Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. What do you think?

sean62185 said:

Who says she was a drug addict?

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Only SS does

sean62185 said:

How do we know she was a victim of anything?

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because we live on earth

sean62185 said:

The fact is we don't. Nobody does, if they did, this case would be closed. Somebody would possibly be in jail.

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It's good to be naive isn't it Sean? Let me tell you something from someone whose family business is criminal defense, there are so many murderers, rapists, and child molesters walking around free that you could give them their own state and it wouldn't be the smallest state in this country.

truthspider said:

Only SS does




because we live on earth



It's good to be naive isn't it Sean? Let me tell you something from someone whose family business is criminal defense, there are so many murderers, rapists, and child molesters walking around free that you could give them their own state and it wouldn't be the smallest state in this country.

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We live on earth isn't an anwser.. It's just a smug remark you used to try and deflect an answer you can't give with defnitive proof.

What does murderers, rapist, and child molesters have to do with the SG case? We have no proof she was murdered, raped, or molested. Nice try though.

Your responds was typical, from my observation. You lash out, with utter nonsense, in a smug way.. to try and make yourself look smarter than you really are. You gave me nothing in that post. No logical reasoning, no theory, no nothing. Your theory mostly involves you slandering a man, who probably has nothing to do with her death.

You have zero credibility to me, and probably most people who are open minded or lurking. All you do is try and make all this evidece that isn't there, fit into your theory on How it has to be this one man, It has to be him. You are focusing on this one person and quite frankley it appears to be an obsession. It's scary.

IMO, SCPD does not have any intention of bringing these cases to a conclusion. If they did they would release:

Pictures of the shoe that was found and ID whose remains it was found nearest to...

Pictures of the Burlap

Pictures of any ligatures that were found on any of the GB4

Pictures of the blanket that the Toddler was wrapped in...

If LE did so, then someone might recognize or be able to identify where the items came from or say if they had seen them somewhere or sometime.

Other escorts and prostitutes may have seen these items at a previous job/client's abode.

Finally, one has to wonder, WHY have they not tried to do facial reconstruction followed by a release of a composite sketch of the TODDLER and her mother. Someone might recognize them.

Until LE releases either more evidence or makes some new statement, then there is really little left to bicker over.

Since December 2011, we have only been told:
LE found SG and some of her belongings
ME states SG COD is Undetermined
Two bodies were recovered in Manorville and one is likely not related to the previous killings.
An arsonist set fire to an area within Manorville and near the Brookhaven Institute.

Other than the above, IIRC, nothing else has been released by LE.

sean62185 said:

Who says she was a drug addict?

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Here is one of many sources;

Gilbert, who had always felt self-conscious about her looks, was dropping weight quickly, and her stomach was flat as a board, Diaz said.

She started using cocaine and Ecstasy, he said. If a woman agreed to use drugs with johns, she could bring in more money, Diaz said.

Gilbert had "several abortions," thinking it wasn’t a good choice to have a kid, Diaz said.

Money was flowing in, and Gilbert doled out clothes and cash to family, according to Diaz and Shannan’s sister. But when Lace Party Girls was shut down, the money flow was cut off and the couple moved into the Jersey City home of Diaz’s father to save money. Arguments between the two became more frequent, said Diaz, as Gilbert tried to pick up work with other agencies.

One night, Gilbert came home intoxicated and started a fight, Diaz said.

"I retaliated and hit her back," he said. "I hit her too hard."

The punch fractured the left side of her jaw, which needed a metal plate to be fixed, he said. The plate would make her body easily identifiable, should it be found.

For the five or six months before her disappearance, Gilbert worked independently, Diaz said.

She figured if she worked with just a driver, rather than an agency, she would split the profit two ways, rather than three, according to Diaz.

She booked appointments about twice a week and brought in about $200 to $250 per hour, Diaz said. About $50 of that would go to her new driver, Michael Pak.

Even though Diaz was unemployed, Gilbert could afford new furniture and a plasma TV for their apartment close to the Grove Street PATH train. The living room was stacked with DVDs, which Gilbert bought one-by-one during frequent trips to Target.

On a Friday, April 30, 2010, the new Freddy Krueger movie was opening. The two stopped by Taco Bell and snuck the food into a local theater, Diaz said.

Later, Diaz knew where she was going. By this time, the couple had moved out on their own and a $1,100 rent check was due on May 1, he said.

Dressed in slim-fitting jeans, a tank top, brown leather jacket and strappy, black sandals, Gilbert left for the evening, heading to Manhattan to meet Pak.

The door slammed with a thud, extra hard for some reason, as Diaz remembers it.

He hasn’t seen her since, he said.

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-Source

Mr. B said: "...And to me, someone who fell into that drug swamp of problems and dies in the consequence is a sad story as much as someone, who got picked by an insane serial killer. So yes, bad things happen and they are sad....".
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SS says:Mr. B, I believe that is possible, Shannan was scared to death and believed that someone was trying to kill her. She was trying to hide. She could have been hiding in that swamp. Personally, though I don't believe that is what caused her death, but like you, I am not privy to the facts that the homicide investigators have.

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Mr. B said: "However, I am also not openly SK-friendly. I will never get the point in it is better to be killed by an SK than by an accident. Personally, I can't deny a certain relief, that Shanna Gilbert at least hadn't to go through that. THAT in this case means to be snatched, kept and tortured for a few days before being strangulated. So why do you wish, she would have gone through this? Why do you wish it so much that you try to construct wild theories to make it look like she went through that mill? Do you get anything out of it?"
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SS says: Of course I hope that didn't happen! But Shannan's family openly expressed that they adamantly believe that Shannan was murdered! Her mother seems repulsed by the suggestion that it was an accident. And I believe Mothers have that special something, that gut feeling, when something terrible has happened to their child. And I believe the circumstances support her gut feeling.[/COLOR]
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Mr. B said:
"And since we are at asking questions: Is there any reason, that you jump in with the same ******** after Truth got just stopped at it? Always? This gets slowly old. I mean, okay, I think, I know who you were on the defunct LISK board and there you were often an overly faithful follower of Fluke, so did you find yourself a new master who does the thinking for you? Questions over questions, Samantha. Care to answer them?"
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SS says, "I made it very clear who I was when I first posted on this board. It didn't take much to figure it out. My main goal is to support the victims' families. I am not a homicide investigator and I know that since I do not know all the facts there is no way I can solve this case. I can just do my part to keep attention on it and support the people who care.

And although you may be my intellectual superior, gifted in logic and statistical analysis with an IQ way above the level of a carrot, without having direct access to the crimescene, all the evidence, and extensive training and experience as a homicide investigator, your speculation isn't much better than the rest of us, except for those who have access to people within the community who can fill them in on certain details.
It's frustrating, I know, but THAT's the reality.

Oh, and I think for myself as you can see from my ridiculous theories.
Fluke and Truthspider are way much smarter than me. I will now refer to Truth and Fluke as master.

Peter[/QUOTE]

truthspider said:

Let me tell you something from someone whose family business is criminal defense, there are so many murderers, rapists, and child molesters walking around free that you could give them their own state and it wouldn't be the smallest state in this country.

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Funny thing with that part, Truthspider. You used a certain name in the article in the UK, remember? And later you claimed, your dad was an ADA and still later, he is defense lawyer now. Only with the name you used in the UK article, no former ADA pops up, nor a lawyer specialized in criminal law. Maybe maybe maybe, I only do something wrong with the search engines. Maybe ...

Originally Posted by Seaslug44
Where would drug induced coma, heart attack, stroke or passing out & dying of hypothermia fit in?

What is the probability I ask again, that on a relatively warm morning SG would die of hypothermia? (not likely)

If it was a drug induced coma, the coma risk probably would decrease as time passed. If she had the drugs at JB's; a considerable amount of time had passed (hours) until she reached the place her remains were found (not likely)

Heart Attack, Stroke? Any reason to believe she had Cardio problems? Family History? Obesity? Angina? High Blood Pressure? (not likely cause of death)

Seaslug44, anything is possible, but I think we should focus on probable.

MOO

Samantha Spade said:

Mr. B said: "...And to me, someone who fell into that drug swamp of problems and dies in the consequence is a sad story as much as someone, who got picked by an insane serial killer. So yes, bad things happen and they are sad....".
------------------------------
SS says:Mr. B, I believe that is possible, Shannan was scared to death and believed that someone was trying to kill her. She was trying to hide. She could have been hiding in that swamp. Personally, though I don't believe that is what caused her death, but like you, I am not privy to the facts that the homicide investigators have.

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Lets make clear the term "drug swamp" didn't refer to Long Island nor any other specific geographic location. I used this metaphor to express what the problem with drug addiction is. It's like something gluey that always tries to pull the addict the addict back. But oh well, when you are calmed down a bit, you can read the post again and maybe completely.

Samantha Spade said:

--------------------------------
Mr. B said: "However, I am also not openly SK-friendly. I will never get the point in it is better to be killed by an SK than by an accident. Personally, I can't deny a certain relief, that Shanna Gilbert at least hadn't to go through that. THAT in this case means to be snatched, kept and tortured for a few days before being strangulated. So why do you wish, she would have gone through this? Why do you wish it so much that you try to construct wild theories to make it look like she went through that mill? Do you get anything out of it?"
-------------------------------
SS says: Of course I hope that didn't happen! But Shannan's family openly expressed that they adamantly believe that Shannan was murdered! Her mother seems repulsed by the suggestion that it was an accident. And I believe Mothers have that special something, that gut feeling, when something terrible has happened to their child. And I believe the circumstances support her gut feeling.[/COLOR]

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And this is all BELIEVE and not one fact. So, feel free to believe what you want, that is covered by the Constitution.

Samantha Spade said:

-----------------------------------------
Mr. B said:
"And since we are at asking questions: Is there any reason, that you jump in with the same ******** after Truth got just stopped at it? Always? This gets slowly old. I mean, okay, I think, I know who you were on the defunct LISK board and there you were often an overly faithful follower of Fluke, so did you find yourself a new master who does the thinking for you? Questions over questions, Samantha. Care to answer them?"
----------------------
SS says, "I made it very clear who I was when I first posted on this board. It didn't take much to figure it out. My main goal is to support the victims' families. I am not a homicide investigator and I know that since I do not know all the facts there is no way I can solve this case. I can just do my part to keep attention on it and support the people who care.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, on this board are some people who actually want to solve cases. Of course, because none of us is officially member of any LE authority, chances are slim, those guys will listen, but at least, we try.

Samantha Spade said:

And although you may be my intellectual superior, gifted in logic and statistical analysis with an IQ way above the level of a carrot, without having direct access to the crimescene, all the evidence, and extensive training and experience as a homicide investigator, your speculation isn't much better than the rest of us, except for those who have access to people within the community who can fill them in on certain details.
It's frustrating, I know, but THAT's the reality.

Click to expand...

How would I know whether my IQ is higher than yours if I don't know yours? And then, IQ isn't everything. IQ doesn't really determine what you fo, only how effective you do it after you decided to do anything at all. Rifkin has an IQ of 128 and still, he was in many aspects unable to live. So, the mere IQ in itself isn't everything,, it is what you do with it. But admittedly, my IQ is high enough to afford to dismiss IQ as measure of all things.
The other argument, I heard in the meantime a hundred times (at least). There is always someone who brings it up. But here's the rub: The guys who bring it up all the time, especially in LE, have yet to prove, they are right by actually catching an SK. While the guys who use that techniques, have proven it. Sure, the lack of information is an obstacle, and with access to the complete casefile, my profile would be much richer in the details. However, I did profiles before and those were correct. Of course, after that point, it's in the hands of LE to use it or not. Thus, the responsibility to not look at the traffic tapes for example is SCPD's not mine.

Samantha Spade said:

Oh, and I think for myself as you can see from my ridiculous theories.
Fluke and Truthspider are way much smarter than me. I will now refer to Truth and Fluke as master.

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Now, that was exactly the answer, we would expect from a subdominant partner or any other follower type, wouldn't it? So maybe you want to reword it, before we get the wrong impression here.

Peter

WINDSOR said:

Originally Posted by Seaslug44
Where would drug induced coma, heart attack, stroke or passing out & dying of hypothermia fit in?

What is the probability I ask again, that on a relatively warm morning SG would die of hypothermia? (not likely)

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Funny thing, but after a body is wet, for example by sweat or running through enough puddles, the loss of body warmth is pretty significant. 65F is about 18C. This is, for a wet body or with wet clothes cold enough for a significant loss of body heat, especially if drugs were involved that have effects on the body's temperature controlling, like for example ecstasy derivates.
By the way, divers for example wear full neoprene in 18C cold water because they would cool out in less than twenty minutes.

WINDSOR said:

If it was a drug induced coma, the coma risk probably would decrease as time passed. If she had the drugs at JB's; a considerable amount of time had passed (hours) until she reached the place her remains were found (not likely)

Heart Attack, Stroke? Any reason to believe she had Cardio problems? Family History? Obesity? Angina? High Blood Pressure? (not likely cause of death)

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Some combinations reach the peak effect only hours after the drugs were taken. Which is the reason why in the raver party era so many kids appeared only hours later in ERs and died there from strokes, cardiac arrests and so on. Kids without any previous history of cardiac problems.
So together with panic, a temperature of just about 18C, bodily work (as in running), it's in fact quite likely.

WINDSOR said:

Seaslug44, anything is possible, but I think we should focus on probable.

MOO

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Well, Seaslug did. So, what's the problem?

Peter

WINDSOR said:

Originally Posted by Seaslug44
Where would drug induced coma, heart attack, stroke or passing out & dying of hypothermia fit in?

What is the probability I ask again, that on a relatively warm morning SG would die of hypothermia? (not likely)

If it was a drug induced coma, the coma risk probably would decrease as time passed. If she had the drugs at JB's; a considerable amount of time had passed (hours) until she reached the place her remains were found (not likely)

Heart Attack, Stroke? Any reason to believe she had Cardio problems? Family History? Obesity? Angina? High Blood Pressure? (not likely cause of death)

Seaslug44, anything is possible, but I think we should focus on probable.

MOO

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Well for starters her final resting place is about a five to seven minute walk from JB's house. Running or jogging it's less than five minutes (NOT HOURS).

You do not need a family history of medical disorders for a person who drinks alcohol to the point of intoxication, uses both ecstasy & cocaine and who had just recently lost a great deal of weight to be overcome by a heart attack or stroke. We also do not know what kind of toll the pregnancies/abortions had on her physically.

Weird, I get again notification mails, but then the post isn't showing: This time, it was a Redbird post:

Dear Peter Brendt,

Redbird has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. What do you think? - in the Long Island Serial Killer forum of Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community.

This thread is located at:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162330&goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
You have destroyed this forum. You are slandering the victim. I don't understand why you are being allowed to take over and insult and argue with every other poster.
***************


There may also be other replies, but you will not receive any more notifications until you visit the forum again.

All the best,
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Hummm ... either a mod stroke fast or something very weird is going on.

And to comment on that:

The denial to see facts of the victim's life implicates the thought of "if this is true, she deserved it". So, who is slandering the victim? The one who says "sorry, those are the facts" or the one who says "She deserved it, but the SK deserves it more" and thus show only interest because of the insane whacko who is around at the same time is so intriguing? Just a question.

Peter

Where is there any proof that SG used drugs on the night she disappeared?

Where is there any proof that SG had numerous abortions?

Why are there people on this board who continue to blame the victim?

Statements made by john's, pimps and abusive boyfriends are not proof of anything because they are also blaming the victim and trying to cover their own ars.

BKS said:

Where is there any proof that SG used drugs on the night she disappeared?

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In incoherent 911 phone call, a history of drug abuse, Coletti'S description of a dishevelled woman in hysteria ...

BKS said:

Where is there any proof that SG had numerous abortions?

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That stems from the interview, I think 48 Hours made with her pimp

BKS said:

Why are there people on this board who continue to blame the victim?

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It's called reality check and it has nothing to do with slander. Are you calling to ban every person using logic? That would be such a sad picture.

BKS said:

Statements made by john's, pimps and abusive boyfriends are not proof of anything because they are also blaming the victim and trying to cover their own ars.

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The statement of any person, who has no profit in making that statement has a lot of credibility. Especially if the pimp, the john, the driver, an independent witness and her 911 call, as are the fact, that she sat there and was able to talk to the operator for 23 minutes without anybody attempting to kill her, are consistent.

Peter

An incoherent 911 phone call and running for help in hysteria proves someone was trying to kill her. People are not calm in those situations. She had her wits about her enough to call 911, to escape and to seek help.

There is absolutely no proof that SG was using drugs on the night she disappeared! Absolutely none. Nor is there any proof that SG had numerous abortions.

Statements made by john's, pimps and abusive boyfriends in this case are not proof of anything because they are also blaming the victim and trying to cover their own ars. I don't care where they said it. TV shows don't require honesty.

1.The ONLY information we can rely on is: SG was a prostitute working from a website. 2. She had a date the night she disappeared. 3. 10 other bodies have since been found in the same area. 4. 4 of those bodies were of prostitutes that worked from websites.
5. SG is dead after turning a trick in the same area.

WHY are you folks trying to put square pegs into round holes? The case has to be worked as a homicide until such time the evidence leads you in another direction.

The M.E. can not determine the cause of death. The ME couldn't make a determination of death in another prostitute death. A man was convicted of stranguling the woman and said she just died while in the car. She was buried for a month and a half. He went to trial and was convicted of murder. The ME 'works well' with the DA and PD. In this case there was no evidence of stangulation. The suspect believed she died from a drug overdose or some other related cause due to drugs. How this guy got convicted of murder without a cause of death is still a mystery to me.

Some of you folks suffer from thinking too much.

The false rumor of the nursery owner being the killer was put out there by somebody. Who do you think it came from, the Easter Bunny?

The papers said the police resumed their search for SG because the police had a 'tip.' Where could the tip have come from if someone didn't have a good idea where SG was?

BKS said:

An incoherent 911 phone call and running for help in hysteria proves someone was trying to kill her. People are not calm in those situations. She had her wits about her enough to call 911, to escape and to seek help.

There is absolutely no proof that SG was using drugs on the night she disappeared! Absolutely none. Nor is there any proof that SG had numerous abortions.

Statements made by john's, pimps and abusive boyfriends in this case are not proof of anything because they are also blaming the victim and trying to cover their own ars. I don't care where they said it. TV shows don't require honesty.

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So according to your logic, and since there is no evidence, absolute no evidence for murder either, we have to doubt, SG is even dead. And since she is probably not even dead, we don't need to waste time and can go home, leaving the bunch here spinning conspiracy theories about one-legged doctors at their heart's will. Is that, what this whole riot is about? Just pushing off everything, that doesn't fit the preconceived opinion? By all means and with all under the belt attacks at your disposal?

hawkshaw said:

1.The ONLY information we can rely on is: SG was a prostitute working from a website. 2. She had a date the night she disappeared. 3. 10 other bodies have since been found in the same area. 4. 4 of those bodies were of prostitutes that worked from websites.
5. SG is dead after turning a trick in the same area.

WHY are you folks trying to put square pegs into round holes? The case has to be worked as a homicide until such time the evidence leads you in another direction.

The M.E. can not determine the cause of death. The ME couldn't make a determination of death in another prostitute death. A man was convicted of stranguling the woman and said she just died while in the car. She was buried for a month and a half. He went to trial and was convicted of murder. The ME 'works well' with the DA and PD. In this case there was no evidence of stangulation. The suspect believed she died from a drug overdose or some other related cause due to drugs. How this guy got convicted of murder without a cause of death is still a mystery to me.

Some of you folks suffer from thinking too much.

The false rumor of the nursery owner being the killer was put out there by somebody. Who do you think it came from, the Easter Bunny?

The papers said the police resumed their search for SG because the police had a 'tip.' Where could the tip have come from if someone didn't have a good idea where SG was?

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Honestly, I think the tip may have come from FBI research into this case, possibly the aerial photos? Or maybe someone in LE suddenly came to their senses and decided to search the most logical place. Otherwise, the person who gave the tip knows a lot more!

Or the tip came from the person who put out the false rumor (we'll call him the Easter Bunny) about the landscape business owner. The SK knew where the body was and the timing of it all it fit so well in the story line.

BKS said:

An incoherent 911 phone call and running for help in hysteria proves someone was trying to kill her. People are not calm in those situations. She had her wits about her enough to call 911, to escape and to seek help.

There is absolutely no proof that SG was using drugs on the night she disappeared! Absolutely none. Nor is there any proof that SG had numerous abortions.

Statements made by john's, pimps and abusive boyfriends in this case are not proof of anything because they are also blaming the victim and trying to cover their own ars. I don't care where they said it. TV shows don't require honesty.

Click to expand...

Okay, if you wish so, ignore everything not fitting your theory and sit here another 20 years. That's fine by me. You work your angle, I work mine. But stop this under the belt attacks. This is nothing but just another variant of an overkill of arguments, you don't want to hear. It doesn't work.

Peter

As you say, "Let's focus on the probable." Those who want to argue ridiculous claims of suicide and other nonsense are not being fair to the rest of us on this board. We are not writing a novel here and this is not about who has the highest IQ etc. A young girl went missing on LI. Her death was either a tragic accident or she was murdered. We are supposed to be helping here, not posturing for power on a website.