Weekend Discussion thread 04/21-24/2012

roseofsharon · Apr 22, 2012

I haven't heard any. Children who are being babysat, don't usually have to hide under a coat.

Why drive a child your travel companion is supposed to be babysitting up a road off the beaten path. TLM supposedly wanting to talk to TS, you can do that anywhere, at the side of a highway.

Why not park right at the school to pick TS up if TLM said she was babysitting.

After hearing the testimony last week, IMO MTR is capable of anything.

The alleged comment about TS not being young enough, imo speaks volumes as to what was really going on between MTR and TLM, however, by the time TS was pushed into MTR's vehicle, their goose was cooked, as if they let TS go, she would have told TM about this incident of being in his car and that would have opened everything up regarding MTR and his activities, as well as TLM and put her in even more trouble. LE would have been involved.

IMO, MTR and TLM planned between the two of them to abduct a very young girl for their nefarious purposes and then release her.

IMO, MTR did not want to waste an opportunity regardless of age, so therefore, decided in Guelph, to purchase hammer and bags, as a decision was made between MTR and TLM that they would have a pact and TS would not be going home, as she would have been able to describe and identify them as the perps.

Just MOO.

Tahorn · Apr 22, 2012

snoofer said:
hmmm and i will give him the opportunity but i wouldn't like to

Agreed, after all for three years i believed he was not only guilty of the worse possible crime, (ever parents nightmare) ... but also of taking advantage of a poor, naive teenager just looking for love.

But now I know have doubts, and that things may not be as the first seemed to be ...

Maybe I am just hoping that VS wasn't sexual assaulted in her last hour ... In a way it may give a little peace to her family ... or at least I pray it would.

crazyladi · Apr 22, 2012

Flowercb said:
I just saw an ad for Plenty of Fish on another site. The owner said that they are responsible for 800,000 relationships. What he (the owner Markus) didn't say was they were all with MTR. lol. JMO.

Haha I needed a good laugh

Ardy · Apr 22, 2012

snoofer said:
yes i find that strange, would love to hear LE take on that. However, MTR lawyer suggested he DID clean up crime scene, not a big leap to think car was cleaned too, as crown has shown some hinky stuff going on with car through the trial. JMO

if we could find out exactly what part he mouthed that at. moo

I would like to know when LE decided to stop looking for the car wash.

It has been three years and they certainly could have checked every single car wash/convenience store in the area.

They could easily have contacted all the people who deliver the bundles of papers to the stores and showed them the drawings.

I can't think of any reason LE would stop looking for it.........unless they concluded it doesn't exist and TLM made it up.

That would question her memory of the events and truthfulness of her statements though.

Perhaps the defense will be asking LE those questions directly?

They really can't just leave it at .............we couldn't find it..........could they?

JMO...........

robynhood · Apr 22, 2012

flipflop said:
No evidence, I believe it was Dirk that stated the babysitting idea???? What evidence could there be to prove this???

We will have to wait and see ...IMO the defense is not very strong in their cross exam of what the CROWN persented ...personally I am not sure if I can stomach what is about to happen as far as the defense....IMO ...and again >>>>>>>>>

IMO ..rafferty was involved in traffic of oxy ,perk pills ...does not take a lot of common sense to explain buying a whole bag of 300 pills and than was back for more the witness testified ...IMO ...I strongly do not believe that Tori's mom had anything to do with this tho nor do I believe that in ANY WAY she would use TLM as a baby sitter ! ....IMO ...personally I feel Rafferty as a perv and he did rape Tori( Hard to even type this atrocity ) ...Do Not understand at ALL>>>> WHO killed Tori or WHY????? >>!.....IMO I believe like Rodney Stafford said THE TRUTh May never be known as the person who could tell us it is in heaven ....RIP our little ANGEL ...Justice shall be served ....I feel personally that rafferty shall be convicted as a definite aessseory to the crime ...and I hope he is convicted of the dirty deed of RAPE...as I do NOT think TLM was lieing on that one( confusing MOST definitely her story and( mixed up) very sick mind ....my STRONG Personal OPINION...robynhood!

roseofsharon · Apr 22, 2012

I can't wait to hear how Derstine will explain TS's clothing missing from the waist down, but I have an idea how he will attempt to explain this. IMO

roseofsharon · Apr 22, 2012

gardenia said:
RE: babysitting theory.

I am not sure we have heard any 'evidence' (in court) of this theory though it has been floating around on WS for a long time. To me this sounded like a logical cover story that TLM could come up with to lure VS into the car - especially if you, like me, believe that TLM knew TM. From there one could also assume that this was the story she could tell MR as to why she had VS. But, JMO!

I agree, as I also think TLM knew TM, however, imo, MTR the mastermind who proposed the idea of a young child and TLM probably thought, hmm, simple, as she knew TM's daughter and probably preplanned it would be TS, however, didn't realize when she abducted TS that MTR was talking very young. IMO

CarrieBean · Apr 22, 2012

roseofsharon said:
I can't wait to hear how Derstine will explain TS's clothing missing from the waist down, but I have an idea how he will attempt to explain this. IMO

Yeah, although I think we often get surprised by the defense's garb, I can't imagine them coming up with too much that's realistic.

tmhco · Apr 22, 2012

TLM had said she would take the fall. But she may have been mad on first confession and said he did it and it may have been the truth said:
Honor among thieves? I am not convinced she did kill her, she certainly had it in her, but the confession seemed so genuine to me. Especially when she said, "like, he knew what he was doing". Gave me goosebumps. She may just be living up to her promise to take the fall. Who knows? JMO

matou · Apr 22, 2012

Derstine will blame everything on TLM because she testified that she killed Tori and she was assaulted another inmate in January. She will "be taking the fall" for everything from their end. He's already spent time playing Necro songs to the jury. That pretty much tells me that's the angle. JMO

Ardy · Apr 22, 2012

tmhco said:
Just out of curiosity, what kind of evidence would you expect to find on a body that was decomposing for over three months and a suspect who was free to cover his tracks for 6 weeks? Should we not even try cases where DNA doesn't reveal the complete facts of the case? JMO

I don't know if we could expect a lot of scientific evidence, given the circumstances.

My understanding is that if the Crown submits items for testing, they must reveal the results of the tests, regardless of if it helps or hurts their case against the accused.

I think some of the evidence we heard, the Crown knew would not explain a lot, but had to introduce it regardless.

Along this line............can anyone remember how TLM's letters, journal and statements to her Godmother about microwaving her dog, get into the Crown's case? Did the Crown introduce it, or did the defense bring it in during cross examination?

I have wondered where this information came from, because the revelations certainly didn't support TLM's testimony.

TIA

JMO...............

matou · Apr 22, 2012

The jealousy thing in terms of TLM is so ironic since he contacted how many women (I'm not clear on this) while TLM was in his presence? During the abduction and after the murder? The babysitting thing would only work IF his back seat was in the car. Where was Tori sitting? IF no backseat, he KNEW Tori was not supposed to be in the car and he can't play dumb on that. JMO

tmhco · Apr 22, 2012

gardenia said:
RE: babysitting theory.

I am not sure we have heard any 'evidence' (in court) of this theory though it has been floating around on WS for a long time. To me this sounded like a logical cover story that TLM could come up with to lure VS into the car - especially if you, like me, believe that TLM knew TM. From there one could also assume that this was the story she could tell MR as to why she had VS. But, JMO!

Maybe Derenstine took a lesson from JB by searching the Internet for a defence he knew some people might buy. Worked for CA. JMO

matou · Apr 22, 2012

tmhco said:
Just out of curiosity, what kind of evidence would you expect to find on a body that was decomposing for over three months and a suspect who was free to cover his tracks for 6 weeks? Should we not even try cases where DNA doesn't reveal the complete facts of the case? JMO

McLean further testified because of the presence of excessive decompositional fluid from Toris remains, the proper analysis and attempted detection of any further evidence was severely hindered by bacteria.

In fact, she states, DNA could not even be detected on Tori.

http://www.1047.ca/local-news/michael-rafferty-trial

CarrieBean · Apr 22, 2012

At this point, I don't believe Tori was specifically targeted. I think that in a town this small people are bound to know each other, whether just in passing, buying drugs, from the grocery store, whatever. I think that a little girl would have died that day (or soon after) even if Tori hadn't unfortunately walked home alone that day...it would have been another little girl. Even if they had to grab one off the street.

I don't think TM buying pills from TLM's mother had any part of it and I don't think the girl MR dated, who had a daughter who played with Tori, had anything to do with it. I think they just waited for an opportunity, and Tori just happened to be walking alone that day. It looks like Tori was always with someone walking and that day just happened to be unusual and fit it with these 's plans.

Kamille · Apr 22, 2012

roseofsharon said:
I agree, as I also think TLM knew TM, however, imo, MTR the mastermind who proposed the idea of a young child and TLM probably thought, hmm, simple, as she knew TM's daughter and probably preplanned it would be TS, however, didn't realize when she abducted TS that MTR was talking very young. IMO

If she did know her, as in "hey there's one of the kids that was petting my dog the other day", then how convenient for him that they chose the one day that Victoria was alone after school to attempt this abduction. I'll bet she wasn't even walking home but rather waiting for her brother. And it's possible that TLM really wasn't going to approach a child and that maybe Victoria did call out to her and ask where her dogs were which started the conversation. Now why TLM wouldn't say this is how it happened would be beyond me. Maybe she still can't come to grips with the fact that Victoria had approached her in a trusting way and that she made the decision to lead her to her eventual fate.

Even if it happened this way, it still doesn't prove that she knew that Victoria was TM's daughter.

MOO

Alethea Dice · Apr 22, 2012

SFB73 said:
My point is, MR dropped off TLM before school was out, he alone in his car was then spotted at 3:20 ish on video meaning he likely was dropping TLM off in the area before school was out, so why not simply drive into the school parking lot to drop her off and wait for TS rather than have TLM meet up with TS on the street, too many people would have noticed them if they were in the lot at the school.

The video footage of TLM and TS is shot at angle where they would have already past the main parking lot of the nursing home, he was parked in a secluded smaller parking lot to the north of the building. He dropped TLM off, got out of the area and came back trying to keep his vehicle out of sight and avoid being noticed. Look at a satellite photo of the tennis courts at cass, the camera was on the building by the courts which is further up the road than the first lot at Crescent Care.

I realize that they were already past the main parking lot when MR passed them. He pulled into the next parking lot on the street, which was the smaller north parking lot at Caressant Care. He was on video pulling into Esso at 3:20 and leaving Esso at 3:25. He could have dropped her off, went to get gas, and came back to pick them up. The street in front of the school, on the side the school is on, is a no parking zone. The other side of the street, I believe, is limited on the times that you can park. That parking lot at the school looks very small. There's a chance that parents are not even allowed to park in the school lot at dismissal time. Many schools have this restriction. Does anyone know where the buses park? Do they pull into the parking lot or just pull up on the street? If the buses pull into the parking lot, I have doubts that parents would be allowed to park and wait for their children there.

JMO

http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=oliver+stephens+school+woodstock+ont&hl=en&ll=43.121371,-80.741819&spn=0.00186,0.00478&oe=UTF-8&client=safari&fb=1&gl=ca&hq=oliver+stephens+school+woodstock+ont&hnear=oliver+stephens+school+woodstock+ont&cid=0,0,4766772720690554010&t=h&z=18

matou · Apr 22, 2012

MR's car passes the point where TLM and Tori are captured on video camera at 3:30:56 and then TLM and Tori are on camera at the same spot at 3:32:20. That's MR driving by 84 seconds before Tori and TLM get there.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/84386320/Rafferty-Trial-Evidence

This shows planning. JMO

robynhood · Apr 22, 2012

...I decided to change my avitar on here ...showing support for the strafford family as her page has asked ....the Family faces the next hard part as defense shall present their case soon...I personally am not looking forward to this...IMO>>>> I find so far it had been very twisted all the cross exams of the crown witnesses ...another hmmmmmm moment I am afraid shall be starting ...I do want to hear what defense kept saying" WAIt till you hear our defense before you judge my client....ok I am all EARS .....( Mr. Destine defense attorney )....parphasing what was written before trial started ..thanks robynhood....

otto · Apr 22, 2012

Tahorn said:
Agreed, after all for three years i believed he was not only guilty of the worse possible crime, (ever parents nightmare) ... but also of taking advantage of a poor, naive teenager just looking for love.

But now I know have doubts, and that things may not be as the first seemed to be ...

Maybe I am just hoping that VS wasn't sexual assaulted in her last hour ... In a way it may give a little peace to her family ... or at least I pray it would.

She was found without clothing below the waist. There's little doubt that she was assaulted.

Weekend Discussion thread 04/21-24/2012

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