Why were JB's arms over her head?

JonBenet did not wear socks that evening...she wore tights.
 
JMO8778,
Thats how she was left after being bludgeoned to death, and the rigor-mortis simply maintained this posture. Also if JonBenet had been accidently whacked then it is unlikely that her final posture would have occured.
JB's position with her arms over her head does not imply she was left that way after being bludgeoned to death. The dead body probably was arranged in that manner a good while after her death, i. e. when the staging was completed. Rigor mortis starts hours after death, so the stager of the scene had ample time to put the body in this position.
This may be why she was left wearing the white gap-top, but certainly her outstretched arms are suggestive of a defense posture, either due to a failed attempt at manual asphyxiation, or blows to and around her head, prior to her skull being fractured?
I believe the stager of the scene arranged the arms on purpose to suggest a scenario resembling sexual bondage. And many IDIs have indeed swallowed this scenario hook, line and sinker.
The greenery could come from any source in the house, but being carried down the stairs is good first guess. I do not think any greenery was discovered on the blankets, which might suggest they were applied after she was brought downstairs?
Weren't the stairs decorated with greenery? I suppose JonBenet's body picked some up when being carried downstaris.

The Ramsey's never said they removed JonBenet's socks when they put her to bed, yet she was discovered minus her socks. This may be part of the staging suggestive of a bedtime kidnapping?
The Ramseys were so vague about how they put JonBenet to bed that their vagueness alone raises a hundred red flags.
Lint on the feet can come from socks. Were the Rameys asked if JB had been wearing socks to the Whites' party?
 
In order for two people to stick together, like the Ramseys, whether married or not, against a "common" enemy-the police-there has to be a lot of dirty little secrets between the two . So, in my opinion, they stuck together like super glue because (if they committed this crime) they were both guilty as heck over the night's events. There was a lot going on that night that we will probably never know that lead to Jon-Benet's death. Seems very plausible that Patsy could have been out part of the night only to come home and find either Jon-Benet being sexually abused or dead.

I can't see Patsy saying ''When I came home after being out all night this is what I found." Patsy would never admit to being less than perfect.

I have often wondered what really was going on that night. Something certainly was-either third party guests or Patsy and John acting alone when something lead to this horrible crime being committed. The more I read, the more convinced I am that there was no IDI. Innocent people do not act like the Ramsey's did, whether they actually committed the crime or was doing something that night that lead to a third party killing Jon-Benet. But I certainly think they were "in to something" that will never be revealed.

well-said
 
I believe the stager of the scene arranged the arms on purpose to suggest a scenario resembling sexual bondage. And many IDIs have indeed swallowed this scenario hook, line and sinker.

I've wondered about that,too.I think it does sound likely.And then JR lied about her arms being tied...I think he forgot to change the ligatures,after she was wiped down and redressed in an attempt to hide a previous staging.
that's just another reason I think JR did the ligature staging..I don't think Patsy would have thought of that.And I think he tied that knot,too.Patsy may have hugged her and got her fibers on there bf she was strangled with it,but I think JR the rest.


Weren't the stairs decorated with greenery? I suppose JonBenet's body picked some up when being carried downstaris.
yes,I was thinking that if her arms were above her head if she was carried to the basement,that wouldn't have happened.

The Ramseys were so vague about how they put JonBenet to bed that their vagueness alone raises a hundred red flags.
You can say THAT again !:waitasec:
 
....

The Ramseys were so vague about how they put JonBenet to bed that their vagueness alone raises a hundred red flags.

Vague because she was never put to bed. It could be they were so busy plotting a pretend kidnapping, they didn't have time to get their story together about coming home and Jon Benet going to bed. Burke said his sister walked into the house and up the stairs.
In order for this crime to appear as a kidnapping where Jon Benet was taken from her bed, Patsy and John had to distance themselves from Jon Benet from all most the moment she entered the home. So they told the story of her being "zonked out" asleep and immediately placed in bed.
They also had to distance themselves from the tea and pineapple scene. If they admitted to knowing that, that means their "coming home and their daughter to bed immediately" tale become just that, a lie.
Was Patsy ever questioned by LE about how much sleep she had that night?

JMO
 
....

The Ramseys were so vague about how they put JonBenet to bed that their vagueness alone raises a hundred red flags.

Vague because she was never put to bed. It could be they were so busy plotting a pretend kidnapping, they didn't have time to get their story together about coming home and Jon Benet going to bed. Burke said his sister walked into the house and up the stairs.
In order for this crime to appear as a kidnapping where Jon Benet was taken from her bed, Patsy and John had to distance themselves from Jon Benet from all most the moment she entered the home. So they told the story of her being "zonked out" asleep and immediately placed in bed.
They also had to distance themselves from the tea and pineapple scene. If they admitted to knowing that, that means their "coming home and their daughter to bed immediately" tale become just that, a lie.
Was Patsy ever questioned by LE about how much sleep she had that night?

JMO


IA. Both the Rs distanced themselves from so much that occured that night, as well as common household items (Kleenex, flashlight, bowl, pineapple, spoon, etc.). A lot of it was unneccessary, especially if they were innocent. Why NOT admit to a late night pineapple snack? it certainly isn't criminal activity. Well, the WHY of it is that the pineapple snack implies an awake JBR AFTER returning home from the White's. And the Rs MUST have it believed that JBR was asleep from the car and they never saw her alive again. The time of death comes too close to their arrival home for any rational person to believe that an intruder commited the crime. That pineapple found at autopsy threw them for a loop! They NEVER expected anything like that to show up. That's why they had to lie about it.
There were about 6 hours from the time of the death to the 911 call. It seems like plenty of time, right? But consider- the events that lead to the head bash, the concocting of a plausible "murder/kidnapping"- staging the crime scene, trying to retrace their steps, cover their tracks, compose the note, clean up the crime scene (including redressing and cleaning up their daughter), deal with their son (who I actually believe was awake for much of the night) and all that the night entailed - and actually they didn't have ENOUGH time. If it hadn't been for the fact that they had a flight scheduled, we'd have seen a much later 911 call. I'd bet the rent on it. Now, you might think why was the flight schedule a big deal, after all, it wasn't a commercial flight, and they could have called the pilot to cancel without saying why. Well, here's WHY. It wasn't just the flight. They were meeting JR's older son and daughter, and the daughter's fiance, whom they were meeting for the first time. They needed to let the cat out of the bag (their dead daughter) before leaving for the airport around 6:30am. (for their 7am flight). If they cancelled with no explanation and then called 911 much later after they got their ducks in a row, when it hit the news about the kidnapping/murder, the pilot would have certainly suspected something.
 
But if there wasn't enough time...

The ransom note said not to call anybody.

John and Patsy have been roundly criticized for not obeying that part of the ransom note.

The pilot could have been called, an excuse given, and the flight delayed.

The 911 call could have been delayed (following ransom note instructions) until everything in the house was in order.

They were under no time pressure, Melinda and John Andrew were meeting them, they weren't coming to Boulder.

The ransom note was a perfect cover for this to have happened. But this didn't happen, why not?
 
Because ultimately what is a fact is that there was a dead daughter in the basement at the time of the call to the pilot, that was subsequently discovered, and made public and an approximate time of death stated. When JR called the pilot, he knew his daughter was dead, but her body hadn't been "found" yet. Because the body wasn't "discovered" by the 911 call at 6 am, but supposedly at 1pm (and supposedly JR had no knowledge of his daughter's whereabouts dead or alive until then)- it all would have pointed to a coverup. Also remember the extreme stress the Rs were operating under. Remember the saying "hindsight is always 20-20"? There were plenty of things they'd probably do differently if they could. (skip the pineapple snack for JBR, for one).
 
I've always thought it likely they had plans to wait,but were given advice,after a few phone calls,to go ahead and call 911...with their home phone at that.I think JR used a cell for the rest.
Also,time was running out..it was too risky not to call...it was the day after xmas..BR was going to be up and wanting to play w his friends,ppl might have called or dropped by...if they'd lived in the middle of nowhere,it might have worked.
I also wonder if JR expected her to be found a lot sooner,as in not long after the call,and the plane would still be ready for them to 'run' from the 'killer' and get out of town,asap,just like he tried to do at 1pm.
 
But if there wasn't enough time...

The ransom note said not to call anybody.

John and Patsy have been roundly criticized for not obeying that part of the ransom note.

The pilot could have been called, an excuse given, and the flight delayed.

The 911 call could have been delayed (following ransom note instructions) until everything in the house was in order.

They were under no time pressure, Melinda and John Andrew were meeting them, they weren't coming to Boulder.

The ransom note was a perfect cover for this to have happened. But this didn't happen, why not?

Albert18,

I agree, but the Ramsey's narrative is that they rose to find JonBenet missing along with an accompanying ransom note, and they probably reckoned playing by the ransom note rules would make things look precisely as if it was all staged to buy the time, so they decided to diall 911.

The why not? part is because they knew JonBenet's corpse lay down in the wine-cellar, which eventually is incompatable with the existence of the ransom note!


.
 
IA. Both the Rs distanced themselves from so much that occured that night, as well as common household items (Kleenex, flashlight, bowl, pineapple, spoon, etc.). A lot of it was unneccessary, especially if they were innocent. Why NOT admit to a late night pineapple snack? it certainly isn't criminal activity. Well, the WHY of it is that the pineapple snack implies an awake JBR AFTER returning home from the White's. And the Rs MUST have it believed that JBR was asleep from the car and they never saw her alive again. The time of death comes too close to their arrival home for any rational person to believe that an intruder commited the crime. That pineapple found at autopsy threw them for a loop! They NEVER expected anything like that to show up. That's why they had to lie about it.
There were about 6 hours from the time of the death to the 911 call. It seems like plenty of time, right? But consider- the events that lead to the head bash, the concocting of a plausible "murder/kidnapping"- staging the crime scene, trying to retrace their steps, cover their tracks, compose the note, clean up the crime scene (including redressing and cleaning up their daughter), deal with their son (who I actually believe was awake for much of the night) and all that the night entailed - and actually they didn't have ENOUGH time. If it hadn't been for the fact that they had a flight scheduled, we'd have seen a much later 911 call. I'd bet the rent on it. Now, you might think why was the flight schedule a big deal, after all, it wasn't a commercial flight, and they could have called the pilot to cancel without saying why. Well, here's WHY. It wasn't just the flight. They were meeting JR's older son and daughter, and the daughter's fiance, whom they were meeting for the first time. They needed to let the cat out of the bag (their dead daughter) before leaving for the airport around 6:30am. (for their 7am flight). If they cancelled with no explanation and then called 911 much later after they got their ducks in a row, when it hit the news about the kidnapping/murder, the pilot would have certainly suspected something.

DeeDee249,
The scheduled flight meant that the Ramsey's had to awake early to discover JonBenet missing or dead?

So theoretically the ransom note is redundant, superfluous to requirements, the question is why was it ever written at all, maybe it will go down as the longest guilty plea in history?

Assuming the ransom note is not a melodramatic feature then it likely had another role to play, e.g. explaining why JonBenet's corpse should be discovered some distance from her house, but this plan was changed, and the wine-cellar alternative hastily constructed, which gives the crime-scene the look of them running out of time?

imo the reason for the distancing will have been legal advice, both parents were potentially open to being charged with a capital crime, with either doing some kind of plea-bargain, each of their lawyers would have advised them to forget or not know about specific events? The important point is what matters is what is said in court not during interviews, so if you can obsfucate the interview, then you improve your ability to mount a successful court-room defense.

All three residents of the Ramsey household have either particpated in the death of JonBenet or colluded to maintain a fabricated version of events!


.
 
Assuming the ransom note is not a melodramatic feature then it likely had another role to play, e.g. explaining why JonBenet's corpse should be discovered some distance from her house, but this plan was changed, and the wine-cellar alternative hastily constructed, which gives the crime-scene the look of them running out of time?

that's what I think,too.why else would it say 'you will also be denied her remains for proper buriel' ????? DENIED...last time I checked the definition,it meant 'to withhold'..so why would they throw that in??? b/c in a momentary state of panic,someone or someones decided to get her out of the house and 'deny' her remains.
And then I think it makes sense to assume the sexual staging was then altered,ie-she was wiped down, redressed and covered.. since she would be found inside the house,and JR didn't want to get the blame for that.
For those that think they wouldn't have even thought about doing that,they certainly abandoned her body,(and tried to leave at 1pm) by not even escorting her to the morgue,and even thought about leaving the country.
I think Madelyn McCanns family may have actually done so with her.
 
This is what I think is the reason for the RN:
The Rs never intended to remove their daughter's body and hide it outside. What they intended was when the body was discovered in the basement, to say "See, the note said not to call police, but we did and they were "watching" and knew we called police (not to mention the parade of friends and victim advocates that joined LE that morning) and they killed her and put her back in the basement to show us that they were serious".

THAT was the reason for the RN and the wording about "she dies, she dies, she dies" crap. So they could say "Look, they really meant it!" The RN provided an explanation for the strangled little girl in the basement with duct tape on her mouth and cords binding her hands and feet. They never gave a thought to the invisible (at that time) head bash or telltale digested pineapple. That RN was VERY important to the Rs. Their daughter was already dead. They needed a way to explain it that wouldn't point to them. (or so they thought).
 
This is what I think is the reason for the RN:
The Rs never intended to remove their daughter's body and hide it outside. What they intended was when the body was discovered in the basement, to say "See, the note said not to call police, but we did and they were "watching" and knew we called police (not to mention the parade of friends and victim advocates that joined LE that morning) and they killed her and put her back in the basement to show us that they were serious".

THAT was the reason for the RN and the wording about "she dies, she dies, she dies" crap. So they could say "Look, they really meant it!" The RN provided an explanation for the strangled little girl in the basement with duct tape on her mouth and cords binding her hands and feet. They never gave a thought to the invisible (at that time) head bash or telltale digested pineapple. That RN was VERY important to the Rs. Their daughter was already dead. They needed a way to explain it that wouldn't point to them. (or so they thought).

DeeDee249,
The RN provided an explanation for the strangled little girl in the basement with duct tape on her mouth and cords binding her hands and feet.
Not so, the narrative outlined in the ransom note is at odds with the alleged abductee lying dead not abducted in the wine-cellar.

Without a ransom note they can still dial 911 and report a missing person, the ransom note is surplus.

They did not comply with the written demands in the ransom note which must mean they were abandoning a prior plan, otherwise why fill out the ransom note with specific timed instructions?

The missing part of the ransom note scenario is that JonBenet be discovered dumped away from the house, this was vetoed for some reason and JonBenet was dumped in the wine-cellar, and her redressing might suggest they originally intended to dump her naked along with visible signs of a sexual assault?

.
 
They did not comply with the written demands in the ransom note which must mean they were abandoning a prior plan, otherwise why fill out the ransom note with specific timed instructions?

Or

The ransom note was just one person's idea. There was no plan, just activity.
 
This is what I think is the reason for the RN:
The Rs never intended to remove their daughter's body and hide it outside. What they intended was when the body was discovered in the basement, to say "See, the note said not to call police, but we did and they were "watching" and knew we called police (not to mention the parade of friends and victim advocates that joined LE that morning) and they killed her and put her back in the basement to show us that they were serious".

but then that would require someone carrying her dead body into the basement,while the house was still occupied,and LE likely watching/being around...I'm not sure they would have tried to imply that's what happened.
even so,that doesn't explain why they threw the 'you will also be denied her remains for proper buriel' line in.something I've noticed about the R's is they don't point out things without a motive behind it.so then when you combine that line with the way her body has been staged and then restaged..and JR's lies about the ligatures being tight when they weren't,I think they had a panic driven thought/ plan in mind to get her out of the house,that later changed,for whatever reason..lack of time,too afraid to go thru with it,couldn't go thru with it,they were given advice to go ahead and call 911 SOON,etc.
 
DeeDee249,

Not so, the narrative outlined in the ransom note is at odds with the alleged abductee lying dead not abducted in the wine-cellar.

Without a ransom note they can still dial 911 and report a missing person, the ransom note is surplus.

They did not comply with the written demands in the ransom note which must mean they were abandoning a prior plan, otherwise why fill out the ransom note with specific timed instructions?

exactly ! the note is out of place as per what they did,and there's more to it than just acting at odds with what the note said in order to explain JB's death.

The missing part of the ransom note scenario is that JonBenet be discovered dumped away from the house, this was vetoed for some reason and JonBenet was dumped in the wine-cellar, and her redressing might suggest they originally intended to dump her naked along with visible signs of a sexual assault?

.

I think so,too,although maybe not naked,but with the visible sexual assault and bloody underwear,along with ligatures suggesting a sexual bondage scenerio.
And then I think that's why JR lied about the ligatures being tight..it was no longer a sexual staging,but I think he could no longer change the ligatures due to rigor,and perhaps he forgot to anyway,so he said they were tight in order to fit with a KN more than a sexual scenerio.
Perhaps that's the reason he 'found' her in the end..so he could lie about it,and to try to save himself from getting the blame for any sexual assault evidence.
 
Or

The ransom note was just one person's idea. There was no plan, just activity.

My thougts exactly. Trying to put any sense and logic into that note will end up nowhere imo.

jmo
 
DeeDee249,

Not so, the narrative outlined in the ransom note is at odds with the alleged abductee lying dead not abducted in the wine-cellar.

Without a ransom note they can still dial 911 and report a missing person, the ransom note is surplus.

They did not comply with the written demands in the ransom note which must mean they were abandoning a prior plan, otherwise why fill out the ransom note with specific timed instructions?

The missing part of the ransom note scenario is that JonBenet be discovered dumped away from the house, this was vetoed for some reason and JonBenet was dumped in the wine-cellar, and her redressing might suggest they originally intended to dump her naked along with visible signs of a sexual assault?

.

I wouldn't call the ransom letter surplus. I see it as a blueprint, directed to LE, as to why there is a dead child in the basement of the parents' home. It isn't just the length of the ransom letter that is unusual. Look at the lack of specific directions for trading cash for child. Getting the ransom money should be a key part of any kidnapping. But the letter gives only a day (tomorrow) in its instructions to have Jon Benet returned. And there is a glaring omission as to which tomorrow or a reference to when the letter was penned in order to establish what day is meant as "tomorrow."
The letter pays much more attention to clues as to who and why Jon Benet was kidnapped: a small foreign faction; someone who knew John; someone who knew the amount of his latest bonus; someone who hated John and his business.
Those clues were meant to do one thing - point investigators away from the parents being involved.
jmo
 

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