But time would still allow him to appease his creditors. He could say to the banks and the people involved in his gentlemans agreements that he was a blithering mess from his wife's dissappearance and would be able to pay back as soon as he got the insurance money. No bank or genuine lender is going to knock back that excuse if they know their cash is coming. So he was virtually off the hook with his debts.

I think it would be interesting to note if GBC spoke with these people he was in debt to particularaly with the gentleman's agreements after her death explaining that he would be paying up as soon as he got the insurance money.
Click to expand...

Hi Liadan, You are spot on with your analyses of GBC behaviour. When the police arrived he would have been a wreck because he already knew that Allison was dead and had been so for many hours. I'm sure he spent those hours thinking up things to say but as we all know reality and a few well placed questions can make it all fall apart very quickly. I believe he had a very long night,(hence the early phone call to police,) Having seen his acting skills in that interview I can only imagine how bad a job he would have done in explaining things to the police that morning.
I agree with you too in that no matter what he was saying or doing in the time after Allisons disappearance he would have only had one thought on his mind and that would have been himself, his own predicament, his own welfare. Nobody else and nothing else matters to people with this type of nature. Only my opinion.
Cheers.:banghead:
 
summer_breeze said:
Why purposely put Allison's body in a creek, body of water, when there is the distinct possibility the body would not be found? This seems to be in direct conflict with the speculation of motive with regard to the insurance money, needed in a hurry.

IF Allison was in the water at any point, I think it was unplanned and happened by virtue of nature herself! (Flood waters, etc.) My opinion.
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Summer_breeze, it's a good point, and I explain it to myself that the perp did not actually put the body in water fully. My version is that he tried to hid the body near water and near the foot path to the creek, so that it could be discovered 'accidentally' by those who use that path frequently (like the scouts). In the meantime he knew, that the camp would be unoccupied for a while, but not for too long. For that time the body could have decomposed enough but would still be easily identifiable via clothes. You see, GBC did not really know when Allison went for a walk but he could confidently say what clothes she was on. The rains spoiled the plan by shifting the body into the creek and then further down the bridge. If you now go back in time and check his reaction to the news, you will see that he was rather scared and confused than devastated. All in my opinion.
 
Mountain Misst said:
I have a niggle: Why did GBC ring triple O as opposed to ringing the local police station? The first thing he would have been asked, "Is this an emergency?". If he had said, "no" and that his wife wasn't there when he woke up, surely he would have been told to report it to his local police station. I thought that was the procedure.

Because GBC rang 000, the police were obliged to respond immediately. Uniform QPS were there within 30mins. This, IMO, will turn out to be his downfall.
Click to expand...
Yes! 100% correct!
 
alioop said:
The trailer was hooked up to the prado. If NBC was just there to meet QPS then why the trailer. It looked empty to me. I do have a blurry photo of the trailer and prado but have no idea how to attach it and its not an exciting photo.

I had a friend with me and I have just asked her what she saw NBC carrying as she was a little more "bolder" than I with the sleuthing. I quote what she emailed to me.

"I think it was a cardboard box. I didnt see him speaking to police. but i did see the plain clothes detectives standing outside with 2 large brown paper bags at their feet.
I saw a woman walking back from the white pajero. presumably she had put something in there and was walking back to the house. she was a little chubby, i dont know what mumma bwana looks like"
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Ok...I thought the house had already been completely emptied...a few weeks back and without police presence? Seems odd if this were the case the police would now show up to supervise etc. I don't believe QPS would be there pursuing investigation if NBC were not part of their on going investigation. That would not happen given he's GBC father.
 
From a courier mail article early on - sorry on iPad and not sure how to post this quote and the source at same time
"He said Mr Baden-Clay was a "proud'' man who was thinking of quitting as president of the Kenmore Chamber of Commerce - even recently trading in his beloved Lexus, which he bought in 2009 for $77,000."
 
Liadan said:
Wow - great stuff coming through lately. Thanks Summer Breeze and welcome littlethings.

I think definitely the fact the police acted sooooooooo quickly made the case!! But I think after the 4 stories he got about 'his wife's' movements that evening and in the morning would have been suspect to anyone and the scratches - do they have a cat? because I can't see falling over or tripping, and shaving injuries from an old razor satifsying the police's keen eye for details and suspect scenarios.

I also think the Morcombe case weighed heavily on the police's mind when they approached this scenario- they did not want to have anothercold case without a body. The body, and the murder scene are the TWO most important parts of an investigation. The police were determined to find ABC.

As far as the insurance money goes - my thoughts on this I have posted before. I dont think GBC googled 'no body, can I get insurance money anyway' so perhaps he didn't realise that Allisons body had to be found b4 he got the payout. But a sociapath's mind operates to buy time for themselves to think how to create the next lie. (Case in point the bus stop car crash to delay the police questioning) If he stuck Allison out at the creek she was out of the way and he had time to work out his next moves.

He would arrange it so he could get the money he put his poor acting skills to work, playing out that he was deranged from devastation that he couldn't find his 'angel'. All the while he would be thinking of ways to get that money. But time would still allow him to appease his creditors. He could say to the banks and the people involved in his gentlemans agreements that he was a blithering mess from his wife's dissappearance and would be able to pay back as soon as he got the insurance money. No bank or genuine lender is going to knock back that excuse if they know their cash is coming. So he was virtually off the hook with his debts.

I think it would be interesting to note if GBC spoke with these people he was in debt to particularaly with the gentleman's agreements after her death explaining that he would be paying up as soon as he got the insurance money.
Click to expand...

Liadan, I think you are spot on with all of this. Excellent post.
 
alioop said:
I have always thought that the girls would have been talking to their friends and perhaps teachers quite freely that day about mummy not being at home when they woke up and what they knew or heard. I think some of the 300 affidavits would be about what the girls stated to others. All very good evidence as it was immediately after Allison went missing. The police may not have been able to interview the girls directly at that time but I don't think that is going to matter too much at the end of the day.
Click to expand...

Isn't a bit weird to send the girls off to school when their mother is missing ?
I know my children would have been beside themselves with worry even at that young age
 
Maigret said:
Isn't a bit weird to send the girls off to school when their mother is missing ?
I know my children would have been beside themselves with worry even at that young age
Click to expand...

"business as usual" :(
 
I wouldn't be surprised if one of GBC's plans was to cast suspicion upon Toni McHugh as the killer.
 
GonnaGetYa said:
Okay, figured I'd give us something to do....

If I was Inspector Ainsworth I'd be dividing my team up into groups of two-three and giving them a 'theory' to prove re what happened that night, then do a big
'show-n-tell' where the other detectives get to pick their theory apart.

So.... here's my theory of what happened.

Allison and GBC have a volatile relationship and DV is a regular part of the household. As previously stated by a websleuth member, GBC depises Allison for seeing him for who he really is. BUT he DOESN'T want out of the marriage - it suits him to be a married man.

Things however are heating up for GBC.... the business is about to go under - he owes a whole lot more than what we've heard about. People he's lent money from are starting to put some pressure on. TM is also putting the pressure on and he gives her a commitment re July 1. He has no intention of keeping it, just silencing her for the time being. His past (all in my theory of course!) is littered with shady deals skirting the edges of legality. Possibly he's tipped over into fraud. His other mistresses are also placing some pressure particularly one who threatens to spill the beans to both Allison and TM. He's feeling boxed in. I would suggest he has trouble seeing a way out of this mess he finds himself in.

He brainstorms some theories.... What would happen if??? The idea of getting his hands on Allison's insurance money passes his mind... he fantasises about how he would do it. He makes some queries about the insurance, but consciously discounts the idea.

The night before that fateful night he and Allison have a big fight. Possibly police are called (thus why they open a missing person investigation so quickly). Allison has found out the affair with TM is ongoing and she has had enough. She is more vocal in standing up for herself than ever before. Now she is no longer trying to save the marriage - and he senses it.

The night of the 19th GBC has a headache after arguing with TM. Allison comes home from the hairdresser, collecting the girls from Nigelaine on the way. She prepares the girl's lunches and clothes for the next day and puts them to bed. It's about 8:30pm. The girl's have gone to bed after a certain show they were watching on tv has finished (thus why QPS want scheduling info). A fight starts. ABC runs into the yard to get away from him... she wants some space, he follows - poor little dog next door complains loudly. Possibly GBC drags Allison back into the house by the hair.

She has really had enough. She tells him that she's sick of all this. He can get out. She gives him till the end of the weekend to go. If he doesn't she'll start telling everyone what he's REALLY like - "what will Mummy think of him then?" she asks.

He disappears into their bedroom, she decides to calm down by having a warm bath. Without putting much thought into it, he decides his ONLY option is to 'get rid of her'. He goes into the bathroom and strangles her. She puts up a fight, chipping her tooth and submerging several times in the struggle. It's still early in the evening... around 10pm possibly. He moves her to the bedroom in case the girls wake and go to the bathroom, and he dresses her. He wraps her head in a plastic shopping bag as there is a bit of blood and he doesn't want it leaking.

At some point he rings Daddy. Whether it's here or further on I'm undecided. He tells his father that there was an argument, Allison was being unreasonable and pushing him around - he pushed her back, she hit her head and died. Daddy is led to believe it's been a horrible accident but GBC convinces his father that it would be better for the girls if the world believed it was a random stranger than their father who did the deed. NBC agrees and they decide to tell EBC (and possibly Olivia) that ABC has 'taken off' in a depressed state and GBC is frantic about her. EBC says that they can't possibly go off to look for ABC leaving the girls alone in the house so she insists on going over to sit in the house. Tricky for GBC because he now needs to get the body out of the house by himself. He wraps Allison in a blanket and bundles her into the back of her car. A passerby notices all four doors open.

He quickly dumps her body somewhere... anywhere relatively secluded (he knows they'll come back and move it) and heads to a local roundabout to collect EBC and take her to the house. He has convinced his parents it wouldn't be good for their car to be seen at his place and to keep it hidden in the carpark or behind the bus shelter. He goes the long way around because it would be natural instinct for him to stay away from the road where he's just dumped Allison's body.

EBC sits at the house. Possibly one of the girls wakes to go to the toilet and tells the nice policeman the next morning about nanny being over the night before. GBC collects NBC who collects the other BC car as they tell EBC they will go in different directions to look for Allison. Instead they head to where GBC has left her. NBC decides on where they will take her and together they work on a story. She was depressed, she took off in her car.... maybe she suicided or was attacked by a random person. Whichever, they plan to leave her car. Their plan comes unstuck when they see the trail of blood that has dripped down from the plastic. They are going to have to take the car home and wash it.

They return to the house with the excuse that they are too tired to search anymore. GBC perhaps tells EBC that he's had a text from Allison and that she's staying with a friend overnight. He drops EBC and NBC back at the roundabout then heads home to clean up. He suddenly remembers something and calls NBC. He and NBC have buried the blanket somewhere far away from where they've left Allison and the BC house.

He cleans the car, and checks to make sure there aren't any blood stains etc at home. He heads to bed.

In the morning he sends the two texts to Allison, which I believe to be one of his biggest mistakes. He wants to 'show' police her phone (and his) have the 'find my phone app' (because he's cleverly left his phone at home the evening before (he's used to tricking Allison with the Iphone app after all). He has left her phone somewhere away from her body and the blanket. Instead of calling around her friends and parents, instead of calling her instead of texting, instead of putting the girls in the car to go and find her.... he rings police to report her missing. Max Sica made a big mistake in his 000 call, and so did GBC I believe. GBC called too early.

Because this all unfolded so quickly he googles self incrimination and reads about maintaining silence. He calls NBC and tells him it's best if all of them (Olivia included if she was in the Nigelaine house that night) make no comment to police. They know it will be up to police to prove involvement, much easier if they aren't given a statement to disprove first.

When police arrive he spins a yarn of depression. He says he went to bed and didn't know when she went missing. He explains the marks away. Police ask if she was getting treatment for the depression -he can't remember her therapist but googles the name for the police. Police are suspicious (face scratches, previous DV, comment by child, lack of 'looking' before calling them) and open a missing person investigation.

GBC thought he was going to get away with it. He didn't realise a facetime call was traceable. He didn't realise putting the phone on the charger was traceable. Perhaps he told TM something.... but she spills anything she knows to police. Perhaps it's not about the murder but possibly fraud issues.

What really 'cooks his goose' though is Olivia confessing to police that he had gone looking for Allison the night before. She is the weak link in the family that didn't keep quiet. But she didn't think it would really matter because she truly believed her brother's innocence.... after all her father was with him searching... wasn't he??? The bail hearing shattered Olivia's existence - it's just starting to dawn on her what really happened. EBC fully believes the yarn her husband and son have fed her. As GBC feel the police closing in, he makes other plans. It wasn't about the insurance, but if he can get the insurance money he can flee the country and leave everything and everyone behind. He organises fake documents and starts preparing the groundwork. Maybe this is what TM told the police - maybe he was taking her with him. But she fully believes, as does his mother and sister, that he is innocent.

GBC is devastated when charged. He realises that TM and Olivia have 'dropped him in it'. He desperately tries all legal avenues for new ideas. He can't talk to Mummy or Daddy. He is a trapped lion, just like the ones his father used to hunt in Rhodesia.
Click to expand...



Oh my goodness. That is brilliant. Well done. Xxxxx
 
Maigret said:
Isn't a bit weird to send the girls off to school when their mother is missing ?
I know my children would have been beside themselves with worry even at that young age
Click to expand...

Perhaps the B-C adults needed to have a 'family confab' (discussion)?

In hindsight they are probably thinking it would have been best to keep the girls home.

IMO
 
Maigret said:
Isn't a bit weird to send the girls off to school when their mother is missing ?
I know my children would have been beside themselves with worry even at that young age
Click to expand...

If GBC did not know what had happened to Allison, I think it would have been a good idea to send them to school as it was something to occupy them whilst he and the police tried to find her. It is what I think I would do in a similar situation.
But what I do think weird is that he would send them to school if he knew what happened to her as they would of course talk to their friends and perhaps implicate him. I think he was damned if he did send them to school and damned if he didn't.
 
YoureNicked said:
I wouldn't be surprised if one of GBC's plans was to cast suspicion upon Toni McHugh as the killer.
Click to expand...

I never thought of that theory, I think he was really intending to move in with his mistress.
 
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