Possibly related cases (GB4, Manorville, Bittrolff victims, & others)

BKS said:

Why do you think LISK is a Sadist and not a Mission Killer?

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The key for me thinking he is a sadist, is the phone calls. We don't know exactly what he said.. However, from one of the tv specials, the sister said he told her all the horrible things he did to her sister, before he killed her. Not only did he torcher the victim, but he mentally torchered and put himself in control of her family.

I don't think he is on a delusional mission, to rid the world of prostitutes. He knows exactly what he is doing. He plans it all out.. from prepaid phones, the secondary torcher sites(imo), makes sure to have the bodies completely clean with little evidence to show.

I believe he told the sister, he was going to be able to watch her sister rot. I don't think he wanted the bodies found, hell if it wasn't for the fluke SG incident, who knows how many more bodies would be there now.

As oppose to the AC killer, clearly on a mission. Wanted the bodies found, wanted the world to see his work. Even after they had found bodies, he goes back to the same spot to dump them again. Took the time to pose the bodies, etc.. He was showing the world his work. LISK not so much, his graveyard was found on accident.

I touched on this in my post, before this current one. I believe he is a sadist, if what he told the sister is true. We don't know exactly, but according to her, he did horrible things to her, and implied he had done it over some time. Of course the LE are keeping quiet, doing their best to keep this case from going anywhere.

Peter Brendt said:

The head of the C task force said in the beginning of the LISK case, AC and LISK would be connected. Some weeks later, after they had time to look at details, they all went back and said, those cases were unconnected. Which is usual in fresh SK cases, at first a lot of assumption comes up before someone can run a tighter ship on it, then things go more orderly and LE gets time to look at the details that give SKs away instead of fighting the media all the time.

I profiled LISK black because of his victimology. Four white females who have visually not much in common with each other, indicates either hidden similarities (in the Alcala-case for example, it was face symmetry) or simply, that the important part for the killer is not sexual attraction per se, but what the victims are/symbolize.
So, this leaves me either with a psychopath/narcissist of the sadistic variety (in case there is a hidden similarity, I missed AND LE either kept secret, that the remains showed signs of torture, or as simple, missed such a detail due to decomposition) or a mission-driven killer.
To determine ethnicity on a phone is based on speech patterns. Means, it's the choice of words, that makes the difference. Simplified, if you have someone on the phone who calls you all the time "bro", you assume, he is African-American. If you have someone on the phone, who doesn't use such keywords, you assume, he is Caucasian. But educated persons of all ethnicities sound pretty much alike (unless they got their education in a non-english-speaking country, like I did). So, who of us would for example Morgan Freeman's ethnicity if the man would call us and not say his name? Or Bill Cosby? President Obama delivers examples for that mechanism all the time, his speech patterns obviously depend on to whom he is talking. Of course, the whole mechanism would also work vice versa.

Peter Brendt

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BKS said:

Some of the similarities between AC4 & GB4

1. Victims were strangled
2. Murder weapon was not found at crime scene.
3. All victims murdered at another location and then moved to dump site.
4. All victims dumped outdoors along Atlantic coastal region
5. All victims women ages 20-40 (approx.)
7. Victims dumped in clusters
8. Victims had addiction and money issues
9. SK left little evidence at the dump site
10. All victims were prostitutes
11. SK did not try to hide the identity of the victims
12. Killer took trophy items
13. Killer was familiar with both areas

When looking at the 5 windows of serial killing and what we know about both cases, they are similiar in three ways for sure.
Type of Abduction
Type of Kill
Disposal of bodies
My instincts tell me the victims were also stalked and are part of an ongoing fantasy of a Mission Killer.

Also, here is a link that tells more about the GB4 victims.
http://www.newsday.com/long-island/faces-of-the-gilgo-beach-victims-1.2633910

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I agree, obviously, with the mission driven profile. However, I don't agree with your similarities list. But since it's a repost, I just skip it here and look only at the last part "similar for sure"

Type of abduction?
The AC-victims weren't caught by Johns nor short after John visits. Two of them were even kind of off-duty. This would have made it possible to lure them away with a ruse or an offer for drugs. This is consistent with your stalker theory in AC btw. because it would mean, he knew, which drug for which girl.
Maureen B-B. was during her last phone call in the late night at the Port Authority's bus terminal. At this time of the night rather remote with a lot of dark corners, wouldn't you say?
As it looks the other GB were all on their way back from Johns (otherwise, if the police would have figured their last Johns and found, it was always the same, we would have seen an arrest already). But coming back means wanting to go home or to the hotel, simply going somewhere. That makes a blitz-attack much more promising than the attempt to lure a tired girl who is just hurrying by on the way to "somewhere home".
So, no, I can't see "the same type of abduction" beyond the point they were abductions.

Type of kill
Well, that is true. Every other guy who goes for prostitutes strangles them. From Ridgway to Hanson, to Eckert. It's such a thing like "most motorists drive cars". It's true, but no distinguishing characteristics, not even speaking about unique. And since AC alone developed over smothering via manual strangulation to using some ligature, it's very hard to speak here of the same type of kill as a distinguishing and therefore connecting aspect.

Disposal of bodies
AC staged in a ditch right behind a red light strip.
LISK wrapped and parked them at a remote beach.
AC was demonstrating
LISK was revisiting
How is that similar? That is as different as it gets unless you start to dismember or burn bodies.

So no, I'm still not convinced.

Peter

BKS said:

Some of the similarities between AC4 & GB4

1. Victims were strangled- Alot of SK's strangle their victims. Its quiet, and personal. I dont think that is very telling.
2. Murder weapon was not found at crime scene. Organized offenders wont leave the weapon at the seen. Theyre too smart.
3. All victims murdered at another location and then moved to dump site. Another attribute of a organized offender. Not very uncommon for a organized offender.
4. All victims dumped outdoors along Atlantic coastal region Coincidence? Marsh land is a good dump site. Its rarely traveled through5. All victims women ages 20-40 (approx.) Thats a big gap not really indicitive of any pattern. It seems like hes just targeting prosititutes indicriminately. The ages of 20-40 are where 90% of prostitutes fall under.
7. Victims dumped in clusters: Fair point. Whatre the distances between?
8. Victims had addiction and money issues: Most prosititutes have these problems, which makes them very high risk and willing to do anything with anyone anywhere.
9. SK left little evidence at the dump site: An attribute of a organized offender.
10. All victims were prostitutes High Risk Behavior= A bulls eye for any deviant. Not very telling or distinguishing
11. SK did not try to hide the identity of the victims: Fair point, but the LI killer hid his well. These guys dont kill out of their comfort zone, and if this guys comfort zone is behind a seedy nasty motel, then he is contradicting himself from one to another.
12. Killer took trophy items: AC took shoes, what did the LI take? You have to be sure of what he took, you can't speculate. With AC, its more then obvious he stole their shoes, but can you be sure in LI?
13. Killer was familiar with both areas See. This is what gets me, and is my reason for why I dont think they are linked. The AC victims were street walkers. The LI victims came off craigslist or whatever. 2 different victimologies, and two different MO's. He takes the LI vics off craigslist bc there are no witnesses to see the pickup point as would be on a street corner. He's not comfortable with that (which could be for many reasons from insecurity to a noticable identifier about him). If may even be out of the norm for his social class. I am from a middle-class upbringing. Putting myself in the position where Id want to buy a prosititute, I would go through an escort service, offline, or some other "higher end" service. I would never go for a street walker, ever. There is a stigma attached to doing that which creates class boundries. Whoever killed those AC vics is a lowerclass guy that lives in that enviorment and fits in. He works a menial job, probably hungout in dirty strip clubs, was a patron of the girls before, and had some sort of trigger that set him off and he killed 4 people. He may have lost his job as a contruction laborer? Handyman? Janitor? Then he just stops. I think he committed suicide, OD'd... The LI killer uses a computer to hunt, not his car. He sets up appointments using a prepaid phone. He is unassuming, and probably gets the trust of these girls very quickly. He he more meticulous and detail oriented then the AC guy

When looking at the 5 windows of serial killing and what we know about both cases, they are similiar in three ways for sure.
Type of Abduction
Type of Kill
Disposal of bodies
My instincts tell me the victims were also stalked and are part of an ongoing fantasy of a Mission Killer. A mission killer would have been more outspoken by now. He'd need to share his story.


Also, here is a link that tells more about the GB4 victims.
http://www.newsday.com/long-island/faces-of-the-gilgo-beach-victims-1.2633910

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I think the LI killings show more of a relationship then the AC killings. The odds of two killers hunting in the same area, and who are of similar MO are very low.

This is very weird. All of a sudden this thread has turned in to "How the GB4 and the AC4 are not connected in any way to each other and every other murder in the US and abroad." Should we start another thread?

I agree and my POI is very outspoken.

tmacirish1 said:

I think the LI killings show more of a relationship then the AC killings. The odds of two killers hunting in the same area, and who are of similar MO are very low.

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That is, what LE thought in Los Angeles. So they got the Hillside Stranglers and missed Alcala. That is what LE thought in London in 1888, in fact, they had four in Eastend: Jack the Ripper, LTK-II, Cream and Koslowski. Also LE in Washington State thought so and booked Kathy Devine on Bundy ... till DNA proved, it was Cosden. Susan Davis and Elizabeth Perry were for decades implicitly books on Bundy (because he was around at the time, nothing more), but John Norman Collins was with a very similar MO around at the same time. The Baseline Killer and the Serial Shooter worked basically nearby areas at the same time in Phoenix. In Texas around League City, SKs not only hunted in the same area but also made fun of the police by re-using dump sites of other SKs. Especially is you have the not very specific signature of strangling prostitutes, there is more often than not a second one around.

Peter

BKS said:

This is very weird. All of a sudden this thread has turned in to "How the GB4 and the AC4 are not connected in any way to each other and every other murder in the US and abroad." Should we start another thread?

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I admittedly don't see a connection and none of the similarities posted as of yet, established in my opinion a real connection unless we want by accident connect every other SK ever caught on the East Coast. However, I hesitate to make a thread "Possible non-connections" or something. We have already so many threads and it is hard to get an overview.

Peter

This is interesting info on another murder case on the East Coast that could be related to any of the Long Island cases or AC.
This is info from another member.

Theforeigner said:

In the past, and also recently in another thread, the Florida "Suitcase Murders" have been discussed as possibly beeing connected to the GB4 and the AC4 murders.

Here is a map of the locations where the Suitcase Murders victims were found in Florida.
I have also added the location of where my POI lived:
NOTE! that my POI's address, at the time of the murders, is located in the very epicenter of where 3 of the victims were found.


This is a closeup map of where 3 of the Suitcase Murders victims were found + my POI's adress, at the time of the murders, and also his adress prior to the murders:

This is a full map of where all the Suitcase Murders victims were found + my POI's adress, at the time of the murders, and also his adress prior to the murders:

I will post info on the Suitcase Murders in my next post.

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This is interesting info on another murder case on the East Coast that could be related to any of the Long Island cases or AC.

<modsnip> Why would HA allow a fake profile to stay as a member as I'm assuming he runs the kim raffo page? And why does NOBODY but me care about the fake fb profiles?

I care. I would like to hear the answer from the one in charge of that page.

BKS said:

This is interesting info on another murder case on the East Coast that could be related to any of the Long Island cases or AC.
This is info from another member.


This is interesting info on another murder case on the East Coast that could be related to any of the Long Island cases or AC.

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I admit, I didn't look into that case. Any details? I have something in my mind about three women FOLDED in suitcases/duffel bag, but I'm not even sure whether that's the case you mean.

Peter

4 women

Right after the GB4 were ID'd, weren't fake FB pages added on each of the GB4 and then they "Friended" or were friended by the dead AC women's fake Facebook pages, as well?

Peter Brendt said:

I admit, I didn't look into that case. Any details? I have something in my mind about three women FOLDED in suitcases/duffel bag, but I'm not even sure whether that's the case you mean.

Peter

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Details on the Florida Suitcase Murders:

Post #119 and #120 in this thread page 5, here is a link:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159998&page=5

Not that I belive it has to mean anything but; Kim Raffo's father had a luggage bizz and Kim worked there with him since she was 12 years old.
HA and Kim became a cupple when Kim was 14, and HA was 21 years old.

Here is a quote about the luggage bizz:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/23/nyregion/23victim.html
"Kim Raffo and her younger sister grew up in the Canarsie area of Brooklyn, helping her father sell luggage out of a small shop in the financial district. By the time she was 12, Kim could run the store herself while her father, Robert, checked the inventory"

Foreigner, have you discovered where Kim used to stay on Fire Island? I remember there was a myspace album with photos of her there.

SherlockHomes said:

Foreigner, have you discovered where Kim used to stay on Fire Island? I remember there was a myspace album with photos of her there.

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I don't recall any connections and/or photos of Kim Raffo and Fire Island.

But if you, or anyone else, have copies or more info on that, I´m very interrested.


However Kim Raffo grew up on Long Island, but unfortunatly I don´t know where on LI, neither do I know if she still have family there?
But HA sure have a LOT of family/friends on LI.


http://articles.cnn.com/2011-07-30/...1_dead-woman-kim-raffo-addictions?_s=PM:CRIME
July 30, 2011|By Jacinth Planer, CNN Special Investigations

Quote:
"Kim Raffo seemed to have had a picture-perfect early life. She originally grew up on Long Island but then moved to Brooklyn, New York, where at 14 she met the man she would later marry, Hugh Auslander."

Im quite sure kim and hugh stayed on fire island and there was a whole photo album from fire island on hugh's myspace. Funny don't remember because I thought you were the one who pointed it out. hmm..we should definitely look into this..if i'm wrong about this i will retire from the case lol

SherlockHomes said:

Im quite sure kim and hugh stayed on fire island and there was a whole photo album from fire island on hugh's myspace. Funny don't remember because I thought you were the one who pointed it out. hmm..we should definitely look into this..if i'm wrong about this i will retire from the case lol

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I can asure you I have never seen any photo album from fire island on hugh's myspace or any other place, neither do I remember any info that they stayed there.

According to HA, HA and Kim stayed in the Jericho area (Long island) somtime from mid Sept 2006 to Oct 13 or 14, 2006.
However I don't belive HA is telling the full truth about where he was in the period from Sep ca 6th 2006 until Kim was found Nov 20 2006.

Wherter you are right or wrong, please stay on the case

I saw picture of her of when she was at her cousins house in Westhampton She was 11 or 12 Also a few phots fron nj in 2002 and 2005 on her FB page