All About Chloroform#2

Great work, LB35! It is more of that cobbling together that KC and all pathological liars do. She comes across a name in her diabolical research, and slaps it onto a lie about a boss at Universal.

The chloroform issue is mentally exhausting, in my mind. How does it all fit together????!!!! If not for the google search, it wouldn't be so confusing.

strach304 said:

If you read the report that the Dr. wrote at that link that LB provided it does give one some insight as to why the duct tape was used. Having the breathing and pulse return is a chance Casey didn't want to take. Sick Biotch!

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Let me just say...and I don't want to say more than that...I HOPE LE is onto this. HOPE. I have no problem providing them with all of my research at all. None. I know a lot of people have pm'd me tonite (they will understand that I am sad that the Titans lost but VY played pretty well...it is only Preseason...doesn't count) it took me a lot of time to go through my notes. TY all for thanking me...but I don't want to say all of this could be how she got the information. Having said that...cecybeans deserves a lot of credit for helping me through all of this. And she knows what I mean. But if you do more research on his name and chloroform...trust me when I say you can easily find Tom Manley by googling just chloroform and death. Yes, he mentions tape, ect...I should probably not have posted this. But I have yet to post what I believe to be true about two other names she mentioned that have been proven not to exist. And trust me...just as bombshellery. Eat your heart out, Nancy Grace. (Just kidding...I happen to love her...despite myself).

The Eunice Burns said:

Great work, LB35! It is more of that cobbling together that KC and all pathological liars do. She comes across a name in her diabolical research, and slaps it onto a lie about a boss at Universal.

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This may not be the appropriate thread, but how in the world can any jury not see that KC's entire story is filled with a patchwork of individuals she's encountered either physically, in print or verbally, throughout her life? Please tell me that LE will spell that out for the jury?

cecybeans said:

What is also interesting is that when I googled the name and Florida I came up (amongst other things) with a poster on a site that is a Music Store.

It's called The Music Source & DJ Supply and the address is (surprise surprise!) on Colonial Drive in Orlando. If this was a regular customer, and from his post it appears he does DJ gigs, he may have been acquainted with AL as well, or KC may have even met him earlier.

I wouldn't put it past KC to pick names she had seen in several places. Or perhaps she posted that herself under the name Tom Manley, who knows?

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That's interesting. There's a recommendation for this store dated Aug 3 '07 stating "I love this store. The owners are very awesome. Once Manny gave me $1,000 in equipment when mine was stolen from my van. He truly is a great man."

Ok...mods...please forgive me...I am not a huge thread starter. Then where do I post the stuff on the other names? Or do I create or can someone else (pretty please) do it? Raquell Farrell to me is just as significant...as well as well...uggg... I am off topic. so sorry. AIEEE

The Eunice Burns said:

Great work, LB35! It is more of that cobbling together that KC and all pathological liars do. She comes across a name in her diabolical research, and slaps it onto a lie about a boss at Universal.

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KC did tell LE that she was trying to give information in a backwards sort of way. She did say that.

Woe.be.gone said:

KC did tell LE that she was trying to give information in a backwards sort of way. She did say that.

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Yes she did. Exactly. And VERY excellent point. And yes...imho there are some serious links. Reasons why I felt like once I had found certain links to certain names like Tom Manley...that she was well very very guilty. These names came from her mouth. Although I guess the defense will probably put out there that she was TOLD to say them...please. I am onto them.:blowkiss::woohoo:

BJB - thanks for the excellent info on the increase in chloroform in anaerobic conditions. I do wonder how often the trunk was opened after the body was gone (for instance, the 24th, and, as you mentioned the afternoon and night of July 15 (and probably the 16th as well). I realize that a body wrapped in plastic bags would create an anaerobic environment, but what effect would the oxygen present in the trunk have to do with diluting that condition? Also, if some of the chloroform was a result of the natural decomp situation, and additional chloroform was present in any cleaning chemicals used on the carpet, could that make for an unusually high amount (if there is still a consensus that certain carpet or car cleaning chemicals do have chloroform as a component)? If the trunk was aired out for several hours, but solvents were used to clean it or perhaps mask the odor, that might make for the higher concentration, would it not?

cecybeans said:

BJB - thanks for the excellent info on the increase in chloroform in anaerobic conditions. I do wonder how often the trunk was opened after the body was gone (for instance, the 24th, and, as you mentioned the afternoon and night of July 15 (and probably the 16th as well). I realize that a body wrapped in plastic bags would create an anaerobic environment, but what effect would the oxygen present in the trunk have to do with diluting that condition? Also, if some of the chloroform was a result of the natural decomp situation, and additional chloroform was present in any cleaning chemicals used on the carpet, could that make for an unusually high amount (if there is still a consensus that certain carpet or car cleaning chemicals do have chloroform as a component)? If the trunk was aired out for several hours, but solvents were used to clean it or perhaps mask the odor, that might make for the higher concentration, would it not?

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Excellent post. Will share more with you when my phone charges TY!

LittleBitty35 said:

Thomas Franck was the email (that she supposedly sent to herself...not a valid one...no valid email address...no such employee was ever there) that she probably showed to her mother to prove she had a job. Tom Manley was the name she gave to the guard at Universal when she was with the LE that day she was "arrested on a bleeping whim."

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And, IIRC (forgive me for not crediting the original poster), Thomas Franck is also a name that has been associated with various Nigerian email scams. This girl does have a snarky sense of humor, or at least irony, it would appear.

Oh, good lord :waitasec:
I guess that will be the next bad guy she blames.
Wanna know about Rachael. That should be a doozy.

PLease don't post about pming each other. thanks

Please check out the 4th section:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2279603&postcount=1"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Rules Etiquette & Information[/ame]

BondJamesBond said:

...not sure it'll help, but, after re-reading above...here's another angle.

What they are doing is effectively trying to reverse-engineer what was actually in the trunk. Its a bit like tasting a cake and determining the recipe from your keenly developed sense of taste. Add to that what you can learn from cake recipes. From most recipes you have a good idea of the relative amounts of each different kind of common ingredient (e.g. 2x as much flour as sugar and 1000x as much flour as vanillin, etc.) should be in the cake. If you tasted a cake and thought, "Whoa! Waaaay too much vanillin!" well, then, you might think someone (a) added too much, or (b) spilled the vanillin bottle into the batter Add a little sleuthin' and learn that on the day after the cake was baked you found a receipt for a new bottle of vanillin...and AHA!! You think you've solved it. Right? The baker put in too much! You knew it!!

Then you learn the truth. The baker forgot to stir the batter, and it just so happens that the bite you got contained 100% of the vanillin that was in the cake!!

<snip>

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Outstanding analogy, BJB.

*snipped*

cecybeans said:

what effect would the oxygen present in the trunk have to do with diluting that condition?

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IMHO, regarding conditions for decomposition we're dealing w/ 3 environments:

Greatly simplifying things we can assume the barriers between each of these is somewhat effective, but, not 100%, therefore, no one is perfectly 'sealed' from either of the other two. The presence of the stain is one means of suggesting this is a reasonable assumption to make...not perfect (owing to possible tear of a sealed bag during a lift outta the trunk), but, let's go with it for now, shall we? Let's say things are 'enclosed' not to imply 'sealed'.

The highest degree of decomposition that generates chloroform under 'normal' circumstances even when the body isn't enclosed is during the rapid, early phase of the delicate internal organs, gut, etc. This takes place inside the covering of the skin, etc. which is, to a large extent, anaerobic. So...even under 'normal' circumstances in the very early stages of decomp we get chloroform...tada. In this case, the body being inside a plastic bag further ensures...perhaps even extends...the time in which the decomposition is taking place w/o excess oxygen because under 'normal' circumstances when the skin is breached oxygen becomes available to (a) allow chloroform to escape and (b) *advertiser censored* the generation of chloroform because oxygen is now present during decomposition. To a lesser extent having an overall effect, chloroform is 'heavier' than air...so it displaces air from the bottom of the trunk first. As the trunk 'filled' with chloroform and other decomp gases the air would have been slowly displaced from the trunk through any leaks around the trunk lid seal. This would, albeit only slightly, reduce the amount of oxygen available for decomposition, hence, reducing chloroform generation. IMHO, 6/16-6/18 there's not so much off-gassing going on, but, by ~6/19...it is becoming tremendous, esp. if the body was disturbed 6/18 during the shovel shuffle.

So....oxygen available in the trunk have an effect? Sure...a little, but, not much owing to the plastic bag, IMHO.

Also, if some of the chloroform was a result of the natural decomp situation, and additional chloroform was present in any cleaning chemicals used on the carpet, could that make for an unusually high amount

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I'm gonna take exception to the use of "unusually high amount" because there is no such thing as a usual amount in this situation...we just don't know what to expect under these circumstances. Nothing to compare it to other than a trunk w/o a HDE taking place in it. THAT is what is giving us the comment that there was an high amount of chloroform in Casey's Pontiac...there shouldn't be a dead body in the damn car...therefore there usually shouldn't be any/much chloroform in there.

With that outta the way...the short answer is sure...yes...if chloroform-containing solvents were used to clean the carpet it would show up as exacerbating the chloroform level in the trunk that was already present from the HDE.

(if there is still a consensus that certain carpet or car cleaning chemicals do have chloroform as a component)?

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Not a consensus...it is a certainty. I'm sure you can find'em if you search for'em. BTW...chloroform also can be found in some commercial-grade pesticides (since you didn't mention). FYI.

If the trunk was aired out for several hours, but solvents were used to clean it or perhaps mask the odor, that might make for the higher concentration, would it not?

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Only if the solvent contained chloroform.

HTH.

Anyone watching CSI Miami right now? This is episode 139---All In---Original air date 1 Apr 08 according to my dishnetwork info screen. Episode centers around Horatio tryings to cope with his troubled past, while Calleigh is kidnapped by two men looking to cover up a murder. Stars David Caruso, Rex Linn, Adam Rodriguez, Emily Procter, Jonathan Togo, Khandi Alexander, and Eva La Rue.
Chloroform is mentioned as well as cigar smoke to mask the odor of decomp.
Just jumped out at me and knowing that KC was a big CSI fan I thought I'd post it...

momtective said:

Anyone watching CSI Miami right now? This is episode 139---All In---Original air date 1 Apr 08 according to my dishnetwork info screen. Episode centers around Horatio tryings to cope with his troubled past, while Calleigh is kidnapped by two men looking to cover up a murder. Stars David Caruso, Rex Linn, Adam Rodriguez, Emily Procter, Jonathan Togo, Khandi Alexander, and Eva La Rue.
Chloroform is mentioned as well as cigar smoke to mask the odor of decomp.
Just jumped out at me and knowing that KC was a big CSI fan I thought I'd post it...

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Very interesting. I haven't seen that episode. Swap the cigar smoke for cigarette smoke......Hmmmm....I wonder what sort of service the As have? Cable, digital cable w/ DVR, satellite? And if they did have DishNetwork, does the monthly service track your usage and what shows are being accessed? Of course, that would be difficult to prove if such a thing could be shown that on 4/1/08, KC viewed that program. Unless it could be proven that G & C were not in the house. Sorry if it's silly, just thinkin' out loud......

The Eunice Burns said:

Very interesting. I haven't seen that episode. Swap the cigar smoke for cigarette smoke......Hmmmm....I wonder what sort of service the As have? Cable, digital cable w/ DVR, satellite? And if they did have DishNetwork, does the monthly service track your usage and what shows are being accessed? Of course, that would be difficult to prove if such a thing could be shown that on 4/1/08, KC viewed that program. Unless it could be proven that G & C were not in the house. Sorry if it's silly, just thinkin' out loud......

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Yeah, it might'of been silly of me to post it...but after having watched it there were several things that would have interested KC. Covering the decomp with cigar smoke, using chloroform to knock someone out, using a lint roller on the body to remove trace, scraping the finger nails and using bleach to clean up.

momtective said:

Yeah, it might'of been silly of me to post it...but after having watched it there were several things that would have interested KC. Covering the decomp with cigar smoke, using chloroform to knock someone out, using a lint roller on the body to remove trace, scraping the finger nails and using bleach to clean up.

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Nothing is too far beyond the pale with that little whackadoodle. She reminds me of a more modern version of the Peter Sellers character in the movie "Being There", in which his outside contact with the world was a television set and all his lines were simply lifted and repeated from TV shows.

This kid sat in front of a TV or computer (when she wasn't texting or talking and maybe while she was) and just absorbed stuff like a sponge that she regularly regurgitated whenever she needed a cover story. I'm beginning to think - since we've found (thanks to all the wonderful sleuthers here) many of the name references she's made have come from googling or social networks or websites, that she particularly was drawn to names that she had seen or heard more than once, or they are recombined sometimes in different permutations. I don't know whether that was a conscious effort at irony or just something that happened because it stuck in her head better to see or hear something more than once. Nothing about her makes much sense.

She reminds me of a kind of Idiot Savant of sociopaths - she can't think ten minutes ahead, but she can spit out a complicated story with breathtakingly convoluted detail on the spot.

Has a thread been created to discuss the other name connections that LittleBitty discovered?