NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 8

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Jane Birch said:
One thing I will never, ever, ever understand is why Fred was not contacted by police until 3:26 the next afternoon.
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Yes, for all that LE knew, it might have been a stolen car. But, hey, I had a car stolen years ago and it sat in Pittsburgh impound for 7 weeks. Finally, someone called me and I told them to get in touch with the insurance company, because I had already settled the stolen car claim. So it's not like a wrecked or stolen car gets immediate attention from LE. On the other hand (to argue against myself and with Jane) the star-shaped crack in the windshield should have ben a red flag. The driver could have had a closed-end head trauma or concussion and symptoms might not emerge for hours. And of course in a great department, someone would have picked up the phone and called the owner. It would have taken a minute to look up a phone number and a minute to dial and leave a message.
 
pittsburghgirl said:
Yes, good points. And of course, this was a college girl, age 21. A "strong, happy relationship" at that age is nothing like (say) a marriage of some years duration, with property and children. The only issues about their relationship grow out of either the question of why Maura was in NH (to commit suicide? to meet a lover? because she was under stress, etc.) or whether she was traveling with or meeting someone who would either have important information or who might be suspect. Billy was not anywhere near Mass. or NH, so it's not like he's a suspect.

I am not sure how much any parent knows about the emotional life or love life of a 21-year old woman. Many times, the parents are the last ones to learn that someone in a relationship wants out. All that is normal, normal, normal for people in this age group; moreover, it is healthy. The whole point of late adolescence and early adulthood is for young people to separate and differentiate from the parents. In addition, if the extended families have become fond of a boyfriend or girlfriend, it is less likely that the families will know if one party is planning to break off the relationship, as kids have enough trouble breaking up without negotiating the disappointments of a whole family. In other words, Fred, the Rausches and everyone else may be telling all that they know. They may have differing perspectives. And it is possible that no one knew exactly what Maura was thinking about her relationship and so of course we can't know either.
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I agree about parents possibly being in the dark, but not Maura's sisters, particularly Kathleen whom she talked about relationships with every day.

Odd how we don't hear much about julie and the kind of relationship she had with maura. (No I am not making any accusations, just stating an observation) Julie and Billy Rausch graduated together at West Point. I would assume Julie is possibly responsible for hooking the two up (But I repeat, I am assuming, don't know for a fact).
 
At the risk of being redundant, it seems to me that there are essentially two fates which could have befallen Maura. One, she succumbed to the elements - went into the woods, or what have you, and never came out. Two, she was picked up or abducted by a criminal.

I realize that it is possible Maura is alive and happily living a new life somewhere else, but I think the likelihood of this is low enough to rule it out, at least for the sake of this particular post.

Like several other posters, I would characterize much of the business in Maura's personal life leading up to the accident as more or less noise, distraction. While I appreciate Mr. Renner's efforts, lately he seems to be acting more like a gossip-hound than a true sleuth. Even if some of the elements of Maura's life in MA are directly connected to her vanishing in NH, I think it's simply wise to focus on the latter area above all else.

One of the greatest (if not the greatest) problems facing anyone trying to get a handle on what happened to Maura is - what was she thinking? What was running through her head when she left the scene of the accident? Obviously we can't know this, but we can guess based on her reported behavior.

OK, so...

Maura refuses BA's offer to come inside and use his phone. Why? One - as said in previous posts, he's an intimidating-looking guy, she doesn't want to take chances. Two - and more likely - she simply doesn't want to draw any attention by LE or anyone else. As we know, she lied to BA about calling triple-A for help. She's in panic mode at this point. Whatever her planned destination was, this second accident in as many days put a huge dent in it. The alcohol, the fear of her father's reaction, it all adds up to an instinctive urge to flee. So she does. It's cold out there, and Maura is probably soon regretting BA's offer. It's getting very dark as well, if it hasn't already. Maura is a good runner but the stress of what she's going through, plus the literal weight of what she's carrying (backpack, alcohol, etc), might make it very difficult to keep going. And so now there are two possibilities, the ones I outlined earlier.

My question is, which is more likely:
Maura, freezing cold, traumatized and fatigued, slips into the woods - to do what? To die? Certainly not to take a nap. If one wants to push this theory, it also has to be conjectured, I think, that Maura suffered some kind of concussion or head injury from the accident which impaired her thinking, and/or was feeling deeply, genuinely suicidal.
OR
Maura, still shaken from the accident and wary of LE, nevertheless realizes she must get out of this safely and determines to continue jogging down Bradley Hill Rd. to the nearest place where she can rest, use a telephone and recover. But someone abducts her, either willingly or unwillingly, and we're left with this mystery.

Still back at square one...
 
jeffries said:
At the risk of being redundant, it seems to me that there are essentially two fates which could have befallen Maura. One, she succumbed to the elements - went into the woods, or what have you, and never came out. Two, she was picked up or abducted by a criminal.

I realize that it is possible Maura is alive and happily living a new life somewhere else, but I think the likelihood of this is low enough to rule it out, at least for the sake of this particular post.

Like several other posters, I would characterize much of the business in Maura's personal life leading up to the accident as more or less noise, distraction. While I appreciate Mr. Renner's efforts, lately he seems to be acting more like a gossip-hound than a true sleuth. Even if some of the elements of Maura's life in MA are directly connected to her vanishing in NH, I think it's simply wise to focus on the latter area above all else.

One of the greatest (if not the greatest) problems facing anyone trying to get a handle on what happened to Maura is - what was she thinking? What was running through her head when she left the scene of the accident? Obviously we can't know this, but we can guess based on her reported behavior

OK, so...

Maura refuses BA's offer to come inside and use his phone. Why? One - as said in previous posts, he's an intimidating-looking guy, she doesn't want to
take chances. Two - and more likely - she simply doesn't want to draw any attention by LE or anyone else. As we know, she lied to BA about calling triple-A for help. She's in panic mode at this point. Whatever her planned destination was, this second accident in as many days put a huge dent in it. The alcohol, the fear of her father's reaction, it all adds up to an instinctive urge to flee. So she does. It's cold out there, and Maura is probably soon regretting BA's offer. It's getting very dark as well, if it hasn't already. Maura is a good runner but the stress of what she's going through, plus the literal weight of what she's carrying (backpack, alcohol, etc), might make it very difficult to keep going. And so now there are two possibilities, the ones I outlined earlier.

My question is, which is more likely:
Maura, freezing cold, traumatized and fatigued, slips into the woods - to do what? To die? Certainly not to take a nap. If one wants to push this theory, it also has to be conjectured, I think, that Maura suffered some kind of concussion or head injury from the accident which impaired her thinking, and/or was feeling deeply, genuinely suicidal.
OR
Maura, still shaken from the accident and wary of LE, nevertheless realizes she must get out of this safely and determines to continue jogging down Bradley Hill Rd. to the nearest place where she can rest, use a telephone and recover. But someone abducts her, either willingly or unwillingly, and we're left with this
mystery.

Still back at square one...
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It's interesting that after Renner's revelations written in his blog, I still have the same theories. I also feel she either passed away from exposure, or someone did harm to her. My third possibility is accident. Perhaps, she was hit by a car, or she twisted an ankle and had a hard time making it to town. Exposure got her.
 
scoops said:
Yeah, I will be honest on that one, I heard from two varying sources that he was a police officer and typically I will use two sources (with no relation to one another) to help me determine whether or not something is correct or false. And then I found an article in which they quoted him as saying he use to be a police officer, so that is why I believed it to be fact.

I did my own research on the matter and found out that his mom (who was living with him the night Maura went missing) was both a retired RN and a speical police officer for the Raynham Police department (I'm assuming that is either in NH or MASS) It is also possible his father was a police officer from Taunton as well who was shot and killed in the line of duty, but I just had uncovered that bit of info last night, so I haven't checked to see if that arthur atwood was his father or grandfather or no relation at all.

Seems like his family has a strong police connection though.
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Raynham is near Taunton, MA.
 
goldiegirl said:
I've really enjoyed reading all the new info (or supposed info) and theories posted lately from people who have been discussing this case much longer than I have. Two quick things I wanted to contribute. Other than this, I don't have much I can add to what's already been said.

1) With regard to the discussion about whether or not Fred aggravated the situation by suing LE and whether or not that was a smart move - I can see that in hindsight (or second-hand hindsight, if you will, since it's coming from our perspective) it might seem like it wasn't the best way to encourage a cooperative relationship with LE. However, like others have said, what did he have to lose at this point? I think until a person's been in that situation, it's hard to throw stones.
My husband went missing in a dangerous part of our city and was beaten and robbed (ultimately returned home and healed). I know how it feels to feel like LE is not taking a case seriously. I came to the point of weighing the pros and cons of filing an internal affairs complaint about the way the investigation and the missing persons reports were handled (or, rather, mishandled) until I realized it was better for our sanity just to let it go.

After having been in that position, I empathize a lot more with Fred Murray and other family members who feel like LE isn't letting them in on what's going on. In my case, for example, they told me his parents, who live out of state, would be contacted before I would in the event my husband was found, because their first reaction was that I looked too young to be married. They didn't take me seriously at all, didn't tell me what to do in the interim, were very insensitive, and were ready to send me home by myself with no plan and no investigation starting until Monday (this happened on a Saturday), with the plan to call his PARENTS instead of me if he was found. It was insulting and devastating, not to mention the double victimization of how poorly the beating was handled later. Anyway, all this is to say that I've ALWAYS been a supporter of LE, my FIL is a police chief, my degree is in CJ, and I never
thought I'd find myself in opposition with LE, but being the family member of a victim and feeling like LE is not on your side is a terrible feeling.

On to my second point/question, finally...

2) There's been mention of LE saying they believe Maura is deceased and can be found within a 5 mile radius of the crash site. I know 5 miles in each direction is a lot of ground to cover, but I wonder if anyone's ever thought about calling in an organization like Texas Equusearch to at least give it a shot if LE is so confident about this? I know at this juncture a lot of their tools, like tracking dogs, would be useless, but they still have a lot of manpower and can put a lot of feet on the ground to cover the area. I know there are "hotter"
cases, and maybe the family thinks it would be in poor taste to ask them to use their resources on a case this old, but I believe they'll come out to pretty much any case they're called to help with, and I don't see what it could hurt.

We just had a search here by the Laura Recovery Center for a girl who's been missing for over a year. One year, seven years, no difference, really. The dogs weren't going to pick anything up in her case, either, and if she were out there she'd be deceased at that point, so they were just looking for either her body or some evidence - same thing they'd be doing in Maura's case.
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It seems like LE likes to have some evidence or a lead before they search an area. I think the best time to search in that area is fall and spring when the growth is died back. In the summer, New England becomes a jungle, so it is almost impossible to search at that time. During winter, everything is buried by snow. I'd like to see the road sides of Rt. 112 and 116 searched, especially past what they had searched early in the investigation.
 
McSpy said:
It seems like LE likes to have some evidence or a lead before they search an area. I think the best time to search in that area is fall and spring when the growth is died back. In the summer, New England becomes a jungle, so it is almost impossible to search at that time. During winter, everything is buried by snow. I'd like to see the road sides of Rt. 112 and 116 searched, especially past what they had searched early in the investigation.
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An important distinction to note.

It wasn't the LE or any kind of law enforcement that have said Maura would be found in a five mile radius from the accident. It was a hired private investigator (by the family) terrence o'connell, I believe.

I didn't get the sense that they had any kind of specific clue that they are using to come up with that theory, more or less just relying upon statistical norm for a missing person and an abandoned car.
 
scoops said:
An important distinction to note.

It wasn't the LE or any kind of law enforcement that have said Maura would be found in a five mile radius from the accident. It was a hired private investigator (by the family) terrence o'connell, I believe.

I didn't get the sense that they had any kind of specific clue that they are using to come up with that theory, more or less just relying upon statistical norm for a missing person and an abandoned car.
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Hey Scoops, you where there not too long ago correct? I just wondering if anyone knew the spot that RF said he had scene Maura or thought he did run off a side road. Did you happen to go there?
 
telemag said:
Hey Scoops, you where there not too long ago correct? I just wondering if anyone knew the spot that RF said he had scene Maura or thought he did run off a side road. Did you happen to go there?
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Truthfully, it wasn't until I arrived up onto the accident scene and elected to head further east that I even recalled the RF sighting (I have always been skeptical of his sighting). So I didn't have the specifics down on where to look. But I understood it to be about five miles on past the accident site and I definitely continued driving for more than five miles east.

For a first time person to that area. I was expecting that once I continued east from the accident scene, I would just be driving into a thick forest with little or no signs of humans. But quite the contrary. there were plenty of houses right off the road on both sides, some were up above the road on hills, some were off the road a bit with longer windy driveways. some were even below the road with nice big fields for yards.

I even drove by one house that was having a party outside and there were I estimate over 30 people there. (this was on a Saturday evening). So peopoel in that area were a plentiful and there was opportunity for Maura to seek help, or even if she was confronted by someone, a scream would've likely alerted someone. Maybe in the winter time people disperse from the area, but I bet a nice chunk of them remain. Most of these houses didn't look like summer houses.
 
scoops said:
Truthfully, it wasn't until I arrived up onto the accident scene and elected to head further east that I even recalled the RF sighting (I have always been skeptical of his sighting). So I didn't have the specifics down on where to look. But I understood it to be about five miles on past the accident site and I definitely continued driving for more than five miles east.

For a first time person to that area. I was expecting that once I continued east from the accident scene, I would just be driving into a thick forest with little or no signs of humans. But quite the contrary. there were plenty of houses right off the road on both sides, some were up above the road on hills, some were off the road a bit with longer windy driveways. some were even below the road with nice big fields for yards.

I even drove by one house that was having a party outside and there were I estimate over 30 people there. (this was on a Saturday evening). So peopoel in that area were a plentiful and there was opportunity for Maura to seek help, or even if she was confronted by someone, a scream would've likely alerted someone. Maybe in the winter time people disperse from the area, but I bet a nice chunk of them remain. Most of these houses didn't look like summer houses.
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So what you are saying is that there where plenty of houses basically right up the road from where Maura started to walk? This makes things even more confusing! At this point I am almost ready to believe that Maura was abducted by aliens. :banghead: On a side note does anyone know any more news about the skull that was found? Thanks Scoops.
 
telemag said:
So what you are saying is that there where plenty of houses basically right up the road from where Maura started to walk? This makes things even more confusing! At this point I am almost ready to believe that Maura was abducted by aliens. :banghead: On a side note does anyone know any more news about the skull that was found? Thanks Scoops.
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There were an abundance of houses but there were plenty open fields and wooded areas as well on both sides of the road. Typically as i recall I would see a couple of houses on one side of the road with a couple more directly opposite and then there would be an open patch of wooded area on both sides and then more houses and then more open patch of woods.

So basically not knowing precisely if Maura cut off into the woods somwhere, finding her would literally be a miracle if in fact she did succumb to the elements eventually. I had the errie feeling as I was driving that If I happened to wander into the woods somewhere out here and got lost, no one would ever find me
 
jeffries said:
...it seems to me that there are essentially two fates which could have befallen Maura. One, she succumbed to the elements - went into the woods, or what have you, and never came out. Two, she was picked up or abducted by a criminal.
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I agree.

jeffries said:
...I would characterize much of the business in Maura's personal life leading up to the accident as more or less noise, distraction...

...One of the greatest (if not the greatest) problems facing anyone trying to get a handle on what happened to Maura is - what was she thinking?
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I agree with your second point, which is why I judge Renner's reporting regarding your first point to be necessary and valuable. Since we don't know what MM did just before or just after the accident, the only way we can address the problem of what she was thinking is to go back to Massachusetts and find out all we can about her personal life. Gossipy, yes. But the only guidance we have as to her state of mind.

jeffries said:
Even if some of the elements of Maura's life in MA are directly connected to her vanishing in NH, I think it's simply wise to focus on the latter area above all else.
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That approach has left us staring into the forest for the past seven years, projecting theories. "If some of the elements of Maura's life in MA are directly connected to her vanishing in NH," I'd like to hear about them.

(Again, I agree with you about the likelihood of abduction or exposure....)
 
scoops said:
There were an abundance of houses
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I've driven that route many times and I would disagree with the word "abundance." There are some houses, some of which might have had a light on. But there are many, many stretches where there would be no light in sight, especially after Bradley Hill Road. If we've both driven the route, we presumably agree about how many houses there are and disagree about vocabulary -- but I would say the area along the road to the east is "sparsely populated."
 
scoops said:
An important distinction to note.

It wasn't the LE or any kind of law enforcement that have said Maura would be found in a five mile radius from the accident. It was a hired private investigator (by the family) terrence o'connell, I believe.

I didn't get the sense that they had any kind of specific clue that they are using to come up with that theory, more or less just relying upon statistical norm for a missing person and an abandoned car.
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Very good point, but Maura was a young, physically fit champion runner, so I think the range could be further away from the accident scene.
 
gnomony said:
I've driven that route many times and I would disagree with the word "abundance." There are some houses, some of which might have had a light on. But there are many, many stretches where there would be no light in sight, especially after Bradley Hill Road. If we've both driven the route, we presumably agree about how many houses there are and disagree about vocabulary -- but I would say the area along the road to the east is "sparsely populated."
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Abundance may have been too strong of a word to use, but I was shocked to see as many houses as I did (most of them had people sitting outside on porches --it was summer time).

And I say all that, because I did want to get out and do a lot of looking around, but I could never get to a comfortable enough open spot to where I felt like I could snoop and not have someone confront me. So mostly I would drive a few hunderd yards, pull my car off onto a dirt path then back out of the path and move up the road another couple hundred of yards pull into a different dirt path. (I may be wrong, but I think I also encountred some more businesses as well as houses like people that have started a business out of their house.)

But anyway, it would be really hard to determine where Maura would've zigged and zagged if she did in fact take off on foot heading east. So many options for her and she could've just headed down Bradley Rd (South direction) as opposed to continuing on east. There would literally have to something like her backpack found before a true centered search could take place in an area out there. otherwise, it is like finding a needle in a haystack.

She could of also been successful in reaching whatever her final destination was (On either foot or by help from a car).
 
snipped to point of interest
jeffries said:
At the risk of being redundant, it seems to me that there are essentially two fates which could have befallen Maura. One, she succumbed to the elements - went into the woods, or what have you, and never came out. Two, she was picked up or abducted by a criminal.
.
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First, have to laugh when you mentioned "at the risk of being redundant" - -I think we all are, and it seems to be the nature of these forums. So I enjoy reading peoples thoughts and views. Thanks for yours!

Second, You mention two points. Consider a third - picked up by a person(s) who have no criminal background, but just happen to find them self with a vulnerable young woman...
 
goldiegirl said:
I've really enjoyed reading all the new info (or supposed info) and theories posted lately from people who have been discussing this case much longer than I have. Two quick things I wanted to contribute. Other than this, I don't have much I can add to what's already been said.

1) With regard to the discussion about whether or not Fred aggravated the situation by suing LE and whether or not that was a smart move - I can see that in hindsight (or second-hand hindsight, if you will, since it's coming from our perspective) it might seem like it wasn't the best way to encourage a cooperative relationship with LE. However, like others have said, what did he have to lose at this point? I think until a person's been in that situation, it's hard to throw stones.

My husband went missing in a dangerous part of our city and was beaten and robbed (ultimately returned home and healed). I know how it feels to feel like LE is not taking a case seriously. I came to the point of weighing the pros and cons of filing an internal affairs complaint about the way the investigation and the missing persons reports were handled (or, rather, mishandled) until I realized it was better for our sanity just to let it go.

After having been in that position, I empathize a lot more with Fred Murray and other family members who feel like LE isn't letting them in on what's going on. In my case, for example, they told me his parents, who live out of state, would be contacted before I would in the event my husband was found, because their first reaction was that I looked too young to be married. They didn't take me seriously at all, didn't tell me what to do in the interim, were very insensitive, and were ready to send me home by myself with no plan and no investigation starting until Monday (this happened on a Saturday), with the plan to call his PARENTS instead of me if he was found. It was insulting and devastating, not to mention the double victimization of how poorly the beating was handled later. Anyway, all this is to say that I've ALWAYS been a supporter of LE, my FIL is a police chief, my degree is in CJ, and I never thought I'd find myself in opposition with LE, but being the family member of a victim and feeling like LE is not on your side is a terrible feeling.

On to my second point/question, finally...

2) There's been mention of LE saying they believe Maura is deceased and can be found within a 5 mile radius of the crash site. I know 5 miles in each direction is a lot of ground to cover, but I wonder if anyone's ever thought about calling in an organization like Texas Equusearch to at least give it a shot if LE is so confident about this? I know at this juncture a lot of their tools, like tracking dogs, would be useless, but they still have a lot of manpower and can put a lot of feet on the ground to cover the area. I know there are "hotter" cases, and maybe the family thinks it would be in poor taste to ask them to use their resources on a case this old, but I believe they'll come out to pretty much any case they're called to help with, and I don't see what it could hurt.

We just had a search here by the Laura Recovery Center for a girl who's been missing for over a year. One year, seven years, no difference, really. The dogs weren't going to pick anything up in her case, either, and if she were out there she'd be deceased at that point, so they were just looking for either her body or some evidence - same thing they'd be doing in Maura's case.
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Texas Equusearch was called. I don't know why they didn't search. It's fueled speculation that NHSP didn't need or want any outside help for whatever reasons.
 
mcsmom said:
Texas Equusearch was called. I don't know why they didn't search. It's fueled speculation that NHSP didn't need or want any outside help for whatever reasons.
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Do you know at what stage in the investigation they were called? I don't see any reason why someone can't call them again. Maybe initially LE told the family it would do no good, so they decided against it, but now that the Murrays don't seem to be getting anywhere with LE, I see no reason why they can't call TES back, even if LE says they don't need their help. The family has nothing to lose.
 
Regarding Maura's statement that she called AAA: we don't know that she didn't try to call someone. She may not have had cell service at the site of the accident and that might have prompted her to jog up the road, hoping to get a signal. In some places, all a person has to do is find a gap in the trees and cell service pops back. She may have decided not to wait for LE to show up and figured she could call AAA (if she had that) once she got to a place with cell service. So I am not convinced she was lying about the AAA. call; she might have intended to call once she had the opportunity, but fell victim to accident or foul play before she had a chance to call.
 
pittsburghgirl said:
Regarding Maura's statement that she called AAA: we don't know that sje didn't try to call someone. she may not have had cell service at the site of the accident and that might have prompted her to jog up the road, hoping to get a signal. In some places, all a person has to do is find a gap in the trees and cell service pops back. She may have decided not to wait for LE to show up and figured she could call AAA (if she had that) once she got to a place with cell service. So I am not convinced she was lying about the AAA. call; she might have intended to call once she had the opportunity, but fell victim to accident or foul play before she had a chance to call.
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IIRC, her AAA card was found on the front passenger seat, which leaves me to believe she made attempts to call AAA. She didn't take the card with her when she took off. However, AAA would still come to her aid and get the card number at another time. They are very good about
that. I'm not sure she knew how it works.

I can't find a link on the AAA card being on the front passenger seat, but I could have sworn I read it somewhere. I do know for sure she left the AAA card in the car, because it was listed as one of the items she left behind.
 
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