Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, 43, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 - #9

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
Kay-ce said:
I heard that too, he also apparently kept saying he had sore ribs, but they couldn't find much wrong with him, perhaps trying to blame the scratch marks on the 'accident' .
Click to expand...

I have seen air bag break nose when deployed in an accident. It doesn't just pop out.:moo:
 
Hawkins said:
A case which is based largely or exlcusively on circumstantial evidence is much more difficult for prosecutors. If there is insufficient direct evidence (such as DNA, eye witnesses, finger prints, CCTV footage) to convince the DPP that there is a good chancce to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt then a trial will not take place. It may well costs ,illions of dollars and if unsuccessful will generally mean that the accused person(s) cannot be charged again. Where a person is charged solely on the basis of circumstantial evidence a jury must be convinced that the only expalanation consistent with that evidence is the guilt of the person charged. Circumstantial evidence is rarely that strong. It wll often be enough to make it highly likely that the accused committed the offence and be enough to make them liable for civil action, and to make them guilty in the eyes of the media and public. If the accused is acquitted in such circumstances then the very media outlets and public who demanded quick, and often premature, action will be out for the prosecution's blood.
Click to expand...

Keep up the good work Hawkins. I love your posts. Clearly you are involved in CL in some capacity. In South Australia we have living amongst us the infamous Gordon Wood. I saw him recently at a shopping centre. He was originally convicted largely on circumstantial evidence it it ultimately proved unsafe as it was overturned on appeal.
The COPO however doesn't forget that easily. I was watching the dynamics of people walking past him and it was immediately apparent that they recognised his face. That is something that is not going to go away easily. I personally think he was lucky in his appeal. I do think he is the perp (having read all of the publicly available evidence)
This is a long way of saying that if GBC is the perp and the evidence is circumstantial and the DPP cannot mount a sufficiently robust case against him, he maybe lucky in dodging a bullet, but he won't easily be able to hide. IMO.
 
Bayside said:
People are only human and people blab, even cops.
Click to expand...

yeah blabbing Ambo probably said to mate something along the lines of..'you tell anyone this and I'll have ya guts for garters!!!'... but as you say, some people just love to be the one who has the interesting 'news' to relate!

Just human nature. We can't help ourselves.
 
does anyone else think allisons eyes look incredibly sad in this photo?
as though she has a broken heart and has suffered for years but holding it all together.
her girls would have been such a source of happiness for her
i cant copy and paste the photo but here is the link to it. it has been used a lot by the press, maybe it was the most recent photo of her given by the family to the police/press
http://www.optuszoo.com.au/news/top/perth-now/hundreds-farewell-allison-baden-clay/665713
 
Just to keep my sanity somewhat (and maybe make it less painful for Kimster and Nurse Bee) I have made a chronology of what I think we know definitely (ie that can be substantiated by either the police, public statements by friends and or other links)
Please feel free to add subtract or correct.

April 19
-GBC was due to attend Kenmore CC meeting at 7 am. No conformation if he attended.
-around 9 am GBCmade purchase at chemist. Chemist made statement to police
-Cross country race atchildren's school at which both GBCand ABCattended
- ABC goes to hairdresser stating that she has the night off as children are at sleepover 'hairdresser interviewed by police.
- ABC speaks to best friend over phone and says she will drop in on Friday after Pathways conference
-10 pm Argument overheard by neighbours, scream and muffled scream heard, dog barking loudly

April 20
-witness sees two 4wds, one white and smaller blue one , white one with parking lights, bluenose full lights, at around 4am near Anstead 2 km from Kholo Creek Bridge
- 7.30 am GBC reports ABC missing to police
-police declare crime scene and impound both vehicles
-GBC engages lawyer
- GBC observed with scratches to face and torso

April 22
- GBCcrashes friend's car

April 23
Police declare GBC a POI along with a number of other people close to the couple

April 24
Heavy rain Greater Brisbane area

April 22- 25
-GBC engages barrister

April 25
- police spent 4 hrs interviewing a woman believed to be a former colleague of GBC. This woman subsequently hires a lawyer
- Police are urging anyone who saw the family cars if ABC and GBC on the night she vanished to come forward

April 26
Police search a house in Durness St Kenmore and executed a search warrant at a business.

April 30-now
-body of Allison found near Kholo Creek bridge on bank
- police keep asking anyone who saw anything suspicious near roundabout between 11 pm on April 19 and 4.30 am April 20 to contact them.
-Police say Allison knew her killer and possibly had an accomplice.
On 5 May police say that they now know that ABC was murdered before her body was dumped in a creek

Re mobile phone, it was reported that the mobile phone,which disappeared when ABC did, eventually ran flat however, before it did, police were able to triangulate it narrowing the location to Brookfield, Kenmore and Pullenvale.

Thank you to everyone who commented, greaat collective effort, but I will take individual responsibility for any mistakes and will try and correct!'
 
Hawkins said:
There are generally seven ways in which a person may be held criminally responsible for an offence in Qld. Five of those appear most relevant to this alleged homicide. The Criminal Code provides that when an offence (such as murder) is committed, any and all of the following people may be charged with the murder:
The person(s) who actually committed the murder
Any person who aided the principal offender
Any person who enabled the principal offender to commit the offence
Any person who counselled the principal offender to commited the offence
Any person who procured the principal offender to commited the offence

An aider is usually physically present when the murder is carried out. They could hold the victim down or restrain them. They could simply be physically present and by that presence give encouragment and tacit support to the actual killer.

An enabler is not usually present at the time of the murder, but does something which helps the principal offender. They might provide the weapon, keep a lookout, clean up the scene, lure the victim to the murder location etc.

A counsellor is a person who advises the principal offender to carry out the murder and may offer advice as to how to carry it out.

A procurer is a person who obtains the assistance of another person to do the actual killing.

If investigators come across a fact and evidentiary scenario in which a number of these heads of complicity may be involved, then the investigation can be very complex and demanding in terms of time and resources. Witness statements, direct evidence and circumstantial evidence must all be collated and cross-checked and any inconsistencies resolved before charges are laid. If more than one offender is to be charged with the offence then the subsequent trials will usually be held concurrently. That is there will be a single court trial in which all those charged will appear in the dock at the same time, usually represented by separate lawyers, or at least separate barristers. Such a trial can be very demanding on all involved and the prosecution team will need a significant amount of time to prepare, as will the defence. The potential for errors and ommissions is significant.

Once a single person is charged, the dynamcis of the investigation become much narrower as all those who may be potentially charged are put in 'lock-down' by their own lawyers and the process becomes slower and more demanding still. Multiple lawyers with significant eperience will be watching for every potential breach of procedure and of the laws of evidence.
Click to expand...
HAWKINS: Thank you for bridging our gaps in knowledge again. Timely and constructive.
It helps us to understand the 'complexity' of legal process much better.
 
ActusReus said:
An interesting case in Tasmania recently may convince prosecutors to rely on circumstantial evidence more than they have in the past. The jury in R v Blyth Neill-Fraser convicted the defendent without a body or forensic evidence. The verdict was subsequently upheld by the Court of Criminal Appeal. Whilst not binding in Queensland, the decision of the CCA could have significant impact on cases such as this one , where circumstantial evidence may be heavily relied upon. IMO
Click to expand...

Have you been following the Singh murders case. Defence only needs to create "reasonable doubt".:banghead:
 
xfiles said:
I think I've read every post on here over the past few days and now find myself checking this thread before my emails :)

Are you allowed to post on gossip ?? If not please feel free to remove this as I am not sure on what is allowed.

a) ABC was found with hand/s missing (info from Brookfield resident)
b) ABC was having an affair. Her husband had been doing the same for years. (this info was from a friend of her family)

If you go to youtube and watch the interview of him with the media where his sister is standing beside him you will notice that he shakes his head in a NO manner whilst saying
"helped the police as much as he can" which suggests to me that he knows more than he is willing to share and is blatantly lying. His sister is also biting her lower lip which suggests being nervous. And the "Thankyou, I'm sorry" comment, this made me feel uncomfortable.

His family has not shown any signs of distress, well anything that has been captured by the media either through photos or video footage.

And whats with that big pash by the inlaws NBC and EBC ????
Click to expand...

Yes, I had heard about (b) when she first went missing. Don't know if it's true - don't know if we'll ever know!
 
bearbear said:
does anyone else think allisons eyes look incredibly sad in this photo?
as though she has a broken heart and has suffered for years but holding it all together.
her girls would have been such a source of happiness for her
i cant copy and paste the photo but here is the link to it. it has been used a lot by the press, maybe it was the most recent photo of her given by the family to the police/press
http://www.optuszoo.com.au/news/top/perth-now/hundreds-farewell-allison-baden-clay/665713
Click to expand...


NO, she just looks older than all the other wedding/engagement/earlier photos we have seen in the press.
 
Rational said:
Just to keep my sanity somewhat (and maybe make it less painful for Kimster and Nurse Bee) I have made a chronology of what I think we know definitely (ie that can be substantiated by either the police, public statements by friends and or other links)
Please feel free to add subtract or correct.

April 19
-GBC was due to attend Kenmore CC meeting at 7 am. No conformation if he attended.
-around 9 am GBCmade purchase at chemist. Chemist made statement to police
-Cross country race atchildren's school at which both GBCand ABCattended
- ABC goes to hairdresser statingthat'shehas night off as children are at sleepover 'hairdresser interviewed by police.
- ABC speaks to best friend over phone and says she will drop in on Friday after Pathways conference
-10 pm Argument overheard by neighbours, scream and muffled scream heard, dog barking loudly

April 20
-witness sees two 4wds, one white and smaller blue one , white one with parking lights, bluenose full lights, at around 4am near Anstead 2 km from Kholo Creek Bridge
- 7.30 am GBC reports ABC missing to police
-police declare crime scene and impound both vehicles
-GBC engages lawyer
- GBC observed with scratches to face and torso
April 22
- GBCcrashes friend's car

April 22- 25
-GBC engages solicitor
- female colleague engages lawyer

April 30-now
- police keep asking anyone who saw anything suspicious near roundabout between 11 pm on April 19 and 4.30 am April 20 to contact them.
Click to expand...

Rational this is an excellent post! Thank you.

What about inserting the statements that QPS have made about:

1. An accomplice to the murderer

2. Allison probably knew her killer

I cannot remember the exacts dates these two bits of info were released.
 
Karo said:
If any Qld ambo relayed that info to anyone else, they would surely lose their job. They are bound by strict rules.
Click to expand...

True...

It seems we have had 'info' from many sources - including police, forensics, lawyers etc. It's human nature - people talk. I talk to others about my work, and people I deal with, but I am very careful - they may 'know someone who knows someone' and 'deduce' who I am talking about. It is hard to bottle things in that have been said to you.

Even the media seem to jumble things a little!

All our speculation as to what may have happened is great - we just want to see the person that has done this brought to justice.

But, at the end of the day the only information that I view as 100% correct, and factual are the words that come out of DS Mark Ainsworth's mouth ( in fact, if he was a politician, I'd vote for him!!) or any of his colleagues mouth's.
 
Maxymoo said:
I have seen air bag break nose when deployed in an accident. It doesn't just pop out.:moo:
Click to expand...

True, but it also depends on your hight and the way your sitting and the seats. When I had a car accident, my airbag deployed, hit me straight in the chest I had serious bruising for weeks, it also cut one of my wrists. If I was shorter, perhaps it would of hit me in the face?
 
543 said:
Can we concentrate a bit on about how Allison's phone is missing. Surely, a phone is missing because it fell, was thrown, was stolen, or something else. Now, why, oh why would it be left on?
This is a SUPER CRITICAL point that keeps the husband out of it & I'm pretty positive that QPS thinks exactly the same thing as I do. So how about all of us put our theories forward to help them out....because some of you are really very clever.
The phone: Was still on, not in water, was in the area of Brookfield/Pullenvale. So, my theory is that it fell when she had been tackled or run over and that the person who did that to her didn't even notice that she had a phone on her....probably he went back to look for it and can't find it either. So, if you see a car stopping at the side of the road looking for something or someone in a park looking for something....could be the person you're looking for and near the spot where Allison went missing/was run over on her walk!
The missing phone also discounts any theory of suicide- because the phone would be wet if she jumped from a bridge and would not work...........& I'd like to see what forensics come up with!!
Click to expand...

Hey 543, maybe whoever it was just didn't think to switch it off. Maybe they couldn't switch it off because they didn't know her iPhone pin. I dont see how having it on or off points at possible suspects either way- there's loads of explanations why it would be left on.
 
Maxymoo said:
I have seen air bag break nose when deployed in an accident. It doesn't just pop out.:moo:
Click to expand...

I am very, very little - need a cushion to reach pedals in car; I sit so close to the wheel I have been told that if the airbag pops out -it may kill me? Is that true?

Oh - just for my information - not suggesting it was an attempt of 'suicide by airbag!'
 
Hawkins said:
A case which is based largely or exlcusively on circumstantial evidence is much more difficult for prosecutors. If there is insufficient direct evidence (such as DNA, eye witnesses, finger prints, CCTV footage) to convince the DPP that there is a good chancce to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt then a trial will not take place. It may well costs ,illions of dollars and if unsuccessful will generally mean that the accused person(s) cannot be charged again. Where a person is charged solely on the basis of circumstantial evidence a jury must be convinced that the only expalanation consistent with that evidence is the guilt of the person charged. Circumstantial evidence is rarely that strong. It wll often be enough to make it highly likely that the accused committed the offence and be enough to make them liable for civil action, and to make them guilty in the eyes of the media and public. If the accused is acquitted in such circumstances then the very media outlets and public who demanded quick, and often premature, action will be out for the prosecution's blood.
Click to expand...
HAWKINS: We wish to avoid premature action. Many would like to see Justice done and the perpetrator(s) successfully convicted and sentenced. We do not want millions of dollars wasted and the work of many detectives, police officers, forensic investigators etc wasted.
Your post helps us to understand that public calls for premature action could jeopardize the outcome. Wise words indeed. Thank you.
 
Maxymoo said:
Have you been following the Singh murders case. Defence only needs to create "reasonable doubt".:banghead:
Click to expand...

Not in great detail. The Neill-Fraser case caught many by surprise and since the unsuccessful appeal, has precipitated a number of arrests in previous colds cases. Tas Pol have stated that they have greater confidence to lay charges in cases based largely on circumstantial evidence.

Time will tell if juries in other jurisdictions follow this trend by giving greater weight to circumstantial evidence.

MOO is that there is insufficient evidence of this trend across the other states. Hence the apparent reluctance of QPS to lay charges at this stage.
 
Rational said:
Just to keep my sanity somewhat (and maybe make it less painful for Kimster and Nurse Bee) I have made a chronology of what I think we know definitely (ie that can be substantiated by either the police, public statements by friends and or other links)
Please feel free to add subtract or correct.

April 19
-GBC was due to attend Kenmore CC meeting at 7 am. No conformation if he attended.
-around 9 am GBC made purchase at chemist. Chemist made statement to police
-Cross country race atchildren's school at which both GBC and ABC attended
- ABC goes to hairdresser stating that'shehas night off as children are at sleepover 'hairdresser interviewed by police.
- ABC speaks to best friend over phone and says she will drop in on Friday after Pathways conference
-10 pm Argument overheard by neighbours, scream and muffled scream heard, dog barking loudly

April 20
-witness sees two 4wds, one white and smaller blue one , white one with parking lights, bluenose full lights, at around 4am near Anstead 2 km from Kholo Creek Bridge
- 7.30 am GBC reports ABC missing to police
-police declare crime scene and impound both vehicles
-GBC engages solicitor
- GBC observed with scratches to face and torso
April 22
- GBCcrashes friend's car

April 22- 25
-GBC engages barrister
- female colleague engages lawyer



April 30-now
- police keep asking anyone who saw anything suspicious near roundabout between 11 pm on April 19 and 4.30 am April 20 to contact them.
Click to expand...

Heavy rain Brisbane 28/4/2012

30/4/2012 Body found at Kholo Creek Thanks again


Thank you so much for this - tried to do something similar last night but got too tired
 
Kay-ce said:
True, but it also depends on your hight and the way your sitting and the seats. When I had a car accident, my airbag deployed, hit me straight in the chest I had serious bruising for weeks, it also cut one of my wrists. If I was shorter, perhaps it would of hit me in the face?
Click to expand...

Just saying he would have very sore ribs from air bag and cuts scratches are possible. I have also seen people have an alergic reaction to the powder that comes out. It wouldn't be unusual to get someone to take their shirt off to examine them at the scene in this type of accident.:moo:
 
543 said:
Can we concentrate a bit on about how Allison's phone is missing. Surely, a phone is missing because it fell, was thrown, was stolen, or something else. Now, why, oh why would it be left on?
This is a SUPER CRITICAL point that keeps the husband out of it & I'm pretty positive that QPS thinks exactly the same thing as I do. So how about all of us put our theories forward to help them out....because some of you are really very clever.
The phone: Was still on, not in water, was in the area of Brookfield/Pullenvale. So, my theory is that it fell when she had been tackled or run over and that the person who did that to her didn't even notice that she had a phone on her....probably he went back to look for it and can't find it either. So, if you see a car stopping at the side of the road looking for something or someone in a park looking for something....could be the person you're looking for and near the spot where Allison went missing/was run over on her walk!
The missing phone also discounts any theory of suicide- because the phone would be wet if she jumped from a bridge and would not work...........& I'd like to see what forensics come up with!!
Click to expand...

I'm glad you brought that up 543. The 'loss' of the phone has been troubling me too, so it's good to have a chance to re-explore that.

I can think of two possible scenarios for losing the phone, whilst it remains switched on, that involve a killer known to Allison. They are based on the triangulation reports of the phones location being within 150m of the Baden-Clay residence. Maps indicate this means the phone is on their property or an immediately neighbouring one, not down the road any great distance on a suggested walking route.

1) ABC is involved in a confrontation at home which leads her to fear for her safety. She runs out into the darkness with her phone to attempt a 000 call. She keeps as quiet as possible (no screaming) to avoid being found. The killer finds her easily by the light of the iPhone screen, snatches the phone and throws it away whilst muffling/strangling ABC.

2) ABC is involved in a confrontation at home, resulting in her death. The killer plants the phone nearby, leaving it switched on knowing it would be triangulated to the local area, to ADD credence to the 'Allison went for a walk' story.

Possible reasons for phone to remain missing
A hand & knee search of the area was carried out but was apparently fruitless. Did this include metal detector sweep of every inch? I don't know, perhaps unlikely - does anyone know? Regardless there are three possible reasons for it to remain missing:

1) phone was simply missed during search due to human error
2) search zone based on triangulation data was too narrow
3) phone was buried or planted in an inaccessible place

I'll share a failed 000 call story with you all in my next post - which could explain attempts at dialing 000 that never connect and are not recorded, even on the phone itself. This very situation happened to me a week ago.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is Escambia County John Doe (1989)?

Members online

... and 152 more.
Total: 3,379 (members: 153, guests: 3,226)

Online statistics

Members online
153
Guests online
3,226
Total visitors
3,379
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
591,842
Messages
17,959,882
Members
228,622
Latest member
crimedeepdives23
Back
Top