All things Joe Paterno

I don't think that comment was directed against you, Rlaub. Mine was not, just to be clear. :)

I do think that there are a lot Penn Staters (fans and/or alumni). I posted on an alumni board that basically no individual way hurt by the vacating of the games (except arguably a dead Paterno). One posted said that he couldn't understand the question about how was being punished since fans would have to root for another team. :rolleyes: :)

Logic, and a Penn State degree, do not necessarily go hand in hand. ;)

Thanks JJ. The other comment quoted my post, referred quite often to "you" and "y'all", and I am a PSU alum (B.S. and M.Ed), so I kind of felt directed toward.

You are right - there are a lot of commenters on CDT and the Patriot-News who cannot be brought to believe Paterno ever made any mistakes, and they are taking the sanctions harder than Coach O'Brien and his players!

Of course, fans and alums aren't the only ones - have you read the comments made today by long-time Trustee Al Clemens?
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/08/two_penn_state_trustees_offer.html
 
Thanks JJ. The other comment quoted my post, referred quite often to "you" and "y'all", and I am a PSU alum (B.S. and M.Ed), so I kind of felt directed toward.

I'm Class of '85, and a life member of the Alumni Association, and I was one of those people who was not calling for the statue to be removed prior to the e-mails being released. Evidence is evidence, and Freeh produced it.

You are right - there are a lot of commenters on CDT and the Patriot-News who cannot be brought to believe Paterno ever made any mistakes, and they are taking the sanctions harder than Coach O'Brien and his players!

O'Brien obviously knew what he was getting into. I found out that the individual players records are not affected by the vacated games. I asked someone if the games were restored, would Paterno get better seats in the afterlife. :)

Of course, fans and alums aren't the only ones - have you read the comments made today by long-time Trustee Al Clemens?
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/08/two_penn_state_trustees_offer.html

Clemens is not on the BoT, but I think is an alum.

If these guys keep talking, they turn Beaver Stadium into a cow pasture.
 
Where in what I wrote did you see me attacking Freeh or the report?

I commented on the ESPN reporter who completely misread the report and posted misinformation. My concern is that people who haven't read the report will read that article and take as fact that Paterno and others had three opportunities to report Sandusky.

I pointed out the error the reporter made, and I don't think comparing me to an unreconstructed Southerner, or saying that I am reluctant to see something, is warranted off of the post I made.

Do you also think Paterno, Curley et al. had three opportunites to report Sandusky up to and including the 2001 incident, or do you agree with what I wrote, that the article is misleading?

I was completely wrong. I apologize absolutely. You did not attack the Freeh report, and it was wrong of me to say you did.

what I said didnt apply to your statements at all. My huge mistake.
 
Thanks JJ. The other comment quoted my post, referred quite often to "you" and "y'all", and I am a PSU alum (B.S. and M.Ed), so I kind of felt directed toward.

You are right - there are a lot of commenters on CDT and the Patriot-News who cannot be brought to believe Paterno ever made any mistakes, and they are taking the sanctions harder than Coach O'Brien and his players!

Of course, fans and alums aren't the only ones - have you read the comments made today by long-time Trustee Al Clemens?
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/08/two_penn_state_trustees_offer.html

Love this comment on your article, shows the convoluted thinking involved:

Sadhana Gupta
PS: chasing your tails : Or is it that McQ was trying to get everyone into trouble by telling them what he saw. But no he didn't tell them what he saw, so that can't be it. He was trying to get them into trouble by meeting them but not telling them what he saw. Basiclly he didn't see anything, he just went along to three men to shoot the breeze with them and get everyone into trouble. But the coach testified to the grand jury about what McQ told him. Coach must have lied to grand jury because McQ obviously didn't tell anyone what he saw because he saw nothing. Oh coach can't lie to grand jury so McQ must have lied to coach too about it being sexual in nature - he just tried to get everyone into trouble by meeting them and not telling them anything about it being sexual in nature, coach just imagined McQ said it was sexual in nature and informed higher ups, waitaminute.


Excellent analysis and I just want to save these couple of quotes:

It takes a moment to sift through this sanctimonious double talk before realizing that letting "the legal process unfold" was exactly what Joe Paterno did not do. These events did not shake Penn Staters' beliefs in who they are, they shook their beliefs in who Joe Paterno was.

As for Paterno claiming "we were all fooled," what else could he be admitting except that he understood what McQueary told him and had taken it upon himself to decide that Sandusky couldn't be guilty of such a thing?

Then, finally, there is the "by the book" defense. When testifying before the grand jury, as related in the book, Paterno was asked what he thought McQueary saw. "I don't know," he replied. "I thought he saw them horsing around. Maybe he thought he saw some fondling. I don't know about any of this stuff. But I could tell it made Mike very upset." When asked if he considered calling the police, Paterno replied, "To be honest with you, I didn't. This isn't my field ... I tried to look through the Penn State guidelines to see what I was supposed to do. It said I was supposed to call Tim [Curley]. So I called him." In the most important test of moral courage in Joe Paterno's life, he was satisfied that he had done the right thing because that's what the rule book said.

Paterno, age 77, "put both hands on the table, looked Graham Spanier in the eye and growled. 'You take care of your playground, and I'll take care of mine.'" Not only did Paterno face down his president, he boasted about it to friends and colleagues over the next several months. If Posnanski disapproved of Paterno's actions in this case, he doesn't indicate it. Nor does he seem to understand any more than Paterno did that Paterno's bullying of Spanier was a repudiation of all the ideals the coach was supposed to have cherished and lived by all his life.

Either due to haste or sloppy editing, Paterno ends without Posnanski having answered his own big question. "Why didn't he follow up?" Guido D'Elia, a Paterno friend and former assistant, tells Posnanski rhetorically. "Find the answer to that and you'll have the story." Posnanski never tries to answer the question, but I'm going to take a crack at it based on what I read in Paterno.

Joe Paterno did as little as he could about Sandusky while remaining within the strict letters of the law. He did not do more because he knew a firestorm of bad publicity would descend on his beloved football program. He may have personally despised Jerry Sandusky, but he also knew that Sandusky's brilliance as a defensive coordinator had been largely responsible for winning the two biggest games in Penn State history: ........... the two games which gave Paterno his two national titles. Paterno knew that if Sandusky went down, it would take a piece of his reputation as well.

Posnanski tells us time and again that "Joe knew that football is not the most important thing." And yet in nearly every important decision of Paterno's life, from choosing not to follow his father's wishes and study law to refusing to surrender discipline of his student-athletes to the university to protecting the reputation of his program over the safety and well-being of young boys, Joe Paterno chose football.

I don't think that comment was directed against you, Rlaub. Mine was not, just to be clear. :)

I do think that there are a lot Penn Staters (fans and/or alumni). I posted on an alumni board that basically no individual way hurt by the vacating of the games (except arguably a dead Paterno). One posted said that he couldn't understand the question about how was being punished since fans would have to root for another team. :rolleyes: :)

Logic, and a Penn State degree, do not necessarily go hand in hand. ;)

In reading over some of the sites criticizing the Freeh report and sanctions, that is one thing I've noticed....they over and over call those of us that do accept the FR/sanctions as 'not using logic' and being 'naive' and 'self-righteous'....I don't get the 'self-righteous' comment but ain't worryin' about it either....lol....

As far as the numbers the last time I checked the PSARS site, it said there are 9000 members....out of the 100s of thousands of students and alumni that is a very small minority, to me....but they are very active and want to be noticed and heard.... lol....they say if they don't get what they want (sanctions withdrawn) they will make a federal appeal of the NCAA decision....I'm waiting to see if this suit will even be accepted by the courts....

Is there a class at Penn State in 'how to shoot yourself in the foot'?

IMO
 
A bit off topic but does anyone know if Wendell Courtney was the attorney for Joe Paterno in 1998? I know he was PSU general counsel and was wondering if he represented Paterno and others how Cynthia Baldwin represented Curley and Shultz recently.
 
A bit off topic but does anyone know if Wendell Courtney was the attorney for Joe Paterno in 1998? I know he was PSU general counsel and was wondering if he represented Paterno and others how Cynthia Baldwin represented Curley and Shultz recently.

I'm not sure if anyone represented Paterno in 1998. Were there any legal proceedings that we know of for which he required counsel>

I know that he told Cynthia Baldwin he would obtain his own attorney for the Grand Jury appearance, and after the charges became public knowledge in November, he retained Wick Sollers, a prominent Washington D.C. defense attorney.
 
If we really, truly, need an Illuminati thread in this forum, know that you will have to do a lot of convincing to get that to happen.

This is a catch-all thread but it needs to stay focused on Joe Paterno. Thanks again all for keeping the conversation respectful and productive!
 
I'm not sure if anyone represented Paterno in 1998. Were there any legal proceedings that we know of for which he required counsel>

It's just that the statements stating he fulfilled his legal obligation sound to me he had some kind of legal counsel. Considering his response to 2001 and questionable involvement in 1998 it seems likely to me. It's why I was wondering about his relationship to Courtney.
 
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjrf-EiHdC8"]Joe Paterno and Doug Graber Cursing at Midfield 1995 Penn State @ Rutgers - YouTube[/ame]

From a 1995 game between Penn State and Rutgers. Apparently, Coach Doug Graber is upset that Joe Paterno ran up the score. It ends in an argument.
 
Joe Paterno and Doug Graber Cursing at Midfield 1995 Penn State @ Rutgers - YouTube

From a 1995 game between Penn State and Rutgers. Apparently, Coach Doug Graber is upset that Joe Paterno ran up the score. It ends in an argument.

Look who was responsible for the final score:

Paterno said Graber had a "right to be upset," and that he "felt kinda bad about that last (TD)," which he said was a result of an eager young backup quarterback, Mike McQueary, calling an audible and throwing a deep ball to Chris Campbell.
http://articles.nydailynews.com/1995-09-24/sports/17982770_1_nittany-lions-doug-graber-engram
 
http://www.salon.com/2012/08/23/paterno_bio_disgusting_and_disgraceful/

Paterno bio: “Disgusting and disgraceful”

The Joe Paterno biography, which makes apologies for its subject, is a minor literary crime

George Orwell’s review of Salvador Dail’s autobiography includes the observation that, “if it were possible for a book to give off a physical stink from its pages, this one would.” I was reminded of that judgment while reading Joe Posnanski’s new biography of Joe Paterno. “Paterno” is a disgraceful book and a minor literary crime.
 
Look who was responsible for the final score:

Paterno said Graber had a "right to be upset," and that he "felt kinda bad about that last (TD)," which he said was a result of an eager young backup quarterback, Mike McQueary, calling an audible and throwing a deep ball to Chris Campbell.
http://articles.nydailynews.com/1995-09-24/sports/17982770_1_nittany-lions-doug-graber-engram

what the wide world of sports does the action of a "eager young backup" football player, who rarely gets the chance, trying to score on a long td pass have to do with that same player witnessing a sexual assault by an adult on a child years later and reporting the attack? why would anyone believe that a TD pass in a lopsided game would have anything to do with what happened to boys in the showers at penn state because of jerry sandusky?

McQueary witnessed what Joe Paterno said he described as a "sexual assault" which (largely because of Joes description of McQueary's words----one of the few comments he has made about the event) the joepologists have been unable to whitewash away, despite their best efforts. He told Joe about it, and Joe then figured out what to do about the information. all Joe admited to, in retrospect, was wishing he had done more. the joepologists want you to believe he didnt get the message the concept "sexual assault" between a man and a boy conveys, and that he did all that was required by the book from a leader in his position.

and you point out that a college football player threw a td pass in a game that was already decided. and that is supposed to help us understand what happened at Penn state how?

oh and,since penn state had already scored 52 points by that time, how bad was "kinda bad"
anyways?


wonder if joe felt "kinda bad" in the same way when he found out that his telling the bot's not to fire him was not going to work, or if he felt less bad when he learned that numbers of young boys were assaulted in the facility that he built by the monster he finally admitted he had failed to do enough about.

how bad did ya feel Joe? according to the book that you authorized you cried like a baby when you lost your job and your reputation, but not at all when you learned that you harbored the predatory monster who did it all, using the cache and prestige that you created to groom his innocent victims.

did ya feel "kinda bad" when you supposedly first learned about rape and sodomy and destruction of young boys in your castle and then "really bad" when you were finally fired because of all of it?

its a shame you couldn't have cried for the victims and felt really bad for them. whats unclear in all this is just how bad you actually felt for them, but its crystal clear you felt really bad the only time anyone saw you cry, which was when you lost your job and your reputation.

ask not for whom the bell tolls. it tolls for thee. bring on the tears.
 
apologetic in fact, not at worst.the sports reporting world is having a difficult time with this book because the author is a respected member of the press who has produeced a seriously flawed, unbalanced and demonstrably inept, poorly disguised defense of his hero, joepa.

http://www.shermanreport.com/?p=4325

Clearly, this wasn’t the book Joe Posnanski wanted to write.

Posnanski wanted his version of Paterno to be an inside look at a legendary coach who did it the right way. The coach who was beloved throughout the country. Black turf shoes, rolled up pants and white socks. That Joe Paterno.

Posnanski would spend an interesting and insightful year in State College, Pa., hanging out with the coach and his family. Then he would channel all that research into a thoughtful writing process with Paterno hitting bookstores in time for Father’s Day in 2013.

That was the original plan until Jerry Sandusky became a household word.

Everything changed on that fateful November weekend. For Penn State, Paterno, and for Posnanski.

The end result is a hastily-rushed to market book that is disjointed at best and apologetic at worst. .
 
I read and loved Posnanski for years in the Kansas City Star. He is a fine narrative essayist. His Paterno bio as planned would have resulted in nothing more than a hagiography, with hopes for a release before Father's Day and the resulting large sales. (A serious biography would take much more than the year+ sabbatical he took from Sports Illustrated, so the project was never meant to be a serious undertaking but, rather, a glorifying of a then-popular athletic figure.) He should have scrapped the project entirely. Instead, he became an apologist - which, as far as I'm concerned, eliminates him from ever being read seriously again.
 
what the wide world of sports does the action of a "eager young backup" football player, who rarely gets the chance, trying to score on a long td pass have to do with that same player witnessing a sexual assault by an adult on a child years later and reporting the attack? why would anyone believe that a TD pass in a lopsided game would have anything to do with what happened to boys in the showers at penn state because of jerry sandusky?

and you point out that a college football player threw a td pass in a game that was already decided. and that is supposed to help us understand what happened at Penn state how?

Snipped by me.

Um, it was an interesting coincidence to the video HMS Hood posted; that's all. It isn't intended to have anything to do with Jerry Sandusky or anything else.

Seriously, I'm starting to feel as if anything I post is grounds to start an argument, and I'm not sure why.

When I looked up the details of the game referred to in HMS Hood's post, I found it strange and wanted to share it. No conspiracy theory, no tie-in to what McQueary would witness 6 years later; just a familiar name in this case. :banghead:
 
this is a different and interesting way to look at the book and the author. i couldnt burden myself with the discipline required to wade thru all those "good old st joe" chapters to experience what this reviewer has seen, but I recognize a lot of what he says in the chapters i did read, which had to do only with the sandusky problem. ( i can only take so much "good ole joe" talk.) personally i would not want this reviewer (Mr. Marchman) on my tail if I specialized in disingenuous information dissemination, for whatever reason:)


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444443504577601093829708820.html

A Sad Story of Happy Valley
The former Penn State coach comes across as a sort of stuffed mascot, monstrously indifferent to all around him..
By TIM MARCHMAN

Within a few days last fall, Joe Paterno, who had coached football at Pennsylvania State University for 62 years, lost his reputation and his job and then learned that he was dying. Joe Posnanski was there. Then a writer for Sports Illustrated, Mr. Posnanski had been in Pennsylvania's Happy Valley for months working on a book about the 84-year-old, for which he had been given unique access to the man, his family and his archives. At worst his biography would be the sort of life-lessons-from-the-coach book that well-known sportswriters seem compelled to write at some point; at best it would be a defining work, the perfect meeting of a legendary subject and a writer admired for celebrating what is good and right about American sport.

There are traces of these other books in the one that Mr. Posnanski finally wrote, which has come out nearly a year ahead of its original publication date in order to take advantage of public interest in the events that destroyed Paterno—a child-molestation scandal involving longtime assistant Jerry Sandusky. "Paterno" is mostly, though, the story of the coach as confidence man, and what you think of it will probably depend on how badly you think the author was conned.

In 1998, Mr. Sandusky, then Penn State's defensive coordinator, was investigated for showering with a young boy. No charges were filed. Three years later, a young coaching assistant saw him showering with another boy. The assistant went to Paterno, who reported it to the appropriate campus authorities, but the case wasn't followed up on, and nothing was heard of any of this for an additional 10 years.

There is little fresh information in "Paterno" about the scandal, and what there is—tales of how Paterno and Mr. Sandusky never really liked each other, for instance—isn't revelatory. In interviews before his death in January, Paterno would claim that he knew nothing about the 1998 incident. This appears not to be true, as the author documents, citing an email to the school's vice president from the athletic director of the time. Paterno would also claim that he didn't understand the gravity of what Mr. Sandusky was said to have done three years later. Given that Paterno admitted that he understood the shower incident to have been "of a sexual nature," this claim seems impossible to believe.

At best, Paterno was a sort of stuffed mascot, monstrously indifferent to everything around him. At worst, he orchestrated an active conspiracy to protect Mr. Sandusky. Probably the truth is closer to the former, as Mr. Posnanski argues, but nothing he offers will change anyone's mind.

The most interesting thing about "Paterno" may be that, even leaving the scandal aside, the coach comes across as a self-mythologizing monster, consumed by his legacy of winning on the football field. I'm not sure that this is what Mr. Posnanski was going for, given the amount of space he spends on the inspiring life lessons that various players learned from the coach. If not, though, it's a tribute to his reportorial commitment that he lets the facts tell the story.

Paterno's myth went like this: A street-wise Brooklyn kid with a Brown University education, he accidentally fell into coaching at a "cow college" and ended up becoming the winningest coach in NCAA history, despite an insistence that education and integrity mattered far more than athletic success. Most of this is false. Paterno had ambitions to coach from a young age, and for all his sanctimonious pieties, he arranged scholarships for bad students like Rich McKenzie, a linebacker who played in the early 1990s. He even, according to Mr. Posnanski, had his coaches beat the players with Wiffle-ball bats on the practice fields.

More than that, Paterno was something more than unfeeling to his own family. As a middle-aged assistant coach, he courted his future wife, an undergraduate at the time, then took her on a short recruiting trip for their honeymoon. Her birthday fell on Valentine's Day; he routinely ignored the date and once called her from the road claiming that he had gotten her a great present—two new recruits. He seems to have spent much of his children's lives either ignoring them or humiliating them over trivial things like sharing a cucumber from an all-you-can-eat plate.

It's odd, given all the stories that Mr. Posnanski tells, how much of the myth he seems to believe. He repeatedly invokes Paterno's love for the "Aeneid" as a sign of how cultured he was, when most big-city Catholics of his age and aspirations would have known a bit of Virgil. More to the point, the author buys Paterno's comparison of himself to Aeneas, drawing a causal line between Paterno's success and the rise of Penn State as an institution. In fact, the university's rise had to do with enormous Cold War-era military spending. The school didn't build a nuclear reactor in 1955 because of Joe Paterno. Today the program he built brings in tens of millions of dollars per year; the institution has an annual budget of more than $4 billion. Giving Paterno credit for building the school is like crediting legendary Celtics coach Red Auerbach for Boston.

Mr. Posnanski's belief comes through most in certain asides, as when he describes students standing quietly around the campus statue of Paterno on the night he was fired. "This silence," he writes, "weighed down the air, made it heavy and stifling, the quiet you might feel at the Vietnam Memorial." In such moments, Mr. Posnanski seems trapped not just by the myth but by his desire not to be like the meat-faced pundits who now compete with one another to see who can be most indignant over Paterno's failures—just as avidly as they once competed to see who could do most to build the myth of Saint Joe in the first place. It's a laudable instinct on the author's part but leads him to see gray where there is only black.

Still, if "Paterno" will satisfy no one who wanted Mr. Posnanski to write a document full of damning details about what the coach knew and when he knew it, the book is, intentionally or not, a devastating blow to Paterno's legacy.

Mr. Marchman writes about sports for the Journal. Follow him on Twitter at @timmarchman
 

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