GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #15

Nausicaa · Oct 23, 2011

veggiefan said:
Despite VT's admission of manslaughter, I dare say that the jury will be aware (as we here all are) that LE managed to charge entirely the wrong person at the start of this year. I would therefore expect that they will (as indeed they should) demand a high level of proof.

I loved all the preceding part of this post Veggie, but you're mistaken in saying that CJ was charged. He was arrested, but most certainly was not charged. Since 1984 in England the police can legally arrest people on very slender grounds. It's charging that they need solid evidence for. If the public had read the Police and Criminal Evidence Act they would realise that being arrested is not, in the present state of English law, discreditable : it could happen to anyone.

If it is true that CJ is suing the police and if the case goes to court (which will surprise me quite a lot) we shall see on what grounds CJ was arrested. They will have to be tenuous indeed for him to win a case for false arrest.
(Just for the record, not that my opinions matter, I strongly disapprove of the Act in question and don't think the police ought to be able to arrest so easily. But at present they can.)

Cherwell · Oct 23, 2011

CJ's situation as a keyholder of Flat 1 would have put him well ahead of the field, if nothing else.

weeeva · Oct 23, 2011

Sammyme said:
Whatever happened, gripping wrists so as to cause marks and injury suggests to me force, coercion, restraint. Was he gripping her wrists in trying to pin her down and overcome her? We may never know but clearly there was something going on that was a great deal more than merely offering to kiss someone who he thought wanted a kiss. It is as baffling as ever to understand what he embarked upon that night and why he killed a young woman. His own story of events doesn't explain it.

Luna15 said:
Am still thinking that Bernard could have caused the scar and sparked off the whole 'incident'

The nurse found a 6x1 cm scar with scab on his left arm and a bruised toe nail.
by skynewsgatherer via twitter

Tabak was probed about minor arm injuries he was found to have when he was arrested. He said he could not remember how he had got the injuries.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oc...?newsfeed=true

<< example of a cat scratch

I have been thinking along these lines as well. I have had many a scratched arm from my cats. My arms used to be full of scratches scabs and scars. I looked like a self harmer. Not meant in jest as self harming is a terrible state of mind to be in.
And the blighters (cats that is) can scratch right through your clothes. Not a heavy coat but certainly through a shirt T shirt or jumper.

aneurin · Oct 23, 2011

veggiefan said:
....Despite VT's admission of manslaughter, I dare say that the jury will be aware (as we here all are) that LE managed to charge entirely the wrong person at the start of this year. I would therefore expect that they will (as indeed they should) demand a high level of proof.

Point of order. The wrong man (as in CJ) was never charged, merely arrested. Arresting someone during the course of a murder enquiry and then releasing them without charge is business as usual. There was a chap called Rico Gordon who was shot to death in Bristol in July of this year. So far A&SC have made at least ten arrests. I think the total is up to over twenty something in the Melanie Hall case (including the boyfriend back in the day).

weeeva · Oct 23, 2011

whiterum said:
Remember VT was away for six weeks TM was maybe staying elsewhere for a while and they took it as they were separated.

This rings true to me since the trial has since disclosed that VT did in fact come home on his bicycle around 7 pm. that friday night. The neighbour was close enough to the driveway to hear the conversation, so it could have been a resident or visitor to the block. Or a neighbour involved in the conversation.

If not CJ that neighbour should have been called as a witness, or maybe since they were not personally identified just want to keep out of it .

Yes Whiterum, it rings true to me that VT came home on his bike and was seen by neighbours talking to CJ. But no one knows what was said. That is the only problem I have. What was said.
I do not assume that CJ told VT. I want to know for absolute definite. One hundred percent certainty. Beyond all reasonable doubt.
But alas it looks like I may never know.

kINGFISHER · Oct 23, 2011

MMENJBRIT said:
VT suddenly notices JY in the grocery store, abandons the shopping cart and heads for home fast to lay in 'wait'?

Some of these cctv images show up better than others, he definitely follows her with his eyes almost pushes the trolley into her then is gone like a rocket with his camera on his back. What was the hurry for I wonder, what did he have on his mind ?

Curious Alice · Oct 23, 2011

kINGFISHER said:
Some of these cctv images show up better than others, he definitely follows her with his eyes almost pushes the trolley into her then is gone like a rocket with his camera on his back. What was the hurry for I wonder, what did he have on his mind ?

Ah, that's a camera ? It just looked like a rucksack to me.

kINGFISHER · Oct 23, 2011

. It would be a huge risk for the prosecution to go down this speculative avenue because, if the defence were able to produce the guy in Waitrose who happened to look vaguely similar to VT, the jury would immediately start to wonder how much else of the prosecution's evidence (much of which is hardly convincing) might be purely speculative.

Despite VT's admission of manslaughter, I dare say that the jury will be aware (as we here all are) that LE managed to charge entirely the wrong person at the start of this year. I would therefore expect that they will (as indeed they should) demand a high level of proof.
Sorry. I appreciate that you are convinced, but to prove ]that he was in Waitrose you need something like a till ticket with his credit card number on it or at least a CCTV shot of his car close to the entrance.

Do we have proof of him being Asda or do we ignore the CCTV footage, is it just a vague image that we cannot recognize. I don't think so . So would this evidence be dismissed.
The same applies in Waitrose, somewhere if he is in that store another image that we do not know about will be there of him entering the store. Many of us here would not need proof we can see as any fool can . But the one way to prove this for certain is for the Police to obtain the image of him entering the store ,then if this is not relevant then the Asda footage is not either. But then again they might have it.

Nausicaa · Oct 23, 2011

kINGFISHER said:
Many of us here would not need proof we can see as any fool can .

Just bear in mind, Kingfisher, that one day you may be accused yourself of a crime of which you are innocent, and if people are as cavalier as you are in convincing themselves that they have certainly identified someone seen only in a vague and distant image, you may be convicted.

It isn't him.

Sammyme · Oct 23, 2011

Curious Alice said:
Of course :banghead: I'm an idiot ! They would have seen the footage for Jo. Bottom of the class Alice :blushing:

I may as well join you there. :woohoo: I was thinking of the images of the male figure in the CCTV, not of Joanna.

As far as I know, the male figure in Waitrose has not been discussed in court or presented to the jury as a factor in the case.

kINGFISHER · Oct 23, 2011

Nausicaa said:
Just bear in mind, Kingfisher, that one day you may be accused yourself of a crime of which you are innocent, and if people are as cavalier as you are in convincing themselves that they have certainly identified someone seen only in a vague and distant image, you may be convicted.

It isn't him.

WOW I have had threats that sound like that before.

You sound as sure its not, as I am it is. Why are you so sure?

All I need say if there is no justice for Jo then I hope that no stone is left unturned and that every ounce of information is scrutinised to the core, including this particular subject.

whiterum · Oct 23, 2011

weeeva said:
Yes Whiterum, it rings true to me that VT came home on his bike and was seen by neighbours talking to CJ. But no one knows what was said. That is the only problem I have. What was said.
I do not assume that CJ told VT. I want to know for absolute definite. One hundred percent certainty. Beyond all reasonable doubt.
But alas it looks like I may never know.

The neighbour told the reporter that they heard CJ telling VT about the car.

He could also have seen JY returning on her own and with no car parked in their usual parking area knew GR was not there. But you are right weeeva that is a very significant point and the Pros didn't make it clear if he had definitely been told.

Sammyme · Oct 23, 2011

stmarysmead said:
I believe that there was some reason VT could not leave JY alive in that apartment.

In every instance in thus case, although he now decries his behavior, his "conscience" (such as it exists) was repeatedly inadequate in preventing him from doing what was in HIS best interests.

Leaving aside the killing for the moment, one might think this young intelligent young man might immediately call for help if he had accidentally hurt his neighbor and was totally shocked by the circumstances. But his next steps were in his OWN interests, not JY's.

Instead he sets out to make the girl's remains "disappear" and goes to great lengths to set up an alibi to protect himself. Again, it's all about HIM.

Soon, the frantic family appears, making appeals, begging for help, VT is not moved by any of this. He continues his charade. He thinks only of himself.

And then, he decides to help put the punishment for his crime on his innocent landlord. Every single time,at every opportunity, VT chose himself. His ability to observe the suffering he has caused and show no remorse is stunning for a man who killed by accident and is supposedly "normal."

I still believe that the circumstances around the killing of JY contain a secret that he is still loathe to be made known. Let's examine his story...if a clumsy pass is all that happens, VT backs out the door, and later tells his girlfriend,"Good Lord, our neighbor is one hysterical individual. She freaked out over nothing." I think most men would jump back at a scream...not grab the woman, cover her mouth and put hands on her neck. None of this "fits."

There is something that happened that he had to kill to keep Jo from repeating. Maybe something her injuries would prove.

And the nature of those actions and reactions which you describe on that night and subsequently is not only selfish but extreme and abnormal. Coming home from work and strangling a neighbour you barely know, after some fleeting encounter, carrying the body of someone you've just killed into beds and out of beds (if true), running back and forth between flats, turning off an oven, scattering clothes in the middle of the hall, hiding pizza / box, then running around a supermarket and leaving her body right along a roadside...carrying on as if nothing happened, implicating others...lying through your teeth and manufacturing stories that are patently untrue... It's almost easy when discussing the minutiae of it all, to slip into forgetting what is normality and be drawn into his weirdly dislocated world of fabrication and make-believe. But none of it is normal or the actions of a normal person.

It's hard to say what secret happening there would be. Nothing that has been suggested seems to fit somehow. I wonder if he has a habit of secretiveness and of not disclosing who he is or how he really is. Perhaps more about his life and character will come out after the trial, or indeed even during what remains of the trial.

Curious Alice · Oct 23, 2011

Sammyme said:
And the nature of those actions and reactions which you describe on that night and subsequently is not only selfish but extreme and abnormal. Coming home from work and strangling a neighbour you barely know, after some fleeting encounter, carrying the body of someone you've just killed into beds and out of beds (if true), running back and forth between flats, turning off an oven, scattering clothes in the middle of the hall, hiding pizza / box, then running around a supermarket and leaving her body right along a roadside...carrying on as if nothing happened, implicating others...lying through your teeth and manufacturing stories that are patently untrue... It's almost easy when discussing the minutiae of it all, to slip into forgetting what is normality and be drawn into his weirdly dislocated world of fabrication and make-believe. But none of it is normal or the actions of a normal person.

It's hard to say what secret happening there would be. Nothing that has been suggested seems to fit somehow. I wonder if he has a habit of secretiveness and of not disclosing who he is or how he really is. Perhaps more about his life and character will come out after the trial, or indeed even during what remains of the trial.

I think we are all keen to hear the summing up; the big picture is far more impactful than piecemeal information that is not in obvious chronological order.

whiterum · Oct 23, 2011

aneurin said:
Well it cost me a bar of chocolate last time round/QUOTE]

To complete the experiment could you try throwing her over a wall, though it may cost you an arm and a leg and maybe some severe bruising between the legs :hot:

kINGFISHER · Oct 23, 2011

curious alice said:
ah, that's a camera ? It just looked like a rucksack to me.

had another look at that it definately has a strap and the case although quite large is only seen at the waist. So to me that looks like a camera case.

Redgoblin · Oct 23, 2011

What is puzzling to me is the sexual twist to it. If there was no concrete evidence of VT actually committing any sexual acts why explore that area by the prosecution it does nothing to strengthen the case for murder IMO.

Speaking from my own experience (and I consider myself a very sane and chilled out kind of guy) I've only ever known of one situation in my life where things got out of hand, (I was in a relationship) when I was attacked by my partner with a baseball bat and to defend my self - I grabbed (I know it was wrong at the time and prompted my partner to ring the police) her neck and pushed her mid section and pinned her against the wall. It was purely an anger / self defence issue, and it occurred during the breakdown of a relationship, during a heated argument. It was a response to stop being whacked by a hard and potentially dangerous object. The police were actually very sympathetic believe it or not and advised me to dump/leave my partner, which I eventually did.

Anyway (20 odd years later), my point is this...I don't buy into the idea of her inviting him in, I don't buy his comment about the alleged comment about the 'cat going into places it shouldn't do like you', and I don't buy him coming on to her because I don't believe her death could have occurred without some major disagreement and escalation of events which IMO would of caused him if provoked to lose his temper. That scenario would actually work for me from a manslaughter type plea - I can understand him losing the plot if say she provoked him into a row or vice-versa, and then if they fought with each other, and an escalation of events occurred.

However the way it has been painted 'to have happened' only works if the perp is some freak, and by that I mean admitting to the sexual element of rape (which he wont can't or doesn't believe happened, I dunno statements/denials) or attempted which is also possible I suppose, but I just don't buy it the sanitised version.

If you're going down for a very serious offence like murder/manslaughter - why fail to disclose the full picture???

bees · Oct 23, 2011

If I were on the jury in this case, the main thing I'd have a problem with would be the amount of deceit practised by VT since he killed JY. Therefore, I'd have great difficulty believing his sanitised version of events presented in court and the repetitive "I dunno" and "I can't remember" when faced with tricky questions would just add to my suspicion that he DOES know and he CAN remember much more than he's prepared to say.

On balance though, I don't think there's been enough evidence to say for sure that he's guilty of murder rather than manslaughter so I'd have to go for not guilty.

Cherwell · Oct 23, 2011

bees said:
If I were on the jury in this case ....

.... I don't think there's been enough evidence to say for sure that he's guilty of murder rather than manslaughter so I'd have to go for not guilty.

What would swing it for me is the fact that he didn't make any attempt to call an ambulance or get help - even though by his own admission he entertained the possibility that she might still have been alive when he went back in there.

Guilty, m'lud! :gavel:

bijoux · Oct 23, 2011

bees said:
I'd have great difficulty believing his sanitised version of events presented in court and the repetitive "I dunno" and "I can't remember" when faced with tricky questions would just add to my suspicion that he DOES know and he CAN remember much more than he's prepared to say.

Attempted rape gone wrong. I think he rang the door bell and attacked her around 9pm as per witness testimony of a woman's screams.

I want to know his internet history.
I want to know if anything interesting happened in California.
Have there been unreported or reported incidents of sexual assaults involving him.
Did he stage the flat.
I want to know why he took the pizza. Was the oven really on? Was the pizza in the oven? Only 7-9 mins to heat the pizza. Did it even make it to the oven.
I want to know how he had the means to get in and out of JY's flat to remove her body and later the pizza and sock. Did he have the foresight to unlock the door before he left the first time.
What in heavens name was he doing with a dead body in his flat for 30-45 mins, if we go by NL's timeline.
So many more questions.

I hope we don't have to endure character witnesses tomorrow.

GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #15

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