JB/wine cellar

Where was JB's body when FW opened the wine cellar door?

  • Right there but he didn't see it

    Votes: 22 31.0%
  • Somewhere else and was moved later

    Votes: 14 19.7%
  • In the same room but in a different spot,moved later

    Votes: 22 31.0%
  • He didn't open the door or he is lying about what he saw

    Votes: 13 18.3%

  • Total voters
    71
I never trusted Arndt so I wonder whether she told the truth in the ABC interview re "knowing" instantly who the killer was,because if true then it makes sense.She had FW guarding the crime scene so that JR doesn't get near it again.But this means that this second big mistake she made is even more stupid and biased than it seemed.Yes I know she didn't have back-up but she could have kept them ALL together until the other officers arrive!

Given that she was already (apparently - told this but not seen the evidence) advised by the FBI that they should 'look for a body', you wouldn't think she would send the parent and friend(s) to search the house would you? Then, to accuse the father who found her of not only being her murderer but also of sexually abusing her, all based on a 'look' they exchanged over the body of his dead daughter!! Quite ridiculous!!

What father who had just found the apparently murdered (strangled) body of his child would not have a murderous look in his eyes? Why she would think it was directed at her I have no idea. The whole nonsense of checking her gun, in case of what - in case he went completely crazy and killed them all?? Wouldn't you just say, "John, we'll get whoever did this"? Just shows how insensitive she was to their pain and suffering.
 
One thing I recall from Arndt's testimony was that after JB had been brought up she had said to FW not to let anyone near that basement. But instead, either FW went back down himself or others did. (not sure which) maybe someone here remembers.
"Arndt ordered Ramsey to put the body down on the floor near the front door and told Fleet White to guard the basement door. Instead, White ran back down into the little cellar room, picked up the black tape, and stared at it."
Page 28, ST
 
I never trusted Arndt so I wonder whether she told the truth in the ABC interview re "knowing" instantly who the killer was,because if true then it makes sense.She had FW guarding the crime scene so that JR doesn't get near it again.But this means that this second big mistake she made is even more stupid and biased than it seemed.Yes I know she didn't have back-up but she could have kept them ALL together until the other officers arrive!

I have to say I agree about Arndt. She did recognize what she saw as suspicious behavior on the part of JR, but I feel she in large part spins things to minimize the impact of her tragic breach of proper police protocol in a crime of this nature (even though it was thought to be a kidnapping at first- still a capital crime). MUCH of the failure to solve this crime can be laid at her feet and also Officer French.
She had a gun. She could have kept everyone in one room, where she could have kept an eye on them until backup arrived. Had she done that in the first place, realizing she was losing control of the crime scene with so many unauthorized people milling around, even though French couldn't figure out how to open a simply latched door, JB would have remained unfound and the trappings of the crime itself- the tape and garrote- would be uncontaminated by anyone who claimed to not have seen her after she went to bed.
Then, when it looked like she was being made a scapegoat by her own department, she developed "amnesia", which I believe she still "suffers" from to this day (in anticipation of writing her own book, which she had said she would do, but as yet has not.)
 
yep the perp knew how to unlatch the door, find the light switch because I cant believe she was strangled in the dark, turned the light off and relatched the door.

I would like to hear IDI theory on this. There is no smokin gun in this case but enough little things that add up to RDI.
 
yep the perp knew how to unlatch the door, find the light switch because I cant believe she was strangled in the dark, turned the light off and relatched the door.

I would like to hear IDI theory on this. There is no smokin gun in this case but enough little things that add up to RDI.

Ok, well:

1. the IDI was not in the dark (the lights in the basement were apparently on) so all he/she needed to do was look up to unlatch the door. (IDI smarter than BPD!)

2. JBR was not strangled in the wine cellar as far as anyone knows. One theory (due to the urine stain on the floor) that it was in the hallway of the adjoining room.

3. IDI may have been familiar with the house, or even if not, had all afternoon to look around at leisure while the R's were out.
 
"Arndt ordered Ramsey to put the body down on the floor near the front door and told Fleet White to guard the basement door. Instead, White ran back down into the little cellar room, picked up the black tape, and stared at it."
Page 28, ST

So he says.Why aren't his fingerprints on it then?Or maybe they are and that's his "explanation".Oh I touched the suitcase,the wine cellar door oh and the tape!
 
Maybe he recognized the black tape? maybe PR gave them a painting or something with tape on it. maybe this was his AHA moment. Maybe I have been reading this forum too long but I think FW should be cleared as a suspect.
 
He was cleared.Twice.One because Hunter was afraid of his big mouth and the second time because he pushed Lacy,hey if Ramseys got a letter I want one too.
Even if I totally disagree with what ML did I don't think FW got the point re the exoneration letter to the Ramsey's.
 
So he says.Why aren't his fingerprints on it then?Or maybe they are and that's his "explanation".Oh I touched the suitcase,the wine cellar door oh and the tape!

He touched the broken glass shards, too. But let's be fair- the same can be said of JR. He touched the window handle (now THAT was a good place to test for prints and DNA) as well as the tape and his daughter's body.
 
He touched the broken glass shards, too. But let's be fair- the same can be said of JR. He touched the window handle (now THAT was a good place to test for prints and DNA) as well as the tape and his daughter's body.

Yes but FW touched the tape (and God knows what else he did) after the body was found and knowing that this was a crime scene now.He was sent there to guard the door because of this reason,so that NO ONE messes with the crime scene.And he does EXACTLY that.

JR if innocent did it in a moment of shock,without thinking of the consequences,he just found the body of his daughter.Don't think his thoughts at the moment were,this is a crime scene,the body is a crime scene,let's be careful.
 
Yes but FW touched the tape (and God knows what else he did) after the body was found and knowing that this was a crime scene now.He was sent there to guard the door because of this reason,so that NO ONE messes with the crime scene.And he does EXACTLY that.

JR if innocent did it in a moment of shock,without thinking of the consequences,he just found the body of his daughter.Don't think his thoughts at the moment were,this is a crime scene,the body is a crime scene,let's be careful.

Point taken. Of course, there are those who feel he may have done these things to provide an explanation for his prints being on them, whereas FW would probably NOT want to have his prints linked to them. And Det. Arndt did tell them not to touch anything when she first sent them looking. Boy, if there was ever a turning point....
 
Right. It was his biggest regret, he said later. He knew that not only did it allow irrevocable contamination of the crime scene, but he was aware that when children are reported missing and later found dead in the family home, that a family member is usually responsible.

As far as the mystery of why FW didn't see her and JR rushed right up to her (allegedly before the light was even switched on)- here's how I see it.
FW didn't know where the light switch was because it was in an odd place down low on the wall just outside the room. If he looked in a room that dark (remember- no window) he may NOT have seen her. The room was "L" shaped slightly and to see the body, you'd have to bend IN and look to the left or step into the room. Tests were done in the basement to see if there was enough light coming from the area just outside the wineceller to see inside the dark room. There was enough light that he should have seen her, especially covered with a white blanket- the wineceller wasn't THAT big. But still, unless he had his head bent INTO the room, he may not have seen her.

I don't think she was moved from another place. Only one livor pattern, and too risky once other people were in the house. BUT I do think that she may have been deeper in the room and JR went during his 2 hour disappearance where Arndt said she "thought" he went to get his mail (not true- the mail came into a slot in the front door- not a 2 hour job) and moved her body closer to the door. If you look at the pics of that room, JB's body where it was found was pretty close to the door. Even in the dark, she'd have been seen.
So to answer the last part about why JR saw her immediately- well- he knew where she was.
Think about it- JR supposedly was kidnapped from her own bedroom. When Arndt told JR to take another look around-, wouldn't you have rushed right up to her room first? Arndt said to see is anything of note was missing- a familiar doll or toy or some clothing. These things wouldn't be kept in the basement, and certainly not in the wineceller. Another suspicious thing is that the wineceller was still latched with the small wood latch (that nobody knew about unless they were familiar with that wineceller). The door could not be locked from the inside, so it's not like JB would have locked herself in there (or anyone else). The fact that JR went RIGHT to that room makes me believe he knew right where she was. And by this time, it was 1 PM- about 12 hours after her death. She already had an odor of decomposition. She NEEDED to be found. Waiting for cadaver dogs was not something that the Rs wanted to have happen.

Yupyupyup.
 
Ok, well:

1. the IDI was not in the dark (the lights in the basement were apparently on) so all he/she needed to do was look up to unlatch the door. (IDI smarter than BPD!)

2. JBR was not strangled in the wine cellar as far as anyone knows. One theory (due to the urine stain on the floor) that it was in the hallway of the adjoining room.

3. IDI may have been familiar with the house, or even if not, had all afternoon to look around at leisure while the R's were out.


And the urine stain could just as easily be the result of the corpse being set on the floor while the killer opened the door to the wine celler.
 
And the urine stain could just as easily be the result of the corpse being set on the floor while the killer opened the door to the wine celler.

In which case she had already been killed elsewhere, hence, no light required in the cellar.
 
In which case she had already been killed elsewhere, hence, no light required in the cellar.
Given the layout of the house, it seems that lights would have to be turned on to maneuver around the basement. I don't see where lights on in the basement proves or disproves she was killed down there.
 
Here's the entire conversation, begun by RTC. Another circular argument I see by the RDIs on this forum. Sheese!!

Originally Posted by RTC View Post
yep the perp knew how to unlatch the door, find the light switch because I cant believe she was strangled in the dark, turned the light off and relatched the door.

I would like to hear IDI theory on this. There is no smokin gun in this case but enough little things that add up to RDI.


MurriFlower:Ok, well:

1. the IDI was not in the dark (the lights in the basement were apparently on) so all he/she needed to do was look up to unlatch the door. (IDI smarter than BPD!)

2. JBR was not strangled in the wine cellar as far as anyone knows. One theory (due to the urine stain on the floor) that it was in the hallway of the adjoining room.

3. IDI may have been familiar with the house, or even if not, had all afternoon to look around at leisure while the R's were out.

my-tee-mouse: And the urine stain could just as easily be the result of the corpse being set on the floor while the killer opened the door to the wine celler.

MurriFlower: In which case she had already been killed elsewhere, hence, no light required in the cellar.
Given the layout of the house, it seems that lights would have to be turned on to maneuver around the basement. I don't see where lights on in the basement proves or disproves she was killed down there.
 
I don't think whoever put her in the wineceller was worried about the lights in that room- it had no window and so a light would not be seen from outside. BUT there were windows in other basement rooms as well as the rest of the house, and no curtains on at least the kitchen window. Good reason to need to keep the lights OFF and walk around with that flashlight. As has been reported, the sunporch (which had lots of windows) had a light that was NEVER off- except for that night.
 
I'd like to ask RDI why they think the R's bothered to clean the batteries?It doesn't make sense.IF it was theirs then it would have been normal for their prints to be on it.On the other hand why even leave it there if it's incriminating?Full of dirt?
IMO it wasn't their flashlight.And the lack of prints on the batteries is one + point that favors IDI IMO.
 
I'd like to ask RDI why they think the R's bothered to clean the batteries?It doesn't make sense.IF it was theirs then it would have been normal for their prints to be on it.On the other hand why even leave it there if it's incriminating?Full of dirt?
IMO it wasn't their flashlight.And the lack of prints on the batteries is one + point that favors IDI IMO.

Madeleine, I also don't understand why they would have cleaned the batteries of fingerprints, but I also believe if this flashlight had not belonged to the Ramseys, they would have shouted it from the roof tops. Everthing that I have read states that although they never actually said it was theirs, they also never said it couldn't be. This leads me to believe that it was another object that they had to distance themselves from even though it was identical to one they owned. It goes along with Patsy denying she put the pineapple bowl out for JB even though her prints were on it.
 

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