All About Chloroform#2

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
Indigo said:
You guys are watching way too much Nancy Grace again! Three ingredients--and we're talking about black holes and anti-matter? Maybe we need a babel fish and some deprogramming.

LE hasn't given up on the chloroform. It's been confirmed in two separate tests--one for the chemical alone. It's listed the search warrant. It's still a thing. JMO. At least until the next document dump....

Then maybe you'll be rid of me!

ETA: I'm joking here...I just realized it may not sound like that. Big Smiley Face.
Click to expand...
Taken, with welcome, in the spirit it was offered.

And an Oak Cluster for knowing about babel fish.

But I still think the chloroform is a red herring.
 
Indigo said:
You guys are watching way too much Nancy Grace again! Three ingredients--and we're talking about black holes and anti-matter? Maybe we need a babel fish and some deprogramming.

LE hasn't given up on the chloroform. It's been confirmed in two separate tests--one for the chemical alone. It's listed the search warrant. It's still a thing. JMO. At least until the next document dump....

Then maybe you'll be rid of me!

ETA: I'm joking here...I just realized it may not sound like that. Big Smiley Face.
Click to expand...
No I agree that LE should be looking really hard to find Chloroform evidence.

IT IS AN ISSUE.

But as far as we know they have found no evidence. If they later tell us of some evidence I will have no trouble accepting that.

One of the reasons interview people or look for evidence is to ELIMINATE a line of reasoning.
 
fortytwo said:
Taken, with welcome, in the spirit it was offered.

And an Oak Cluster for knowing about babel fish.

But I still think the chloroform is a red herring.
Click to expand...
Help, my babel fish is broken. It just translated something on a chloroform thread and came up with "Red Herring"
 
Hercule Poirot said:
Help, my babel fish is broken. It just translated something on a chloroform thread and came up with "Red Herring"
Click to expand...


Here...you can use mine :fish:

Gotta go...I'm getting hit with a red herring ---> :trout:
 
txsvicki said:
But, she did look it up on her computer and someone turned up dead and there's chloroform in the trunk. It's evidence even if the chloroform site wasn't kept up for an hour or however long someone thinks it might need to be read. I see what you're saying though, if they don't have any more chloroform evidence then it might not be enough to prove at the trial.
Click to expand...

Again it's evidence only of chloroform in trunk--but not tying it to Caylee. And in the absence of any evidence of her ever having purchased, mixed or manufactured it herself, nothing tying it even specifically to KC. IMO this all affords the possibility it was product or by-product of one or more chemicals, used by one or more persons involved w clean-up after the fact--and not, it would appear, by KC. (See Post 726) From what we know re condition of trunk at time it's initially retrieved upon A's taking possession, there was trash, maggots and flies--following which any number of unknown chemicals or agents were likely used before being impounded by police, after which notably only evidence found by CSI remaining in trunk was essentially microscopic (dirt, hairs etc). Oh, and fabric freshener sheets... JMO
:waitasec:
:parrot:
 
It is a REMOTE possibility that the chloroform was a result of or byproduct of cleaning products. The more likely possiblity is that the chloroform present was a byproduct of human decomposition.
 
I went back and reread some docs to verify my memory.

http://www.wesh.com/download/2008/1126/18155354.pdf
Page 34 of 50.

Chloroform was searched on 2 different days. March 17 just the word 'chloroform' was entered, spelled wrong, then 'alcohol', 'acetone', and 'peroxide' were searched, and March 21, 'how to make chloroform', again spelled wrong, was entered. This is also the day 'neck breaking', shovel', etc. was searched.

On Oct. 7, Yuri Melich spoke with Dr. Vass by telephone. Dr. Vass mentioned to Melich an unusually high amount of chloroform was found. Melich then contacted the computer forensics person and asked them to look for chloroform searches. These were found. So I was backwards on what was discovered first. I agree 100% nowhere does it say in these documents exactly how much 'an unusually high amount' is. However, this conversation is also not entered verbatim, and also the chloroform was mentioned separate from the human decomposition. The fact Melich went from this conversation to the forensic computer tech and asks her to look for chloroform tells me there is more to it. The fact she finds searches for chloroform leads me to believe there is more to it. The fact an independent expert refers to it as 'pure' chloroform, and it turns out there is something called 'Purified Chloroform' leads me to believe there is more to it.
Do I think Casey sat down at her computer back in March, rubbed her hands together while emitting an evil cackle, and declared, "I am going to mix up a batch of chloroform and kill my daughter with it, bwaa haa haa haa!"? No, I do not. Do I think Casey killed Caylee with chloroform? I don't know, but I think it is a reasonable assumption.
MOO, I think Casey stole the chloroform, and it was probably commercial grade, however, I haven't ruled out her making it herself. She did cook, and making chloroform does not seem any more complicated or time consuming than making dinner. It's not like the girl had no free time on her hands.
Lanie
 
Hercule Poirot said:
No I agree that LE should be looking really hard to find Chloroform evidence.

IT IS AN ISSUE.

But as far as we know they have found no evidence. If they later tell us of some evidence I will have no trouble accepting that.

One of the reasons interview people or look for evidence is to ELIMINATE a line of reasoning.
Click to expand...

All I can go by: the newest facts and evidence we have in this case. I've provided numerous links to those facts and that evidence. There was evidence of chloroform found in the trunk of Casey Anthony's car--in addition to and separate from Vass' decomp analysis. It is stated in the affidavit that that Rickenbach's analysis was done as a result of Vass' analysis. That means Vass gave them good reason to test for chloroform alone. And residues of chloroform were found. The line of reasoning was not eliminated. Hence, the search for componenents used to make chloroform and containers used to mix chemicals.

The post-mortem hair and Vass' report, along with high chloroform levels, any fiber, botanical, or other debris that tie to the trunk will be powerful circumstantial evidence--even if chloroform residue is never found at the dump site. JMO.


I'm curious, in your opinion what was the purpose of that second testing?
 
Lanie said:
I went back and reread some docs to verify my memory.

http://www.wesh.com/download/2008/1126/18155354.pdf
Page 34 of 50.

Chloroform was searched on 2 different days. March 17 just the word 'chloroform' was entered, spelled wrong, then 'alcohol', 'acetone', and 'peroxide' were searched, and March 21, 'how to make chloroform', again spelled wrong, was entered. This is also the day 'neck breaking', shovel', etc. was searched.

On Oct. 7, Yuri Melich spoke with Dr. Vass by telephone. Dr. Vass mentioned to Melich an unusually high amount of chloroform was found. Melich then contacted the computer forensics person and asked them to look for chloroform searches. These were found. So I was backwards on what was discovered first. I agree 100% nowhere does it say in these documents exactly how much 'an unusually high amount' is. However, this conversation is also not entered verbatim, and also the chloroform was mentioned separate from the human decomposition. The fact Melich went from this conversation to the forensic computer tech and asks her to look for chloroform tells me there is more to it. The fact she finds searches for chloroform leads me to believe there is more to it. The fact an independent expert refers to it as 'pure' chloroform, and it turns out there is something called 'Purified Chloroform' leads me to believe there is more to it.
Do I think Casey sat down at her computer back in March, rubbed her hands together while emitting an evil cackle, and declared, "I am going to mix up a batch of chloroform and kill my daughter with it, bwaa haa haa haa!"? No, I do not. Do I think Casey killed Caylee with chloroform? I don't know, but I think it is a reasonable assumption.
MOO, I think Casey stole the chloroform, and it was probably commercial grade, however, I haven't ruled out her making it herself. She did cook, and making chloroform does not seem any more complicated or time consuming than making dinner. It's not like the girl had no free time on her hands.
Lanie
Click to expand...
KC looked up killing using household items, or something like that. She specifically looked up shovel. On June 18th, she borrowed a SHOVEL from a neghbour! She was already acting out of character by backing into the garage. Is that the day she beat Caylee to death with a shovel?
 
kiki the parrot said:
Again it's evidence only of chloroform in trunk--but not tying it to Caylee. And in the absence of any evidence of her ever having purchased, mixed or manufactured it herself, nothing tying it even specifically to KC. IMO this all affords the possibility it was product or by-product of one or more chemicals, used by one or more persons involved w clean-up after the fact--and not, it would appear, by KC. (See Post 726) From what we know re condition of trunk at time it's initially retrieved upon A's taking possession, there was trash, maggots and flies--following which any number of unknown chemicals or agents were likely used before being impounded by police, after which notably only evidence found by CSI remaining in trunk was essentially microscopic (dirt, hairs etc). Oh, and fabric freshener sheets... JMO
:waitasec:
:parrot:
Click to expand...

Going by the evidence, there is no evidence the car was cleaned out other than removing the trash, knife and clothes. There is no evidence there were maggots still in the trunk after George and tow yard guy removed the bag of trash. There is no statement of how much debris was found in the trunk. Just because they looked at the dirt under a microscope does not make it fact only microscopic amounts of dirt were found. I don't know if they gave an actual count of how many hairs were found in the trunk. Throwing a dryer sheet into the trunk of a car is not the same as cleaning it out. There is no more evidence, IMO there is less evidence, the car was cleaned out than there is there was chloroform in the trunk.
Lanie
 
Hercule Poirot said:
KC looked up killing using household items, or something like that. She specifically looked up shovel. On June 18th, she borrowed a SHOVEL from a neghbour! She was already acting out of character by backing into the garage. Is that the day she beat Caylee to death with a shovel?
Click to expand...

Well, since the evidence points to Caylee already being dead by June 18th, no evidence was found on that particular shovel indicating someone was beaten with it, and no trauma was found on her bones indicating being beaten by a shovel, I would have to say no. :D
Lanie
 
Indigo said:
All I can go by: the newest facts and evidence we have in this case. I've provided numerous links to those facts and that evidence. There was evidence of chloroform found in the trunk of Casey Anthony's car--in addition to and separate from Vass' decomp analysis. It is stated in the affidavit that that Rickenbach's analysis was done as a result of Vass' analysis. That means Vass gave them good reason to test for chloroform alone. And residues of chloroform were found. The line of reasoning was not eliminated. Hence, the search for componenents used to make chloroform and containers used to mix chemicals.

The post-mortem hair and Vass' report, along with high chloroform levels, any fiber, botanical, or other debris that tie to the trunk will be powerful circumstantial evidence--even if chloroform residue is never found at the dump site. JMO.


I'm curious, in your opinion what was the purpose of that second testing?
Click to expand...
The point I am making is that there is similar "Evidence" for death by shovel. In fact more clearcut for shovel and LE have the prime suspect shovel in custody. You need more evidence than a google search and an item mentioned.
 
Lanie said:
Well, since the evidence points to Caylee already being dead by June 18th, no evidence was found on that particular shovel indicating someone was beaten with it, and no trauma was found on her bones indicating being beaten by a shovel, I would have to say no. :D
Lanie
Click to expand...
What evidence points to dead prior to 18th?

I think the HPshovel theory deserves better than that if you are going to refute it.
 
Hercule Poirot said:
What evidence points to dead prior to 18th?

I think the HPshovel theory deserves better than that if you are going to refute it.
Click to expand...

Lanie said:
Well, since the evidence points to Caylee already being dead by June 18th, no evidence was found on that particular shovel indicating someone was beaten with it, and no trauma was found on her bones indicating being beaten by a shovel, I would have to say no. :D
Lanie
Click to expand...

Bolded by me.
Depending on whether or not you believe George, Caylee was last seen either June 15th or June 16th. Even Casey herself says she hasn't seen her since June 9th. Video of Casey at Blockbuster with TonE and no Caylee, testimony by TonE of when he last saw Caylee, and how often Casey was with him. No evidence to support existence of person who supposedly had Caylee. No evidence, actually, to support Caylee was anywhere after June 16th other than in a laundry bag in the trunk of Casey's car, then in the woods where she was found.
Lanie
 
Lanie said:
Bolded by me.
Depending on whether or not you believe George, Caylee was last seen either June 15th or June 16th. Even Casey herself says she hasn't seen her since June 9th. Video of Casey at Blockbuster with TonE and no Caylee, testimony by TonE of when he last saw Caylee, and how often Casey was with him. No evidence to support existence of person who supposedly had Caylee. No evidence, actually, to support Caylee was anywhere after June 16th other than in a laundry bag in the trunk of Casey's car, then in the woods where she was found.
Lanie
Click to expand...
OK We are developing my new theory.
Perhaps the blow with the murder weapon did not break bones, but caused death nevertheless. As you see in "Shaken Baby" cases. I dont know, exactly how and when the shovel was used any more than you know details of chloroform use. I at least know wich shovel! I at least have found my potential weapon near the likely crime scene, and have eyewittness testimony to prove that very shovel was in KC's possession around the very time that Caylee was killed. Pretty strong case? The shovel is at least as guilty as OJ?
 
Hercule Poirot said:
The point I am making is that there is similar "Evidence" for death by shovel. In fact more clearcut for shovel and LE have the prime suspect shovel in custody. You need more evidence than a google search and an item mentioned.
Click to expand...


I was referring to the evidence of chloroform found in both Rickenbach's anaylsis and in Vass' analysis. IMO, this evidence is supported by Casey's searches not only for "how + to+ make + chloroform," but the individual ingredients for the "recipe/s": "acetone," "alcohol," etc.

IIRC, Vass did find acetone in his analysis. Conclusion unclear. IMO.
 
Indigo said:
I was referring to the evidence of chloroform found in both Rickenbach's anaylsis and in Vass' analysis. IMO, this evidence is supported by Casey's searches not only for "how + to+ make + chloroform," but the individual ingredients for the "recipe/s": "acetone," "alcohol," etc.

IIRC, Vass did find acetone in his analysis. Conclusion unclear. IMO.
Click to expand...
Shovel beats chloroform by miles.

Shovel is a "Prime suspect" in custody and helping LE with their inquiries. (No doubt lawyered up.)

Chloroform is just a known associate that LE might want to talk to at a later date.
 
Hercule Poirot said:
OK We are developing my new theory.
Perhaps the blow with the murder weapon did not break bones, but caused death nevertheless. As you see in "Shaken Baby" cases. I dont know, exactly how and when the shovel was used any more than you know details of chloroform use. I at least know wich shovel! I at least have found my potential weapon near the likely crime scene, and have eyewittness testimony to prove that very shovel was in KC's possession around the very time that Caylee was killed. Pretty strong case? The shovel is at least as guilty as OJ?
Click to expand...

LOL. Maybe you should start a new thread.
I know more details of chloroform being in the trunk than you do cleaning solvents. There is no evidence whatsoever cleaning solvents were used in the trunk. The only evidence you have to point to cleaning solvents being used in the trunk is the chloroform itself. My leap to assumption is no higher or longer than yours.
But back to your shovel theory. What evidence do you have to support your assertion someone can be killed with a shovel without leaving any trace on the bones. What evidence do you have this particular shovel was used? We do have forensics on that shovel, and they do not point to any organic matter from a human other than one hair, which did not match Caylee, being found on the shovel, and they also do not point to the shovel having been cleaned. What evidence do you have to support someone can be killed with a shovel without leaving any trace on the shovel?
Lanie
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is Escambia County John Doe (1989)?

Staff online

Members online

... and 125 more.
Total: 3,573 (members: 126, guests: 3,447)

Online statistics

Members online
126
Guests online
3,447
Total visitors
3,573
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
592,279
Messages
17,966,544
Members
228,735
Latest member
dil2288
Back
Top