AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - # 7

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Thats the exact why I feel, Frigga.

If I had not already kept up with many cases where the victim's home had dogs in it then I may pay more attention to the subject about the dogs barking or not barking in this case.

LOL! You are right..........usually when barking dogs hear another barking dog they chime right in even if they have no clue why the other dogs are barking.:floorlaugh:

Then sometimes our dogs will fool me and not bark at all when they hear other dogs barking.

Dogs are as unpreditable as humans are, imo.

imo

Oh dear. I have two dogs but reading these posts make me glad I also have and alarm system. I think most all dogs bark, but do not necessarily attack except on command. Could not execute a command if you don't know there is an intruder. e.g. bedroom doors shut, etc. Some people sleep with all bedroom doors shut. Not me personally. I think my dogs would bark but as far as attacking I don't think they would even if I commanded it. lol I have heard criminals reportedly saying that a dog is the best way to keep an intruder away because of the noise. But, who knows. I guess it depends upon how determined the intruder is. jmo
 
BBM

Respectfully, that is the least reasonable explanation, imo. That is about as non-sensical as Casey Anthony trying to say Caylee died accidentally yet..oops.. she took her and threw her little body into a bug infested swamp to decompose and never looked back or even reported her missing.

In fact when that infamous stupid case was going on I did a lot of research trying to find just ONE case where a child had accidentally died and the parents took the body out of the home and covered the accidental death up. I couldnt find one case.......not one case where a parent or parents had ever done that.

People dont make accidental deaths look like a homicide or into a criminal act. Like Dr. G said.......they call 911 immediately to get assistance for the child that has been accidentally hurt.

JMO though

The thing is, for all of the children who remain missing, we have no way of knowing that his has never happened before...some of the currently missing children could well be the result of a home death followed by a cover-up. We just don't know. JMO
 
I don't think anyone's saying it's physically impossible for a perp to enter a home with three dogs. I personally find it unlikely that a stranger did so in this case, with 3 vocal dogs and a family that hasn't been cleared. Outside anecdotal evidence aside, my own experience with dogs leads me to examine in what situations a person could get past three dogs. That's all such discussion is, for me personally. I am not discounting the possibility, I just find it unlikely in this case.

ETA: And again, we don't even know that a perp did get past the dogs. Maybe they did bark. Maybe they were drugged. Maybe they were given a t-bone. Just normal speculation in the absence of information.
 
25 years ago we were in Japan, and I hated being away from my home, my customs, the food.....but I felt very safe with my children! You never heard of crimes like these.

Interesting viewpoint. We lived in Latin America for a year. In a home with a high wall around it. And a security system. Kidnappings were common,but it was more for political reasons at that time... Very scary though. MOO
 
BBM

Respectfully, that is the least reasonable explanation, imo. That is about as non-sensical as Casey Anthony trying to say Caylee died accidentally yet..oops.. she took her and threw her little body into a bug infested swamp to decompose and never looked back or even reported her missing.

In fact when that infamous stupid case was going on I did a lot of research trying to find just ONE case where a child had accidentally died and the parents took the body out of the home and covered the accidental death up. I couldnt find one case.......not one case where a parent or parents had ever done that.

People dont make accidental deaths look like a homicide or into a criminal act. Like Dr. G said.......they call 911 immediately to get assistance for the child that has been accidentally hurt.

JMO though

One of the biggest theories of the JBR case is that JonBenet was accidentally killed, and then it was covered up. However, the catalyst would be someone smashing JBR's skull, so it wasn't a true accident, so maybe it doesn't fit the criteria.
 
Oh dear. I have two dogs but reading these posts make me glad I also have and alarm system. I think most all dogs bark, but do not necessarily attack except on command. Could not execute a command if you don't know there is an intruder. e.g. bedroom doors shut, etc. Some people sleep with all bedroom doors shut. Not me personally. I think my dogs would bark but as far as attacking I don't think they would even if I commanded it. lol I have heard criminals reportedly saying that a dog is the best way to keep an intruder away because of the noise. But, who knows. I guess it depends upon how determined the intruder is. jmo

Good to see you Mic!

We would all like to believe our dogs would become Cujo against anyone of our family members but the honest truth is dogs really are as unpredictable as human beings.

We dont have our dogs for protection. They are our babies and quite spoiled I may say! LOL! One can be tenacious but I would never expect her to guard us.

Frankly, I wouldnt ever want her to be hurt nor our other dog. They are like our children and we would want to protect our grown children even though I know they would instantly try to protect us.

IMO

That is why we also have an alarm system.
 
BBM

Respectfully, that is the least reasonable explanation, imo. That is about as non-sensical as Casey Anthony trying to say Caylee died accidentally yet..oops.. she took her and threw her little body into a bug infested swamp to decompose and never looked back or even reported her missing.

In fact when that infamous stupid case was going on I did a lot of research trying to find just ONE case where a child had accidentally died and the parents took the body out of the home and covered the accidental death up. I couldnt find one case.......not one case where a parent or parents had ever done that.

People dont make accidental deaths look like a homicide or into a criminal act. Like Dr. G said.......they call 911 immediately to get assistance for the child that has been accidentally hurt.

JMO though

There are plenty of cases where the parents called 911 to report a missing child who, as it turns out was harmed and killed (or presumed killed) by those same parents.

Shaniya? Zahra? Jhessye? Aliyah? Ethan? Ayla? Baby Lisa?

I didn't say that Isa likely died as a result of a simple accident. I said that likely her death may have occurred accidentally during some type of abuse (like I said before felony homicide) which is why the family would have staged a kidnapping scenario.

Just like quite a few of these other cases. And seeing as how this sort of thing seems to happening more and more, I think it is EXTREMELY possible and probable. More likely than a drug kidnapping or child trafficking or unknown intruder.

Of course this is only MOO as far as Isa's case, but to say that such a thing has never happened ever is factually wrong.


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My daughter in law is mexican and I know how much family means to them. Her family is all very close and will welcome anyone in. Chidren seem to be their whole lives. This is an attribute I highly admire. But, I also know they are very private when it comes to family matters. For this reason, I have wondered if perhaps the Celis family and extended family could be doing their own investigation privately. Especially if they think it could be someone in their family or circle of friends. There is no evidence this is the case, but it did occurr to me. jmo
 
My Australian shepherd 'Adji" will let strangers/adults shake hands when they come up on the porch but he went after a man last week for trying to shake the 4 YO GS hand. Scared the bejeebus outa' me! I know I need to remedy that but now I am not sure I want to. He sure was not going to let that stranger touch the baby at all! Definitely going to have socialize the dog more with strangers and the baby to prevent a dog bite suit but wow, I am torn about how to handle it. I suppose even if I teach him to tolerate strangers touching the baby he would learn when the baby is in danger or not. In Adji's defense, the man did move quickly toward the baby. Not slow and calculated as if to ask permission. Sooo torn about this one.

Sorry for rambling. Maybe I should C/P this post to the pets forum.
 
One of the biggest theories of the JBR case is that JonBenet was accidentally killed, and then it was covered up. However, the catalyst would be someone smashing JBR's skull, so it wasn't a true accident, so maybe it doesn't fit the criteria.

Thank you, eileen.

I have seen that unfounded theory for many years and it is just speculation. There really was no evidence to base that speculation on either.

And the unknown male DNA found in her panties doesnt comport with that theory,imo.
 
I think the big difference is that on this side of the pond, we have horribly sensationalized news reporting, and on the European side of the pond, it is much less so, or it is in the tabloids which everyone recognizes as trash reporting.. Here ALL of MSM has become very tabloid-esque.

When I was young (late 60's through the 70's), I grew up in NYC. Kids rode the subways as preteens, alone, to get to high school. I walked to my elementary school, about 1/2 mile or so, alone, through the streets, from the age of 8 or 9. It was how things were done then. People I grew up with are all paranoid about their kids and won't even let them walk to the bus stop alone now! But, statistically, it is SAFER NOW for children then it was then, but, as a society we have grown much more fearful.
Media has much, much too much, to do with it.

All MHO.

But The UK also their share of sensational high-profile cases. From what I'm reading, these cases got massive coverage over there, so it's safe to say that MSM was reporting on them too. Maddie McCann, James Bulger, Rosie Palmer, Holly Wells, Jessica Chapman, Leanne Tiernan, Kelly Anne Bates, Suzanne Capper, Victoria Climbie, Milly Dowler, Danielle Jones, Rhys Jones, Ben Kinsella, Sarah Payne, Tia Rigg, Hannah Williams. What's the difference between those cases and "our" high-profile cases? I'm reading the circumstances of the cases I referenced here, and it's hard for me to think that there wasn't sensationalism in the reporting, or the reason why the cases made the news.
 
If one were from Mexico - why not kidnap a child in Mexico?
Why cross the border into the US and have to cross back into Mexico with a child in tow?

Seriously asking because I don't know.
Are there reasons?

ETA: Other than drugs/dealing and money.
I see no evidence of drugs/dealing and I see no evidence that this family is
"well to do" enough to warrant a kidnapping for $.
BBM

Agree completely. They seem to be average middle-class people living in an average neighborhood. I can't imagine a kidnap for ransom when it is far more likely, and sadly, that a SO was involved.

:(

MOO
 
There are plenty of cases where the parents called 911 to report a missing child who, as it turns out was harmed and killed (or presumed killed) by those same parents.

Shaniya? Zahra? Jhessye? Aliyah? Ethan? Ayla? Baby Lisa?

I didn't say that Isa likely died as a result of a simple accident. I said that likely her death may have occurred accidentally during some type of abuse (like I said before felony homicide) which is why the family would have staged a kidnapping scenario.

Just like quite a few of these other cases. And seeing as how this sort of thing seems to happening more and more, I think it is EXTREMELY possible and probable. More likely than a drug kidnapping or child trafficking or unknown intruder.

Of course this is only MOO as far as Isa's case, but to say that such a thing has never happened ever is factually wrong.


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I am not talking about what was reported by a 911 call being made.

I am talking about actual cases where it was established the child HAD really died accidentally and then was thrown away and some big coverup happened.

I have seen absolutely no evidence to even consider abuse happening to Isa. She was much loved and adored by her family who are decent caring parents, imo. And not one person has said anything differently.

I also have seen no connection to drugs either. If fact I read LE said the 'drug connection' was misplaced. So even they do not think this has a thing to do with drugs, imo

In the cases you have listed above it was very evident there were major issues in the family dynamics. None of those issues are present in this case with these parents, imo.
 
Good to see you Mic!

We would all like to believe our dogs would become Cujo against anyone of our family members but the honest truth is dogs really are as unpredictable as human beings.

We dont have our dogs for protection. They are our babies and quite spoiled I may say! LOL! One can be tenacious but I would never expect her to guard us.

Well, the CELIS family's dogs are tenacious and predictable enough to be a menace to the neighborhood, as evidenced by the multiple court filings against the family for barking.

Three big, loud, noisy dogs. Outside most of the time, says the neighbor. Sounds like a pretty big deterrent to me.
 
[Hi marazul and welcome!
BBM This is a little O/T but I read it in so many of the threads when there are Hispanics that I feel I have to get one thing straight. Latinos ARE Caucasian! I am Spanish American on fathers side and Mexican American on my mothers side and my birth certificate says "white". In the later 50's they changed the birth certificates to read Caucasian. Sorry, but like you I get highly defensive too.






I do not want to sidetrack from this topic, but yes if you are from Spain or Latino of mestizo blood, you may self identify as Caucasian, however many Latinos identify as indigenous, meaning in north/south/central America or the Caribbean before the Caucasian, meaning Spanish, Portuguese, or other Europeans came. If you self identify as Maya( not extinct like dinosaurs, that's just a media lie), Azteca, Taina, Afro Caribbean, etc, then you are Latino-Non-Caucasian. Not all Latinos are Caucasian. Most Latinos are a mix of caucasian, african, and indigenous blood. Plenty Latinos check 'other' on that form because our heritage is too diverse to fit into White (Hispanic). Personally i think this is whitewashing of minorities . There is a native american box for native north americans, but not for native south or central americans.Too off topic and irrelevant. But if it helps, I will say Latinos can be mistaken for American Caucasians of non Hispanic origin.
 
Well I live in the UK so I can only talk about the UK. I don't see many kidnapping here but our population is tiny in comparison to the US. The most common ones involving children are when they are nabbed off the street (we had an attempted abduction 5mins from my house last week - guy tried to pull an 8yr old boy into his car). Scary.

I'm not bashing you but I'd never let my daughters go to the bathroom alone in a restaurant. We had a horrible case of 2 little boys being followed into the mens room in McDonalds where a guy did horrible things to them. The kids were too scared to tell the parents and it was a few days before they told what happened. Think that was London.

IMO we have just as many predators in the UK and Europe as there is in the US.

No offense taken. I have no idea about the UK and I would certainly be cautious in places like eastern Europe, but only speaking about Germany, the stats aren't even close. It's a societal problem, is what I was getting at. We must always be cautious, but over there, it borders on paranoia and it's sad. With the washing machine guy I described, I would have had my brother or my dad with me at the timeif it was in San Diego.

The location of the Celis house bothers me. Sometimes in plazas there are day workers standing around waiting to be picked up for odd home jobs. Is there any such area near their house? I suspect whoever it was was casing the house from that parking lot. And since it's so vacant and likely people leaving from that neighborhood drove the other direction, the person could have gone unnoticed for a long time. They could have even cased it from the alley behind the house. The fact that it happened on a Friday night/saturday morning also makes me think someone had no work that Saturday so they wouldn't throw any red flags out in that aspect. Lastly, I do still wonder if what the neighbor heard were the 'kidnappers'. 6:30 on a Saturday and likely everyone is still in bed. And maybe even saw them come home from the baseball game late.
 
The thing is, for all of the children who remain missing, we have no way of knowing that his has never happened before...some of the currently missing children could well be the result of a home death followed by a cover-up. We just don't know. JMO

You're right we don't know but yet there is no logical reason why a parent would cover up an accident death to look like a homicide. I think that is the point. If they're covering it up, it's because it wasn't an accident, it was murder.
 
Well, the CELIS family's dogs are tenacious and predictable enough to be a menace to the neighborhood, as evidenced by the multiple court filings against the family for barking.

Three big, loud, noisy dogs. Outside most of the time, says the neighbor. Sounds like a pretty big deterrent to me.


I agree that the dogs should have been a deterrent. It is very difficult for me to imagine dogs who neighbors report do bark when someone walks by the house, to not bark in the middle of the night? But then bark "going nuts" at 6:30 am? It just makes no sense to me.

That said, the court records are not for barking, but for dogs at large.

The dogs were at large on April 13th, and there are multiple court filings for the dogs at large without proof of vaccination and license. These citations were for the incident on the 13th. It is a misdemeanor in AZ.

Violation of noise ordinance for loud animals is a different process, from what I read on the Tucson Animal Care site.
 
I agree that the dogs should have been a deterrent. It is very difficult for me to imagine dogs who neighbors report do bark when someone walks by the house, to not bark in the middle of the night? But then bark "going nuts" at 6:30 am? It just makes no sense to me.

That said, the court records are not for barking, but for dogs at large.The dogs were at large on April 13th, and there are multiple court filings for the dogs at large without proof of vaccination and license. These citations were for the incident on the 13th. It is a misdemeanor in AZ.

Violation of noise ordinance for loud animals is a different process, from what I read on the Tucson Animal Care site.


Thanks for stating that. I was under the same impression that it was for dogs running loose and also vaccinations I think. jmo
 
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