TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April 2011 - #9

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confused said:
You can't have a clearing of soomeone as POI or suspect when there is NO CRIME to clear them of. Atkinson's statement of missing person case and the sheriff's statement are what tell us there is NO CRIME.
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Well...I'm not convinced there is no crime. If there is a crime we don't know it was committed by MP though. I can agree with you to that extent.

We just don't know, don't know, don't know.... It's maddening! Until she is found and we have a clear explanation, all options are still on the table IMO.
 
Emeralgem said:
Again... IMO still doesn't mean they don't suspect him of being a person of interest or a suspect in regards to Gail's disappearance....
IMHO. Until he is officially cleared without a shadow of a doubt by LE, IMO even IF he hasn't been named as a POI or a suspect, doesn't mean they don't suspect him of being involved...JMHO
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I will agree that until they show the LE marking his name off the list with a permanent marker, it isn't official, but I haven't seen them mark off Arlene's either, or anyone else for that matter, and yes, if they are really looking into this, they have to look at Arlene and anyone else that Gail would have had dealings with. Basically, they have said, over and over, that they don't see any crime, they don't see foul play, they have to keep looking, in the event something is found, but nothing yet. The searches were obviously not a big priority, they could have done them sooner, they could most likely have gotten a SW, they didn't. Even with permission, they still haven't done them all yet. From JBean's info earlier, we know that she left because she chose to do so, they can't find any foul play or evidence of crime, soooo, why should Matt have to prove himself innocent to anyone? His actions don't make him look guilty, they just don't satisfy the hunger the public has to hear what he knows, so the public keeps pushing. If they push enough, he will break and tell every dirty detail. Right? Matt has the American right of "innocent until proven guilty". The police have not found anything for him to be proven guilty of.
 
confused said:
From JBean's info earlier, we know that she left because she chose to do so, they can't find any foul play or evidence of crime, soooo, why should Matt have to prove himself innocent to anyone? His actions don't make him look guilty, they just don't satisfy the hunger the public has to hear what he knows, so the public keeps pushing. If they push enough, he will break and tell every dirty detail. Right? Matt has the American right of "innocent until proven guilty". The police have not found anything for him to be proven guilty of.
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I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, no, I'm not in this because I'm "hungry" for "dirty details." Sheesh.

It's not so much about proving himself innocent IMHO, it's about eliminating possible avenues of explanation as to her disappearance. He had been fighting with her, in a divorce, allegedly spending her money and wishing she would go away. If LE could determine that he had nothing to do with it, they could save their resources and explore other theories as to where Gail has gone.
 
confused said:
You can't have a clearing of soomeone as POI or suspect when there is NO CRIME to clear them of. Atkinson's statement of missing person case and the sheriff's statement are what tell us there is NO CRIME.
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Who has been cleared as a POI when no POI has been listed? LE is keeping their options open while giving updates on the case. I didnt find anything definitive in any of the statements other than they are still looking for Gail. :twocents:
 
confused said:
I will agree that until they show the LE marking his name off the list with a permanent marker, it isn't official, but I haven't seen them mark off Arlene's either, or anyone else for that matter, and yes, if they are really looking into this, they have to look at Arlene and anyone else that Gail would have had dealings with. Basically, they have said, over and over, that they don't see any crime, they don't see foul play, they have to keep looking, in the event something is found, but nothing yet. The searches were obviously not a big priority, they could have done them sooner, they could most likely have gotten a SW, they didn't. Even with permission, they still haven't done them all yet. From JBean's info earlier, we know that she left because she chose to do so, they can't find any foul play or evidence of crime, soooo, why should Matt have to prove himself innocent to anyone? His actions don't make him look guilty, they just don't satisfy the hunger the public has to hear what he knows, so the public keeps pushing. If they push enough, he will break and tell every dirty detail. Right? Matt has the American right of "innocent until proven guilty". The police have not found anything for him to be proven guilty of.
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With all due respect, Matt's actions post her disappearance do make him look guilty. And as for the innocent until proven guilty, well we are not a jury or a court of law. We are free to state our opinions here-that is what this website is designed to do, among other things. The bonus is someone here helping to contribute a piece of the puzzle.

I dont know if Matt P is guilty of anything other than looking suspicious. It is reasonable to question his actions I think, for all of the reasons we have all repeated here.
 
I was looking at the medication list that has now been made public, and based on my limited knowledge, I'm unimpressed.

I know that Adderall is for ADD, but does that connect any which way to displays of paranoia or efforts to treat it? Wellbutrin is an antidepressant.... Interesting that both drugs are in the range of stimulants. (Right??)

Depression would have been perfectly reasonable for her to be experiencing under the circumstances, as mentioned often on the forums. Sonata. Isn't that a very short acting sleep medication? Ok...sleep issues would be understandable. But she's on two stimulating medications. Seems a weird combo, but what do I know? Maybe SSRI's didn't work for her.

Then there's the amitriptyline HCL. This is the one I'm least familiar with, but I know it is in a different class of anti-depressant drugs. But isn't it commonly used off label? Hmmm. I'm remembering that drug name from the med list of a family member of mine. It definitely wasn't being used for depression treatment, but I'm not sure what it was for. I'm thinking maybe low dose as part of a blood pressure control combo? I know we have a couple verified medical pros on here. I would be interested to hear their take on the med list that has now been made public.

And I wonder if any of her meds were relatively new. If so, I'd be wondering if she had some kind of adverse reaction. I wonder if dosages were high or low.

I don't think the fact that these drugs were prescribed by a psychiatrist is particularly significant. I know several people who see a psychiatrist for management of such medications. If insurance provides for a specialist, it makes sense to use one, IMO. They know the drugs so much better than the general docs who often prescribe them. There's not a drug on that list that general docs don't manage on a routine basis, however. I don't think the fact that she was seeing a psychiatrist is in itself significant. I don't think it necessarily indicates dire psychiatric issues.

I am NOT a medical professional. Would like to hear viewpoint from one though.

ETA: Is there a single drug on the list that would be used in an effort to control paranoia? I thought anti-psychotics were prescribed for that, and I don't think I see one....
 
Somewhere around here I mentioned Adderall has been known to cause psychotic symptoms because it is an amphetamine, but I can't find the post I said that in (d'oh!) -- the thing is, it CAN be used in combination with an anti-psychotic, but to my knowledge, nothing on Gail's list would be considered an anti-psychotic. My personal opinion is that if anyone is trying to say the meds were indicative of psychosis, it's either (a) a claim she had severe depression, perhaps resistant-treatment depression, or (b) the Adderall gave her psychotic symptoms.

Amitriptyline is definitely used off label. I once had a cat who was on a low dose of it for anxiety!
 
JBean said:
Agreed.
I concur that family members and friends think that Gail left on her own-initially. I am of the mind that she left the SM house of her own free will to destination unknown.
But what happened after she left is the issue for me and I would assume is the issue for family members. She basically dropped off the face of the earth and no one expected that.
For example, if Gail called her sister, was upset and said I am leaving the house now and I am not sure where I am going but I have to get out of the house-DN's impression would be that she left voluntarily. But the fact that Gail did not show up anywhere and no one has a heard from her, it would be clear that she left voluntarily but circumstances changed somewhere along the line.
JMHO.
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Thanks for the info, JBean!

From very early on, I was really concerned about that roughly 46-hour time period between Gail leaving at 12:15 and the morning of the 2nd when DN called LE. Actually, I think since DN called the morning of the 2nd, we can assume she was already worried on the 1st -- probably on the evening of the 30th. MP wasn't worried, though, he was off having a blast at a game that evening. Yet we don't know what happened between 12:15 and the time he was seen at the game. Did they meet and have a fight? Any phone calls between MP and Gail? So many questions!

By the way, what time was the game? I thought I remembered seeing 6:00 PM but now I can't find anything on it.
 
glorias said:
Somewhere around here I mentioned Adderall has been known to cause psychotic symptoms because it is an amphetamine....

[snip]
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I know that can happen. I'd like to know if it can happen after having been on it for some time. That's my thought in asking if they were new drugs for her. Wouldn't the chances of a reaction like that be very low if her system were used to the med?

And...on your other comment... how did the amitriptyline work for your cat? [I had no idea these drugs were used for pets....]

Anti-anxiety...that's interesting. Sounds like she's got two stimulating meds on the list and two relaxing meds on the list. Maybe something in there was meant to counter a reaction from one of the others?
 
Pearl* said:
I know that can happen. I'd like to know if it can happen after having been on it for some time. That's my thought in asking if they were new drugs for her. Wouldn't the chances of a reaction like that be very low if her system were used to the med?

And...on your other comment... how did the amitriptyline work for your cat? [I had no idea these drugs were used for pets....]

Anti-anxiety...that's interesting. Sounds like she's got two stimulating meds on the list and two relaxing meds on the list. Maybe something in there was meant to counter a reaction from one of the others?
Click to expand...

That is a good question, how long had she been on Adderall? Since she was diagnosed with ADHD as a teen, I would assume she had been on it a while or had at least tried it before. Just a guess, though. At any rate, between her and MP, they should have been VERY familiar with potential side effects.

The amitriptyline sedated my cat, enough that even on a low dose I ended up taking him off of it after about a year. When I do medical reports, I occasionally see someone prescribed that med for before bedtime to possibly help with sleep.
 
Oriah said:
JBean, not to beat yet another dead horse- but this is why I'd like to narrow down Gail's exact route of travel when leaving SM.

I think it's possible that her phone was discarded or lost that day- and either was not destroyed until the 2nd, or finally died on the 2nd.
I've even contemplated that it was stolen.
Which begs me to ask another question.
Has the vin been run as reported stolen?
TIA...
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Or thrown out a car window on Mountain Creek Rd???? I have always wondered if anyone searched for it around the W Rd area.
 
Pearl* said:
I was looking at the medication list that has now been made public, and based on my limited knowledge, I'm unimpressed.

I know that Adderall is for ADD, but does that connect any which way to displays of paranoia or efforts to treat it? Wellbutrin is an antidepressant.... Interesting that both drugs are in the range of stimulants. (Right??)

Depression would have been perfectly reasonable for her to be experiencing under the circumstances, as mentioned often on the forums. Sonata. Isn't that a very short acting sleep medication? Ok...sleep issues would be understandable. But she's on two stimulating medications. Seems a weird combo, but what do I know? Maybe SSRI's didn't work for her.

Then there's the amitriptyline HCL. This is the one I'm least familiar with, but I know it is in a different class of anti-depressant drugs. But isn't it commonly used off label? Hmmm. I'm remembering that drug name from the med list of a family member of mine. It definitely wasn't being used for depression treatment, but I'm not sure what it was for. I'm thinking maybe low dose as part of a blood pressure control combo? I know we have a couple verified medical pros on here. I would be interested to hear their take on the med list that has now been made public.

And I wonder if any of her meds were relatively new. If so, I'd be wondering if she had some kind of adverse reaction. I wonder if dosages were high or low.

I don't think the fact that these drugs were prescribed by a psychiatrist is particularly significant. I know several people who see a psychiatrist for management of such medications. If insurance provides for a specialist, it makes sense to use one, IMO. They know the drugs so much better than the general docs who often prescribe them. There's not a drug on that list that general docs don't manage on a routine basis, however. I don't think the fact that she was seeing a psychiatrist is in itself significant. I don't think it necessarily indicates dire psychiatric issues.

I am NOT a medical professional. Would like to hear viewpoint from one though.

ETA: Is there a single drug on the list that would be used in an effort to control paranoia? I thought anti-psychotics were prescribed for that, and I don't think I see one....
Click to expand...

I have not seen the list of medications yet, but I would be interested to know where the list came from. In other words, were these medications that she was known to be taking regularly together at the time of her disappearance. Often, doctors prescribe a multitude of medications to patients over time and many of them are discontinued as a new one is tried. This is particularly true in the case of antidepressants. There are many antidepressants on the market and a physician once told me that the trick he used in prescribing them is to look at the problems the patient is having and choose a medication that has the side effects that will most help their symptoms. For example, if a depressed patient is having difficulty sleeping, he would prescribe an antidepressant that causes sleepiness and instruct to take the medication at bedtime. If the person is sleeping too much (common in some people with depression), he would prescribe an antidepressant that is not likely to cause sleepiness. Many people have drawers and medicine cabinets full of bottles of meds that have been tried and discontinued. I would not want someone to make a list of all of the bottles of pills in my bathroom and say that this is my medication list. That would be false. Only Gail and her physician would know exactly what she was taking every day. Adderall is definitely prescribed for ADD or ADHD and it has been noted that Gail was diagnosed with this as a teenager or young adult, so it would not be unusual for her to be still taking that medication. Wellbutrin is a very common antidepressant prescribed to young or middle aged adults and I would consider a first stage drug. In other words, one of the first drugs to try. It has few side effects and works well in that age group. I am not aware of it being classified as a stimulant. Amitryptilline or Elavil is an antidepressant sometimes referred to as a mood elevator. It is also used for neuropathy and chronic pain and can definitely be prescribed for patients with difficulty sleeping as it will often cause sleepiness. Doctors often will prescribe 2 or more antidepressants to be used together as a sort of cocktail to control several symptoms. Wellbutrin, for example, could be taken in the morning for depression and would not cause sleepiness and then the Elavil could be taken at night to help the patient fall asleep. I am not as familiar with Sonata, but it is classified as a hypnotic and could be used PRN, or "as needed" for sleep. I see nothing unusual about this list. It appears that in addition to depression, Gail may have been complaining of difficulty sleeping. I see nothing that concerns me that these medications could have caused any issues such as paranoia or delusions, etc. They actually say to me that Gail may have only recently been prescribed these medications as they seem pretty first stage to me. Wellbutrin is often a first choice for Gail's age group. More serious antidepressants such as Zoloft and Prozac, etc., would come later. The Adderall is the only one that stands out to me, but like I said, if she has been taking that for years, that would not be odd and she would be very used to it's effects. This is all just my opinion.

ETA: I just noticed your last sentence. No, none of these drugs you listed would be used to treat paranoia. None of these drugs are anti-psychotics.
 
Just to clarify when I say" I am of the mind" that something happened a certain way I am saying that is what I think aka my opinion.
 
glorias said:
Thanks for the info, JBean!

From very early on, I was really concerned about that roughly 46-hour time period between Gail leaving at 12:15 and the morning of the 2nd when DN called LE. Actually, I think since DN called the morning of the 2nd, we can assume she was already worried on the 1st -- probably on the evening of the 30th. MP wasn't worried, though, he was off having a blast at a game that evening. Yet we don't know what happened between 12:15 and the time he was seen at the game. Did they meet and have a fight? Any phone calls between MP and Gail? So many questions!

By the way, what time was the game? I thought I remembered seeing 6:00 PM but now I can't find anything on it.
Click to expand...

BBm..I'm thinking 7:15 pm, however IF there are promotions and give-a-ways going on many people get there early.. Some people start filing in as early as 6:00 pm, maybe even earlier..JMHO
 
The list of meds only comes from matt and it says that gail has been prescribed them. We have no idea if she actually took any of them. Many meds are trial and error so. We are truly clueless what she was taking if anything.
 
Melodie said:
I have not seen the list of medications yet, but I would be interested to know where the list came from. In other words, were these medications that she was known to be taking regularly together at the time of her disappearance. Often, doctors prescribe a multitude of medications to patients over time and many of them are discontinued as a new one is tried. This is particularly true in the case of antidepressants. There are many antidepressants on the market and a physician once told me that the trick he used in prescribing them is to look at the problems the patient is having and choose a medication that has the side effects that will most help their symptoms. For example, if a depressed patient is having difficulty sleeping, he would prescribe an antidepressant that causes sleepiness and instruct to take the medication at bedtime. If the person is sleeping too much (common in some people with depression), he would prescribe an antidepressant that is not likely to cause sleepiness. Many people have drawers and medicine cabinets full of bottles of meds that have been tried and discontinued. I would not want someone to make a list of all of the bottles of pills in my bathroom and say that this is my medication list. That would be false. Only Gail and her physician would know exactly what she was taking every day. Adderall is definitely prescribed for ADD or ADHD and it has been noted that Gail was diagnosed with this as a teenager or young adult, so it would not be unusual for her to be still taking that medication. Wellbutrin is a very common antidepressant prescribed to young or middle aged adults and I would consider a first stage drug. In other words, one of the first drugs to try. It has few side effects and works well in that age group. I am not aware of it being classified as a stimulant. Amitryptilline or Elavil is an antidepressant sometimes referred to as a mood elevator. It is also used for neuropathy and chronic pain and can definitely be prescribed for patients with difficulty sleeping as it will often cause sleepiness. Doctors often will prescribe 2 or more antidepressants to be used together as a sort of cocktail to control several symptoms. Wellbutrin, for example, could be taken in the morning for depression and would not cause sleepiness and then the Elavil could be taken at night to help the patient fall asleep. I am not as familiar with Sonata, but it is classified as a hypnotic and could be used PRN, or "as needed" for sleep. I see nothing unusual about this list. It appears that in addition to depression, Gail may have been complaining of difficulty sleeping. I see nothing that concerns me that these medications could have caused any issues such as paranoia or delusions, etc. They actually say to me that Gail may have only recently been prescribed these medications as they seem pretty first stage to me. Wellbutrin is often a first choice for Gail's age group. More serious antidepressants such as Zoloft and Prozac, etc., would come later. The Adderall is the only one that stands out to me, but like I said, if she has been taking that for years, that would not be odd and she would be very used to it's effects. This is all just my opinion.

ETA: I just noticed your last sentence. No, none of these drugs you listed would be used to treat paranoia. None of these drugs are anti-psychotics.
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:twocents:Thank you Melodie...I appreciate the professional "backup" on the "medication" aspect of this case. I just wanted to say that I AGREE TOTALLY WITH YOUR POST:gthanks: PS ----> One more "off label" use for generic elavil is "RLS" (aka restless leg syndrome)
 
Thanks, Melodie. I've read so many different places that I'm not sure where I saw what anymore, but the medication list was in one of the court documents.... Wasn't it? I'm trying to make sense of the claims that the psychiatrist was treating her for escalating paranoia. The claims of delusional behavior, manic symptoms, etc.

I don't see it here. Like you said, sounds more like depression and sleep issues to me. Maybe an anxiety component, considering the amitriptyline? On the Wellbutrin, I thought it was considered a "stimulating" antidepressant in a category all by itself. Isn't it used to help people quit smoking too?
 
So of every topic we've covered on here, medicine is probably the thing I know the least about....unless baking becomes relevant at some point.

So perhaps this is ridiculous, BUT if you were taking these med combos long term and had no issues, and then began to have some kind of pre-menopausal hormone fluctuations, would that affect how your body responded to these medications?

I'm not sold that Gail WAS having issues, but exploring all options...
 
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