All About Chloroform#2

Jolynna said:

Chloroform can be made from easy-to-obtain products. There are instructions on how to do it online.

There are links to those sites on the previous WS chloroform threads.

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Ok, interesting! I'm a bit confused now. If I find that link I'll come back and post it!

Valhall, if the chloroform disolved the adhesive on the duct tape, causing KC to need to use multiple pieces, why then was the duct tape still sticky enough to stick for the next 6 months, holding the jaw bone in place even during the flooding in the swamp following the hurricane?

I agree with many of your posts on the other threads, however, I disagree on that point.

Wisteria said:

Valhall, if the chloroform disolved the adhesive on the duct tape, causing KC to need to use multiple pieces, why then was the duct tape still sticky enough to stick for the next 6 months, holding the jaw bone in place even during the flooding in the swamp following the hurricane?

I agree with many of your posts on the other threads, however, I disagree on that point.

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Good points, Wisteria. I'm think of multiple strips of tape in longer and longer strips until finally the strip went basically around the head but was overlaid on the previous strips (hope that makes sense.) I'm also figuring the strip that went behind the head (or at least behind the ears) was pretty tight (at least that's what I get a sense of when reading it kept the mandible in place.

BUT, at the same time, I'm just pitching ideas out on what could have prevented fingerprints on the tape.

I think celtic makes a real good point that they haven't said definitively that KC's prints weren't found.

Devon said:

But doesn't chloroform burn the skin? I think if KC spilt it on herself she'd have been too busy jigging in pain to think about dealing with strips of duct tape! She also would probably have been feeling quite woozy as well!

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I don't think chloroform burns the skin in the sense of an immediate and painful burn. There is a delay between getting it on you and the effects becoming apparent, with the effects ranging from mild irritation to open sores.

Valhall said:

BUT, at the same time, I'm just pitching ideas out on what could have prevented fingerprints on the tape.

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Gardening gloves.

From the reading I have been doing on chloroform, it sounds like it depends on the ratio of combinations of chemicals, when combined, cause different reactions, ( some of which are highly combustible) and definitely toxic when inhaled. If for example the A's were trying to hide the smell with bleach & a combination of household cleaning agents, chloroform is created in some form. I was even wondering about them using the pool chlorine as part of the clean-up, with other cleaners, and unknowingly that was the result.
One example below ,of what I'm trying to say here:
http://www.newswiretoday.com/news/30848/
A number of commonly used household cleaning products (bleaches, mildew stain removers, toilet cleaners, cleaning sprays, gels, and scouring powders) contain sodium hypochlorite that is often accompanied by many other chemicals (e.g., surfactants and fragrances). Mixing bleach with ammonia-based cleaners results in formation of chloramines while mixing it with an acid-based cleaner will cause chlorine gas release. Therefore, the main concern associated with the use of chlorine-bleach-containing cleaning-products has been mixing them with other cleaning products that can generate hazardous fumes.

I'm speculating that Casey did NOT USE CHLOROFORM on Caylee, because, 1) it is quite difficult & expensive to obtain, 2) very difficult to store, (if stored improperly it melts it's container & then looses it's effectiveness due to the gases being released in combination with O2). & 3) & primarily, I think she was waaay too lazy to go to that much trouble when simple over the counter meds could have put her to sleep & worse in higher doses. M00

Chloroform is also found in many pesticides and it wouldn't surprise me if either KC, or one of the A's (when they retrieved the car), had tried to kill the bugs/flies by using some sort of product in one of their sprayers.

Devon said:

Chloroform is also found in many pesticides and it wouldn't surprise me if either KC, or one of the A's (when they retrieved the car), had tried to kill the bugs/flies by using some sort of product in one of their sprayers.

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Ah, that makes sense and is probably why LE took the pesticides in the search.

Devon said:

Chloroform is also found in many pesticides and it wouldn't surprise me if either KC, or one of the A's (when they retrieved the car), had tried to kill the bugs/flies by using some sort of product in one of their sprayers.

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I don't think Casey was making her own Chloroform either. The Chloroform thing has me stumped.

Some have said they thought Casey might have used chloroform on Caylee to "quiet" (and more) her in the bedroom the night of the fight. Is the smell of chloroform so strong that it would have drifted outside of the bedroom and alerted Cindy that something was going on? Just trying to go through a process of elimination to narrow my options as my mind seems to agree with almost everyone's theories . . . .

ExpectingUnicorns said:

Some have said they thought Casey might have used chloroform on Caylee to "quiet" (and more) her in the bedroom the night of the fight. Is the smell of chloroform so strong that it would have drifted outside of the bedroom and alerted Cindy that something was going on? Just trying to go through a process of elimination to narrow my options as my mind seems to agree with almost everyone's theories . . . .

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IMHO, after the huge fight between CA and KC, KC left in a rage, taking Caylee with her. While they were out of the house is when the chloroforming might have happened.
New thought -- what if KC then returned to the house in the wee morning hours (the pings don't prove she was at the A family home but nearby) with Caylee and put her on the bed. What if the next morning, KC revealed to GA or carried a blanketed Caylee out of the house in the presence of GA? Did GA know? Maybe Caylee was blanketed and that's why he could only see generally a pink top and guessed on the bluejean skort and not the white background striped shorts. That may be why he missed commenting on the lettering on the shirt if it could have been covered by a blanket. Just guessing as to a scenario that fits with the evidence. But, if the duct tape were applied before death, then the head/face would have been covered by the blanket.

celticthyme said:

Valhall,
I think this could be a possibility, but if you remember from the documents, the presence of prints of everyone from the family were excluded, except for Casey's, and I really think they do have her prints on the duct tape. I think this is one of the coffin nails, along with the multiple layers of tape covering both airways. ( my theory of her death is over on the theories # 5 thread)

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A fingerprints report would come from a different department of a forensics lab. That report may not be done yet.

I thought it might be worth listing all items that LE seized as part of the Dec. 11 search warrant that appear to be associated with either chloroform manufacture or some other form of drugging Caylee:

North shedScreened porch Guest/Office closet Garage-East wall Caylee's BDR-chest drawer Caylee's BDR-chest drawer South bath-medicine cabinet South shedThe "Clean Safe" dust remover is of interest because it shows up through Google searches as a rather dangerous recreational inhalant. It's material safety data sheet lists tetrafluorethane, inhalation of which is "extremely dangerous - intentional or deliberate inhalation may cause death without warning." Chloroform and acetone are not listed.

Not sure if LE thinks KC might have used it on Caylee to kill her, or if KC was a recreational user of the substance. :waitasec:

I am puzzled as to why the Zep was taken, as acetone is not listed as an ingredient, and it is not described as being particularly dangerous.

I have wanted to know for some time whether or not the high-levels of chloroform found in the trunk could have been formed as a result of a decomposing body that had drowned. :waitasec: As a result I decided to try a little experiment to see if I could make chloroform.

I referred to the sci-spot article on making chloroform to get a better understanding of what success would look like. Success would be a bunch of bubbles at the bottom of my "reaction vessel", looking not unlike tadpole eggs. :frog:

My goal, however, was not to duplicate the sci-spot experiment. It was to simulate the manufacture of "extra" chloroform produced by a drowning victim, in this case a small child.

Instead of using one cup of bleach like the experiment, I used 1000ml of swimming pool water. This is approximately four cups and looked like it was about the volume of water a small child's lungs would hold. I will mention that our swimming pool, while chlorinated, does not smell strongly of chlorine. It is possible (probably likely) the Anthony's pool contains more chlorine by volume than ours.

I searched for information on how much acetone is produced by a decomposing body, but could find no quantitative information. So I had to guess. :doh: I used 0.5 ml of fingernail polish remover, which I am guessing is about 60% acetone. Thus, my ratio of acetone to pool water was roughly 1 to 3000. Note that the sci-spot article suggested 1 to 50 for bleach and 1 to 25 for pool shock, so I was using a ratio two orders of magnitude lower than expected.

Results: after about 3 hours I saw maybe two-dozen small bubbles at the bottom of the "reaction vessel" that resembled the bubbles in the bubble mass on the sci-spot article. After stirring the mixture the bubbles did not "mass together" but they all did sink. My conclusion is that I did create chloroform as a byproduct of pool water and acetone...but I cannot prove I did.

Nor can I state how much was produced. :bang:

I did try to take pictures of the result, but could not get an image that clearly showed a bubble.

JWG said:

I have wanted to know for some time whether or not the high-levels of chloroform found in the trunk could have been formed as a result of a decomposing body that had drowned. :waitasec: As a result I decided to try a little experiment to see if I could make chloroform.

I referred to the sci-spot article on making chloroform to get a better understanding of what success would look like. Success would be a bunch of bubbles at the bottom of my "reaction vessel", looking not unlike tadpole eggs. :frog:

My goal, however, was not to duplicate the sci-spot experiment. It was to simulate the manufacture of "extra" chloroform produced by a drowning victim, in this case a small child.

Instead of using one cup of bleach like the experiment, I used 1000ml of swimming pool water. This is approximately four cups and looked like it was about the volume of water a small child's lungs would hold. I will mention that our swimming pool, while chlorinated, does not smell strongly of chlorine. It is possible (probably likely) the Anthony's pool contains more chlorine by volume than ours.

I searched for information on how much acetone is produced by a decomposing body, but could find no quantitative information. So I had to guess. :doh: I used 0.5 ml of fingernail polish remover, which I am guessing is about 60% acetone. Thus, my ratio of acetone to pool water was roughly 1 to 3000. Note that the sci-spot article suggested 1 to 50 for bleach and 1 to 25 for pool shock, so I was using a ratio two orders of magnitude lower than expected.

Results: after about 3 hours I saw maybe two-dozen small bubbles at the bottom of the "reaction vessel" that resembled the bubbles in the bubble mass on the sci-spot article. After stirring the mixture the bubbles did not "mass together" but they all did sink. My conclusion is that I did create chloroform as a byproduct of pool water and acetone...but I cannot prove I did.

Nor can I state how much was produced. :bang:

I did try to take pictures of the result, but could not get an image that clearly showed a bubble.

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Way cool! Dude.

I have had to remove myself from the chloroform debate, at least for a while.

I had come to an early conclusion that the issue was a 'red herring', or at least a bizarre coincidence, and since then I've detected such a huge confirmation bias in my own thinking that I can no longer respect my own opinions on the subject.

Keep plugging away. I'm following the entire topic with huge interest.

Valhall said:

Some one had asked a question in the thread discussing the results of the forensic report in relation to the duct tape of how KC could have handled multiple pieces of duct tape and not gotten one fingerprint on them. I'd like to throw something out in this thread and see what people think.

Assuming KC did mix up some quantity of chloroform (which I tend to believe she did) and then went about the dirty deed. She most likely would have just "winged it" as far as administering it. If she used it to knock Caylee out either to drown her (which I think may have been the case) or just to avoid struggling while she smothered her (either with something external or via the tape itself), maybe she way overdid it on the use of the chloroform. Really soaked something up good with it to where it was literally soaking wet. For the sake of consideration, she's got it all over her hands now, and maybe all over Caylee's face. Chloroform being one of the strongest solvents would have played hell with the duct tape sticking because it would have started dissolving the adhesive on contact. Are the multiple pieces of duct tape because of this? Because it wasn't sticking well? And did the chloroform keep KC from creating a good fingerprint? Because if her hands were literally wet with chloroform, I believe her fingers would have almost slid across the adhesive instead of sticking to it.

It's just a thought I had. I actually might have the means to test this via my chemist friend.

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What about KC's silver Tiffany ring? Could it have slid off? Could the metal have reacted with a chemical she used and was discolored so she tossed it?

Geez louise, maybe this belongs at the DP smoking gun thread, but maybe the ring slid off and was later found with the remains? Or in the trash bag with residue on it?

However, I do not know if they could have withheld the silver ring from these past evidence dumps if it was found at the scene.

FWIW, looks like chloroform can be used in photography as well, little Ms. KC's favorite hobby:

http://www.ci.tucson.az.us/arthazards/photo2.html

JWG said:

I have wanted to know for some time whether or not the high-levels of chloroform found in the trunk could have been formed as a result of a decomposing body that had drowned. :waitasec: As a result I decided to try a little experiment to see if I could make chloroform.

I referred to the sci-spot article on making chloroform to get a better understanding of what success would look like. Success would be a bunch of bubbles at the bottom of my "reaction vessel", looking not unlike tadpole eggs. :frog:

My goal, however, was not to duplicate the sci-spot experiment. It was to simulate the manufacture of "extra" chloroform produced by a drowning victim, in this case a small child.

Instead of using one cup of bleach like the experiment, I used 1000ml of swimming pool water. This is approximately four cups and looked like it was about the volume of water a small child's lungs would hold. I will mention that our swimming pool, while chlorinated, does not smell strongly of chlorine. It is possible (probably likely) the Anthony's pool contains more chlorine by volume than ours.

I searched for information on how much acetone is produced by a decomposing body, but could find no quantitative information. So I had to guess. :doh: I used 0.5 ml of fingernail polish remover, which I am guessing is about 60% acetone. Thus, my ratio of acetone to pool water was roughly 1 to 3000. Note that the sci-spot article suggested 1 to 50 for bleach and 1 to 25 for pool shock, so I was using a ratio two orders of magnitude lower than expected.

Results: after about 3 hours I saw maybe two-dozen small bubbles at the bottom of the "reaction vessel" that resembled the bubbles in the bubble mass on the sci-spot article. After stirring the mixture the bubbles did not "mass together" but they all did sink. My conclusion is that I did create chloroform as a byproduct of pool water and acetone...but I cannot prove I did.

Nor can I state how much was produced. :bang:

I did try to take pictures of the result, but could not get an image that clearly showed a bubble.

Click to expand...

JWG, I have to say I think your chloroform/pool water test is worth further study! What made you think of doing the test?
From the moment I learned the A's had a backyard pool I've thought she could have drowned which would explain, to me, why the A's stuck by KC. I've been around pools most of my life both as a competetive swimmer and lifeguard. It literally takes an INSTANT for a child to fall into a pool and only seconds for that child to panic and start to breathe and/or swallow water. There is also the possibility of a "dry drowning", when a persons' airway involuntarily closes in response to water in the mouth or throat resulting in little or no water in the lungs (my best recollection from a WSI course-feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). I'll try to find statistics for children that drown in pools and if I find the info I'll come back & add to this post (unless a WSer already has that info!)
I've put this possibility in the back of my mind partly because the chloroform didn't seem to fit but if your test shows a possible explanation then, well...!
I'm interested to see if there's any follow-up on your testing!

U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (2002):
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml04/04142.html


tragic article:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon.../stories/061809dnmetcoppelldrown.42c98ff.html

JWG said:

I have wanted to know for some time whether or not the high-levels of chloroform found in the trunk could have been formed as a result of a decomposing body that had drowned. :waitasec: As a result I decided to try a little experiment to see if I could make chloroform.

I referred to the sci-spot article on making chloroform to get a better understanding of what success would look like. Success would be a bunch of bubbles at the bottom of my "reaction vessel", looking not unlike tadpole eggs. :frog:

My goal, however, was not to duplicate the sci-spot experiment. It was to simulate the manufacture of "extra" chloroform produced by a drowning victim, in this case a small child.

Instead of using one cup of bleach like the experiment, I used 1000ml of swimming pool water. This is approximately four cups and looked like it was about the volume of water a small child's lungs would hold. I will mention that our swimming pool, while chlorinated, does not smell strongly of chlorine. It is possible (probably likely) the Anthony's pool contains more chlorine by volume than ours.

I searched for information on how much acetone is produced by a decomposing body, but could find no quantitative information. So I had to guess. :doh: I used 0.5 ml of fingernail polish remover, which I am guessing is about 60% acetone. Thus, my ratio of acetone to pool water was roughly 1 to 3000. Note that the sci-spot article suggested 1 to 50 for bleach and 1 to 25 for pool shock, so I was using a ratio two orders of magnitude lower than expected.

Results: after about 3 hours I saw maybe two-dozen small bubbles at the bottom of the "reaction vessel" that resembled the bubbles in the bubble mass on the sci-spot article. After stirring the mixture the bubbles did not "mass together" but they all did sink. My conclusion is that I did create chloroform as a byproduct of pool water and acetone...but I cannot prove I did.

Nor can I state how much was produced. :bang:

I did try to take pictures of the result, but could not get an image that clearly showed a bubble.

Click to expand...

JWG,

Thanks for sharing this and for taking the time. I'd like to share some calculations here so you can cross check me. This is an attempt to guesstimate how much chloroform they are saying was present in their testing and extrapolate it out for the entire trunk volume...just to get a feel for the volume of chloroform we might be talking about.

I couldn't find the exact specs on a 1998 Pontiac Sunfire, but from here

http://www.kbb.com/kbb/UsedCars/Spe...re_Trade-In_Excellent.aspx?SelectedTabIndex=1

I got 13.1 cu. ft of trunk space and I think it's probably close enough.

The report states the detected level of chloroform was in the "low parts per million", so for the sake of being conservative, I'm going with 1 ppm and then we can look at orders of magnitude increases to see if it means anything to us.

So we have 13.1 cu. ft. (.371 cu. m.) of air in the trunk with a density of about 1.25 kg/cu.m. This comes to .464 kg of air in the trunk.

The density of vaporized chloroform is 5.45 kg/cu. m. which brings us on a 1 ppm basis to 8.51 X 10-8 cu.m. of chloroform and with the listed density we have .0000851 L of vaporized chloroform.

We will assume all liquid chloroform vaporized so that the volume of liquid chloroform is on a 1 to 1 basis with our amount of vaporized chloroform.

So we had at one point .0000851 L of liquid chloroform. This is .003 ounces to get it into yankee terms. That's about a bubble's worth...snicker.

Okay, so at 10 ppm it would be .03 ounces and at 100 ppm .3 ounces and at 500 ppm (which is as high as we can go and stay in the "low ppm range" - and I personally would not describe this high of a level as "low parts per million" in a technical paper so I doubt they are talking much over 200 ppm) we get a whopping 1.5 ounces...that would be the volume of a shot glass.

Just wanted to throw this out to give an idea, based on the estimates in the forensic report, of how much chloroform we're talking about.

Not much...so your experiment with trying to create chloroform just off the reactions of the human body and chlorinated pool water may be very relevant.

P.S. I need to add a point of clarification on the calculations above. THEY AREN'T RIGHT! haha What I mean is they assume equal concentration of chloroform through-out the entire 13.1 cu. ft. of the trunk and this would not be the case.

Chloroform is 4.5 times heavier than air so the chloroform would have "fallen out" of the air and the highest concentration would be at the carpet level. Since the "low ppm" estimate in the forensic report is taken at the carpet level where the chloroform would have collected at a higher concentration, that means the actual amount of total chloroform in the overall volume of the trunk would come out much less than what I calculated.

So...the calcs are just to give a WORST CASE scenario on the volume of chloroform we're talking about.