Clever or Lucky?

Clever or Lucky


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MF, it might interest you to know that the leading cause of inflicted childhood fatalities is "toilet rage." Then again, it might not.

That tells me a lot. I don't find a child's death one bit fun.

No one is making fun of toilet rage except you. Well, in reality, what you do and have been doing for years is so much worse it is hard to find words to describe it. For you have preached to hell someone who killed, staged, tortured and worse to her child without any proof. You are expert in it, in fact. Then, to make matters worse, you play with cute little barbs to silence your critics. No problem, as long as you have an audience. Hell, the money isn't coming in like a book deal might, but as long as you have people eating out of your diseased hand sick nonsense, you are happy.

Anyone who bothers to look closely at your "quite extensive acknowledgment" and the years of continual disgusting claims you've hurled at this woman, will understand who it is making fun of tragedy.
 
MF, it might interest you to know that the leading cause of inflicted childhood fatalities is "toilet rage." Then again, it might not.
.

It would interest me to know the source of this information? Just guessing, but I'd say No 1 would be incessant crying and No 2 not eating would be the two top causes, but what would I know about kids?

That tells me a lot. I don't find a child's death one bit fun

Hip, hop, up you go. Onto your Moral Highground. Holier than though. You guys used to give me that a lot when I first started on this forum. In fact any amusement at all was frowned on, because of the seriousness of this subject.

You know, I don't suffer the pain day in day out that you do. I'm not in constant darkness, descending deeper and shunning the light.

I did enjoy trying to fit poor Mrs R into the scenario that RDI has made for her. The ideas just popping into her head and her constant up and down the stairs looking for equipment amused me no end. It is such a ridiculous idea I'm surprised you didn't get a slight smirk out of it as well.

As for the second (IDI) scenario, you will note that I didn't include the actual killing. This is a very sore subject and one that I have yet to come to terms with. That tipping over the edge into the abyss from which there is no return is, as you rightly say, very scary.
 
It would interest me to know the source of this information? Just guessing, but I'd say No 1 would be incessant crying and No 2 not eating would be the two top causes, but what would I know about kids?



Hip, hop, up you go. Onto your Moral Highground. Holier than though. You guys used to give me that a lot when I first started on this forum. In fact any amusement at all was frowned on, because of the seriousness of this subject.

You know, I don't suffer the pain day in day out that you do. I'm not in constant darkness, descending deeper and shunning the light.

I did enjoy trying to fit poor Mrs R into the scenario that RDI has made for her. The ideas just popping into her head and her constant up and down the stairs looking for equipment amused me no end. It is such a ridiculous idea I'm surprised you didn't get a slight smirk out of it as well.

As for the second (IDI) scenario, you will note that I didn't include the actual killing. This is a very sore subject and one that I have yet to come to terms with. That tipping over the edge into the abyss from which there is no return is, as you rightly say, very scary.

If you don't have kids, (and I assume that you don't by your comment) you have no idea how far they can push you. It can be tremendously frustrating and while I never inflicted corporal punishment, there were many times when I simply had to leave and turn away before I lost it.

I don't enjoy putting Patsy into any scenario, but she has to be considered (by me, anyway). And I don't believe she had to run up and down the stairs for "equipment". The tape, cord were probably already in the basement (a very likely place for such things) and the paint tote (including the brushes) were moved to the basement before the party on the 23rd. (according to Patsy and LHP). Patsy admitted in her interviews that the panties she was shown as being on her daughter were part of a set that she bought in Bloomingdale's as a gift for her niece when Patsy made a trip to NY before Christmas. The panty gift set was supposed to me mailed off before Christmas, but Patsy didn't get to it and was going to do it after she returned from the Disney cruise. The panties were already in the basement, too, as Patsy herself said she was wrapping gifts there. The flashlight was very likely carried upstairs after JB was put in the wineceller. The house would be dark, and the flashlight used to walk around ( a neighbor reported seeing a "strange, moving light" in the kitchen around midnight which seems exactly like someone walking around in the dark holding a flashlight. The R kitchen widow did not have a shade, blind or curtain that covered the window, only a small fabric valence at the top. So there really wasn't anything that Patsy needed to go upstairs for.

An intruder wouldn't have known about the panties being in the basement.
 
If you don't have kids, (and I assume that you don't by your comment) you have no idea how far they can push you. It can be tremendously frustrating and while I never inflicted corporal punishment, there were many times when I simply had to leave and turn away before I lost it.
Absolutely true, real life with a child is not like the idyllic portrayal you often see in shows and movies.
 
If you don't have kids, (and I assume that you don't by your comment) you have no idea how far they can push you. It can be tremendously frustrating and while I never inflicted corporal punishment, there were many times when I simply had to leave and turn away before I lost it.

I don't enjoy putting Patsy into any scenario, but she has to be considered (by me, anyway). And I don't believe she had to run up and down the stairs for "equipment". The tape, cord were probably already in the basement (a very likely place for such things) and the paint tote (including the brushes) were moved to the basement before the party on the 23rd. (according to Patsy and LHP). Patsy admitted in her interviews that the panties she was shown as being on her daughter were part of a set that she bought in Bloomingdale's as a gift for her niece when Patsy made a trip to NY before Christmas. The panty gift set was supposed to me mailed off before Christmas, but Patsy didn't get to it and was going to do it after she returned from the Disney cruise. The panties were already in the basement, too, as Patsy herself said she was wrapping gifts there. The flashlight was very likely carried upstairs after JB was put in the wineceller. The house would be dark, and the flashlight used to walk around ( a neighbor reported seeing a "strange, moving light" in the kitchen around midnight which seems exactly like someone walking around in the dark holding a flashlight. The R kitchen widow did not have a shade, blind or curtain that covered the window, only a small fabric valence at the top. So there really wasn't anything that Patsy needed to go upstairs for.

An intruder wouldn't have known about the panties being in the basement.

Unless the intruder was familiar with what was already there. LHP knew the contents of the dryer on the 25th.
 
If you don't have kids, (and I assume that you don't by your comment) you have no idea how far they can push you. It can be tremendously frustrating and while I never inflicted corporal punishment, there were many times when I simply had to leave and turn away before I lost it.

I don't enjoy putting Patsy into any scenario, but she has to be considered (by me, anyway). And I don't believe she had to run up and down the stairs for "equipment". The tape, cord were probably already in the basement (a very likely place for such things) and the paint tote (including the brushes) were moved to the basement before the party on the 23rd. (according to Patsy and LHP). Patsy admitted in her interviews that the panties she was shown as being on her daughter were part of a set that she bought in Bloomingdale's as a gift for her niece when Patsy made a trip to NY before Christmas. The panty gift set was supposed to me mailed off before Christmas, but Patsy didn't get to it and was going to do it after she returned from the Disney cruise. The panties were already in the basement, too, as Patsy herself said she was wrapping gifts there. The flashlight was very likely carried upstairs after JB was put in the wineceller. The house would be dark, and the flashlight used to walk around ( a neighbor reported seeing a "strange, moving light" in the kitchen around midnight which seems exactly like someone walking around in the dark holding a flashlight. The R kitchen widow did not have a shade, blind or curtain that covered the window, only a small fabric valence at the top. So there really wasn't anything that Patsy needed to go upstairs for.

An intruder wouldn't have known about the panties being in the basement.

All are saying this is horrible, absolutely unbelievably horrible. To make that point, some will expose the "impossible" train of thought P had to process to do what she's been accused of doing. In effect they are saying this is so sick, she wasn't capable of it. It doesn't make sense.

I have asked a proponent of the theory that she killed her daughter to explain why these otherwise loving people appeared less than overwhelmed with guilt when they discussed what happened. He squirms away with something like this, "an effort at 'Dissociation.'" I have pointed out that dissociation is not a mental condition one does to himself.

Look at these good, loving parents with no history of abuse and pretend they actually did these things. They are not struggling with guilty consciences. Further, it is inconceivable that they could fake guilt that well. Could we, any one of us, go on a nationally televised interview, having just done these things, and not crumble in disgrace?
 
]If you don't have kids, (and I assume that you don't by your comment) you have no idea how far they can push you. It can be tremendously frustrating and while I never inflicted corporal punishment, there were many times when I simply had to leave and turn away before I lost it.

No, you really shouldn't assume such things, it's just I wouldn't call myself an 'expert'. Yes, kids are frustrating, but this doesn't answer my question to SD, which was, where did you get this information and is it really accurate?

I don't enjoy putting Patsy into any scenario, but she has to be considered (by me, anyway). And I don't believe she had to run up and down the stairs for "equipment". The tape, cord were probably already in the basement (a very likely place for such things) and the paint tote (including the brushes) were moved to the basement before the party on the 23rd. (according to Patsy and LHP).

If it is as you say (not that I believe it), anyone familiar with the household would have know this.

Patsy admitted in her interviews that the panties she was shown as being on her daughter were part of a set that she bought in Bloomingdale's as a gift for her niece when Patsy made a trip to NY before Christmas. The panty gift set was supposed to me mailed off before Christmas, but Patsy didn't get to it and was going to do it after she returned from the Disney cruise. The panties were already in the basement, too, as Patsy herself said she was wrapping gifts there. An intruder wouldn't have known about the panties being in the basement.

If the panties were unwrapped in the basement, anyone could have seen and used them.

The flashlight was very likely carried upstairs after JB was put in the wineceller. The house would be dark, and the flashlight used to walk around ( a neighbor reported seeing a "strange, moving light" in the kitchen around midnight which seems exactly like someone walking around in the dark holding a flashlight. The R kitchen widow did not have a shade, blind or curtain that covered the window, only a small fabric valence at the top.

Yes, that old flashlight again. If it was PR she would have just turned on the lights in her own home. Somewhat less suspicious than walking around in the dark holding a flashlight. Are you suggesting she wrote the RN by the light of the flashlight?

So there really wasn't anything that Patsy needed to go upstairs for.

Well, not that I actually believe that it was used, but RDI does - the Swiss Army Knife. Didn't you contend that the tape was in the drawer upstairs (kitchen?) Wouldn't she have needed to go upstairs to get the flashlight? She was carrying an unconscious JBR (presumably wrapped in a blanket) to the basement, so wouldn't really have been able to open doors and carry all that stuff with her in one trip.
 
No, you really shouldn't assume such things, it's just I wouldn't call myself an 'expert'. Yes, kids are frustrating, but this doesn't answer my question to SD, which was, where did you get this information and is it really accurate?



If it is as you say (not that I believe it), anyone familiar with the household would have know this.



If the panties were unwrapped in the basement, anyone could have seen and used them.



Yes, that old flashlight again. If it was PR she would have just turned on the lights in her own home. Somewhat less suspicious than walking around in the dark holding a flashlight. Are you suggesting she wrote the RN by the light of the flashlight?



Well, not that I actually believe that it was used, but RDI does - the Swiss Army Knife. Didn't you contend that the tape was in the drawer upstairs (kitchen?) Wouldn't she have needed to go upstairs to get the flashlight? She was carrying an unconscious JBR (presumably wrapped in a blanket) to the basement, so wouldn't really have been able to open doors and carry all that stuff with her in one trip.

Hey Jerk a.k.a. SuperDuperDave,
Go through each one of these points that MF has made here. Not a passing condescending one-liner dismissal but honest to goodness detailed, comprehensive thorough explanations. You not only will not, you can not! That's the truth of all your B.S. Your barbs cover up your own ignorance and your inability to truly defend the bull-crap you shovel our way.

And, BTW, don't send your alter-egos under the guise of different usernames to do your dirty work. What an idiot!
 
There's that sarcasm again. Now that you have been crowned "Genius of the board" by WF, I guess it's gone to your head.
Do you feel it serves the purpose of our discourse here to make rude comments about posters who have different opinions? I don't.

DD, it sounds so much nicer the way you say it as opposed to how I would have said it.
 
No one is making fun of toilet rage except you.

How's that happen?

Well, in reality, what you do and have been doing for years is so much worse it is hard to find words to describe it.

Really? Would you like me to make a list of horrific things IDI has done to innocent people over the span? It's a LONG, shameful list.

For you have preached to hell someone who killed, staged, tortured and worse to her child without any proof.

Well, you're half-right.

Then, to make matters worse, you play with cute little barbs to silence your critics.

You mean like, "throwing stones in a glass house?" You're using a catapult at this point, friend.

No problem, as long as you have an audience. Hell, the money isn't coming in like a book deal might, but as long as you have people eating out of your diseased hand sick nonsense, you are happy.

I've heard all of that nonsense before, Fang. Even from people who should know better.
 
It would interest me to know the source of this information? Just guessing, but I'd say No 1 would be incessant crying and No 2 not eating would be the two top causes, but what would I know about kids?

Your wish is my command:

In the medical journal, Pediatrics.1999; 103: 1364-1366., an article titled, "Toilet Training Guidelines: CliniciansThe Role of the Clinician in Toilet Training" states:

"more child abuse occurs during toilet training than during any other developmental step..."

Also, The Child Abuse Prevention Council (CAPC) states:

"Head trauma is the leading cause of death in child abuse." CAPC further asserts that "child Death Review Teams in Colorado and Oregon have identified some "triggers" that occurred just before many children's death from abuse" Of the 4 listed triggers, the 3rd listed is "failed potty training."

Both of these can be accessed here:

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/Patsy Ramsey#BedWettingRageTheory

I couldn't tell you what the other two are. You may well be right.

Hip, hop, up you go. Onto your Moral Highground. Holier than though. You guys used to give me that a lot when I first started on this forum. In fact any amusement at all was frowned on, because of the seriousness of this subject.

I try not to make a habit of it. It's just spitting in the wind, anyway. I can see that now.

I'm not in constant darkness, descending deeper and shunning the light.

And for what it's worth, MF, I'm starting to think that it's wrong of me to keep asking people to do it.

I did enjoy trying to fit poor Mrs R into the scenario that RDI has made for her.

Whether you enjoyed it or not, speaking purely for myself, you fit "poor Mrs R" into the scenario that YOU made for her based on a distorted understanding of RDI.

The ideas just popping into her head and her constant up and down the stairs looking for equipment amused me no end. It is such a ridiculous idea I'm surprised you didn't get a slight smirk out of it as well.

I did! I laughed out loud when I read it. Though, probably for different reasons.

As for the second (IDI) scenario, you will note that I didn't include the actual killing. This is a very sore subject and one that I have yet to come to terms with. That tipping over the edge into the abyss from which there is no return is, as you rightly say, very scary.

You know, I may have to take some of it back. Maybe you DO understand.
 
I have asked a proponent of the theory that she killed her daughter to explain why these otherwise loving people appeared less than overwhelmed with guilt when they discussed what happened. He squirms away with something like this, "an effort at 'Dissociation.'"

"Squirm away," my fat Irish patoot.

I have pointed out that dissociation is not a mental condition one does to himself.

I don't know about that, Fang. But for now, let's say you're correct. Perhaps I chose my words poorly. Perhaps "suppression" would be a better word.
 
super, just list and explain in detail the samples that substantiate that you have "acknowledged quite extensively" the value of love as it pertains to this crime. Why haven't you done this? you made this assertion. I asked for proof. The "proof" you presented was proof you did not tell the truth. so go ahead and list and explain or admit you have not been honest.
 
Hey Jerk a.k.a. SuperDuperDave,

LOL! You know, most IDIs--at least the ones I've met--don't like the animosity they get from RDIs. Why, is beyond me. They've certainly done everything in their power to EARN it. I, OTOH, enjoy such ire precisely BECAUSE I've earned it.

Go through each one of these points that MF has made here. Not a passing condescending one-liner dismissal but honest to goodness detailed, comprehensive thorough explanations. You not only will not, you can not!

Just you WATCH me!

And, BTW, don't send your alter-egos under the guise of different usernames to do your dirty work.

I don't HAVE alter-egos OR different accounts, Fang. Apparently, as I found out today, that particular accusation has been leveled at me on other forums as well. And I'll tell you exactly what I told them:

PROVE that I do! Because if you can't, you might want to think about setting up a few alternate accounts of your own. You might NEED them.

What an idiot!

Took the words right out of my mouth.
 
"Squirm away," my fat Irish patoot.



I don't know about that, Fang. But for now, let's say you're correct. Perhaps I chose my words poorly. Perhaps "suppression" would be a better word.


I don't know about that, Fang. But for now, let's say you're correct. Perhaps I chose my words poorly. Perhaps "suppression" would be a better word.

that was far more than a poor choice of words, especially for someone who has made murderous charges against this family continuously for years. the question was how did they conceal their guilt after killing their child when they were on television? You answered, "dissociation." Now you answer, "perhaps suppression." Well now explain that, will you? Not with a trite dismissal. That's one of your biggest vulnerabilities. You dismiss, minimize, defer, ignore instead of backing up your intellectual arguments.
 
No, you really shouldn't assume such things, it's just I wouldn't call myself an 'expert'. Yes, kids are frustrating, but this doesn't answer my question to SD, which was, where did you get this information and is it really accurate?

As I said, from the journal "Pediatrics" and from the Child Abuse Prevention Center. Now, specifically, ST said in his deposition that the main proponent of the toilet rage murder scenario, was Richard Krugman, Dean of the University of Colorado Medical School. Take a look here:

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5858"]The Bonita Papers - Forums For Justice[/ame] about 7/8s down the page.

If it is as you say (not that I believe it), anyone familiar with the household would have know this.

That's true. The questions in my mind are: to what purpose? If it was a kidnapping for ransom, and it went wrong and JB ended up with a fractured skull, then why bother doing all of that stuff to her?

If the panties were unwrapped in the basement, anyone could have seen and used them.

If, yes. But were they in the basement? Wouldn't it make more sense to keep them in JB's room? That's the impression I always got: that they were found in an open pack in one of JB's dresser drawers. So, that raises some questions: did the person go back up after them? And if so, what for? And if they took them with JB down the stairs, why just that one pair?

Yes, that old flashlight again. If it was PR she would have just turned on the lights in her own home. Somewhat less suspicious than walking around in the dark holding a flashlight. Are you suggesting she wrote the RN by the light of the flashlight?

My questions are: was the flashlight even used? Moreover, being seen using a flashlight would only be more suspicious if someone were to actually see the beal of light moving around in the house. Whereas, turning on the lights would have been more noticable. As for what DD is suggesting, I'd have to wait for her response, just like you.

Well, not that I actually believe that it was used, but RDI does - the Swiss Army Knife. Didn't you contend that the tape was in the drawer upstairs (kitchen?) Wouldn't she have needed to go upstairs to get the flashlight? She was carrying an unconscious JBR (presumably wrapped in a blanket) to the basement, so wouldn't really have been able to open doors and carry all that stuff with her in one trip.

This is the pitfall of taking up Fang's challenge, since these questions were addressed to DD and she's the only one who knows the answers. So, I'll have to give it my best shot.

Didn't you contend that the tape was in the drawer upstairs (kitchen?)

I don't know about that. Speaking from experience, I keep mine on a peg over my dad's old workbench. That's where he kept his, so I figured if it ain't broke. But people do keep them in drawers, on top of cabinets, etc. It could have been upstairs. It might not have been.

Wouldn't she have needed to go upstairs to get the flashlight?

Possibly. Unless it was already in her pocket. I have a flashlight in the house, and that's a common place for it when I'm not using it but might have to take it out.

She was carrying an unconscious JBR (presumably wrapped in a blanket) to the basement, so wouldn't really have been able to open doors and carry all that stuff with her in one trip.

Hmm. I don't know about JB being wrapped in the blanket when she was taken down to the basement. My impression is that it was taken out down there and she was wrapped in it then. But you make a good point about not being able to carry all of that stuff in one trip, provided some of it wasn't already there. And it's possible that there were trips up and down, or a single trip, anyway. As for not being able to open a door, I'd say it's likely that all of the doors above the basement floor were already open. But there is evidence that JB was set down at one point in the basement (her urine on the floor just outside the room), so that might be the answer to that one.
 
super, just list and explain in detail the samples that substantiate that you have "acknowledged quite extensively" the value of love as it pertains to this crime. Why haven't you done this? you made this assertion. I asked for proof. The "proof" you presented was proof you did not tell the truth. so go ahead and list and explain or admit you have not been honest.

What would you LIKE, Fang? I've been here four years. I can't be expected to remember every word of every post I've ever written. Moreover, the proof I gave you in the form of that book snippet has made the round here before. Sophie's mother had the same issue you have, and when she read it, it changed her mind about me. Anyone can see I'm not motivated by hatred.

that was far more than a poor choice of words, especially for someone who has made murderous charges against this family continuously for years.

You'll have to explain that one to me.

the question was how did they conceal their guilt after killing their child when they were on television? You answered, "dissociation." Now you answer, "perhaps suppression." Well now explain that, will you? Not with a trite dismissal.

Well, it's a fairly common occurrence for a person to repress painful memories. I use the example of my father and uncle, who served in Vietnam. They actively tried to forget the things they had seen and done there, an action which was encouraged by the government. In this particular instance, Dr. Anthony Pietropinto, a NY psychoanalyst, has said that often, it becomes a cycle of denial, each step reinforcing another. Our friend HOTYH has used the term "circular reasoning," and that's a good description for it. In this instance it would go something like this:

This isn't me--I couldn't have done this--they haven't arrested me--if they haven't arrested me, they must not have any evidence--if they have no evidence, then I couldn't have done it--if I didn't do it, then I'm innocent--if I'm innocent, why are they picking on me?

That's one of your biggest vulnerabilities. You dismiss, minimize, defer, ignore instead of backing up your intellectual arguments.

I've been here four years, Fang. I know all about dismissal, minimization and ignorance. I've certainly been subjected to enough of it. I'm burned out by it. That's why I'm like I am. Just in the time you've been here, I've made several attempts at honest, intellectual conversation and debate, and in each case my hopes were dashed.
 
SuperDave;5355071]What would you LIKE, Fang? I've been here four years. I can't be expected to remember every word of every post I've ever written. Moreover, the proof I gave you in the form of that book snippet has made the round here before. Sophie's mother had the same issue you have, and when she read it, it changed her mind about me. Anyone can see I'm not motivated by hatred.

Are you serious? Don't answer. That was rhetorical. I found nothing about parent-child bonding, parental instincts to protect, the strongest form of love known to exist on earth, that to continue in their lies without ever displaying the kind of grief or shame the woman you describe in your snippet would experience...I shouldn't have to teach you this.

I never suggested your love was the main issue. I spoke of love as a component of this tragedy. It is a huge factor and it doesn't exist in your mind and that is scary, very scary, truly. The fact that you don't get that is very scary too. However, it helps to explain why you buy into utter nonsense. Let me add, not everyone who believes as you do has this problem. But, you do.

And even when you try to defend yourself by insisting that you have acknowledged the importance of love in this matter, you miss the point by a mile. What you prefer, is to argue your way through your dilemma.

For example, how weak is this? "I can't be expected to remember every word of every post...." Please SD, how pathetic is that? No one asked you to. You defended yourself by claiming how extensively you embraced and referenced "love."
You shouldn't have to try to find examples, not if it is really true. Your ability to express your belief should flow from your keyboard as easily as the junk you peddle as evidence for your theory.

Well, it's a fairly common occurrence for a person to repress painful memories.

Of course it is. No one can deny that with a straight face. But this is a bit like how polys work, supposedly. No matter how hard we try to suppress painful thoughts and memories, no one can do what you say they did unless they are sick. Plus, it is the last thing a person wants to do; That is, engage in a discussion in front of millions of people to rehash what they are desperately trying not to think about.

And circular reasoning is different than repression of memories.

Don't confuse this either. Just because someone wants to suppress his memories, doesn't mean he will be able to, especially when guilt, real guilt for a killing and a cover-up of her helpless child took place.

If you cannot address these facts honestly and legitimately, please don't respond at all.
 
As I said, from the journal "Pediatrics" and from the Child Abuse Prevention Center. Now, specifically, ST said in his deposition that the main proponent of the toilet rage murder scenario, was Richard Krugman, Dean of the University of Colorado Medical School. Take a look here:

I will look this up then and try to confirm that bedwetting is the No 1 cause of parents murdering their children.
Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
MF, it might interest you to know that the leading cause of inflicted childhood fatalities is "toilet rage." Then again, it might not.
.
Is this what you contend?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this an unpublished book written by a secretary in a legal firm? And are you using this as evidence to back up what you have said about the toilet issue?

That's true. The questions in my mind are: to what purpose? If it was a kidnapping for ransom, and it went wrong and JB ended up with a fractured skull, then why bother doing all of that stuff to her?

There was IMO no kidnapping as such, just a 'simulation' of a kidnapping. Hide her under the house, don't ask too much money, make over the top threats, get the cash quick and then let them know where she's hidden.

What went wrong, is that the wrong person was left to mind her. Here's where I descend into the abyss. It's very dark down here and hard to see exactly what's happened. I think that substance (alcohol and or drug) induced psychosis might feature. Scary stuff and without logic or reason. In an interesting way, its a little like what RDI tries to put on PR!


If, yes. But were they in the basement? Wouldn't it make more sense to keep them in JB's room? That's the impression I always got: that they were found in an open pack in one of JB's dresser drawers. So, that raises some questions: did the person go back up after them? And if so, what for? And if they took them with JB down the stairs, why just that one pair?

I was working on the assumption that they were supposed to have been left in the winecellar awaiting wrapping? I'm not even sure this bloomies thing is genuine. Was it ever proved that she had on knickers that were too large and were meant for a gift for someone? I get the feeling it's just another false lead. Perhaps you can clarify?

My questions are: was the flashlight even used? Moreover, being seen using a flashlight would only be more suspicious if someone were to actually see the beal of light moving around in the house. Whereas, turning on the lights would have been more noticable. As for what DD is suggesting, I'd have to wait for her response, just like you.

OK we wait.

This is the pitfall of taking up Fang's challenge, since these questions were addressed to DD and she's the only one who knows the answers. So, I'll have to give it my best shot.



I don't know about that. Speaking from experience, I keep mine on a peg over my dad's old workbench. That's where he kept his, so I figured if it ain't broke. But people do keep them in drawers, on top of cabinets, etc. It could have been upstairs. It might not have been.


Possibly. Unless it was already in her pocket. I have a flashlight in the house, and that's a common place for it when I'm not using it but might have to take it out.

The flashlight was supposedly kept in the drawer near the kitchen.

The Swiss Army Knife was in the closet on the same level as the childrens bedrooms.

Hmm. I don't know about JB being wrapped in the blanket when she was taken down to the basement. My impression is that it was taken out down there and she was wrapped in it then. But you make a good point about not being able to carry all of that stuff in one trip, provided some of it wasn't already there. And it's possible that there were trips up and down, or a single trip, anyway. As for not being able to open a door, I'd say it's likely that all of the doors above the basement floor were already open. But there is evidence that JB was set down at one point in the basement (her urine on the floor just outside the room), so that might be the answer to that one.

Yeah, I don't know who started the thing about the blanket being in the dryer in the basement, perhaps LHP. PR seemed to think it looked (in the bad photo she was shown) like the blanket from JBRs bed, which was a cotton open weave.

I've also been under the impression that it was concluded (by whom I don't know?) that she was actually killed where the urine stain was. Then taken into the winecellar. Perhaps that isn't true either.
 
Your wish is my command:

In the medical journal, Pediatrics.1999; 103: 1364-1366., an article titled, "Toilet Training Guidelines: CliniciansThe Role of the Clinician in Toilet Training" states:

"more child abuse occurs during toilet training than during any other developmental step..."

I can't access this site.

Also, The Child Abuse Prevention Council (CAPC) states:

"Head trauma is the leading cause of death in child abuse." CAPC further asserts that "child Death Review Teams in Colorado and Oregon have identified some "triggers" that occurred just before many children's death from abuse" Of the 4 listed triggers, the 3rd listed is "failed potty training."
"Head trauma is the leading cause of child abuse death among babies. The 100% preventable Shaken Baby Syndrome is a major cause of death, where 25% of victims die and the majority of survivors suffer brain damage. "

Yeah, another quote from a reliable source, cropped to change it's meaning to support your RDI case. Head trauma by shaking is a bit different to being bashed and strangled.


Links don't work.

I couldn't tell you what the other two are. You may well be right.

Well, I'll see if I can find out.


I did! I laughed out loud when I read it. Though, probably for different reasons.

I thought you said it wasn't funny?


You know, I may have to take some of it back. Maybe you DO understand.

Yep, maybe I do.
 

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