Where Did JR Go To Check Mail?

otg said:

Exactly, my Ozzie friend.

Ever have or use a wall phone like the one in the R kitchen -- the one where the 911-call was supposedly made from?

What holds the receiver in place?

When the receiver is placed in the cradle, a small tab catches it with a corresponding slot in the speaker (top) end, which causes the connection to end as it slides into place. Right? If it’s not placed there properly, it falls. How could anyone think they had hung this kind of phone up, and not see or even notice the noise it made when it fell to the countertop below?

But what if you do the same thing with a desk phone?

With this type of phone, if you don’t place the receiver exactly in its cradle (a little too high, a little too low, a little too much to the side), it could easily go unnoticed that it didn’t fall into place and end the connection. It wouldn’t fall two or three feet to the counter below, it wouldn’t make a loud noise, it could easily sit there as if you had simply sat the receiver down to go get something without hanging up. The person on the other end of the connection would hear everything said in the room that was said loud enough to hear.

That is what I believe happened at the end of the 911-call where JR’s and BR’s voices can be heard. Patsy heard them talking in the background and didn't want the 911 operator to hear them. So she hurried to end the call, quickly slamming down the receiver -- not noticing that she hadn’t hung it up

This is the phone that was in the basement:

(When she did see that it wasn’t hung up, she probably had underwear that matched JonBenet’s.)
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I tried an experiment using my own phone - a different model than what the Rs had - which is made so that it can be mounted on the wall, or set on a table. With the phone in the wall position, it is possible to set the handset back on the base w/o fully hanging up the phone, but w/o the handset falling either.

I still think you have a very interesting theory, and my experiment certainly doesn't prove anything as my phone is different. But you can't rule out the possibility of the call being made from the kitchen.

With our phone, it is kept on the table not mounted to the wall, not hanging up completely is a common problem.

otg said:

I don't think the technology existed (at the time at least) to identify an individual phone. They are both the same model of phone. I don't know if the thought ever occurred to investigators or if they simply took for granted that the call was made from the kitchen where the RN was written and found.

If you accept as fact that JR's and BR's voices are on the 911-call (Kolar tells us now that this was first noticed by the 911 operator who took the call), and if the call was made from the basement, there can be no denying that all three R's knew at that time that JonBenet was dead.

Have you listened to the 911 recording? There is no sound at the end like what would be expected from dropping the receiver two to three feet onto the countertop. And BR's voice can clearly be heard. The receiver could not have stayed in placed on the phone base without ending the call. Period.
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otg,

If you accept as fact that JR's and BR's voices are on the 911-call (Kolar tells us now that this was first noticed by the 911 operator who took the call), and if the call was made from the basement, there can be no denying that all three R's knew at that time that JonBenet was dead.

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Yes, I reckon you are correct here. Too many people give Burke a pass because of his age, or that he just fell out of bed, all nonsense of course, because he can be heard on the 911 call, and he would have had to be briefed as to the R's version of events, e.g. John and Burke played with a train set, the night before, Burke slept all night and heard nothing, etc. So yes he probably knew not only was JonBenet allegedly missing, but that she was dead, and that his parents were presenting a staged crime-scene via the 911 call!

Have you listened to the 911 recording?

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Yes I have and you are correct, and something else that happens on that phone arrangement is that when it falls, it usually swings for a few seconds, with the sound being transmitted down the line. e.g. more than one bang!

That they might have been in the basement makes more sense, especially from a ransom note writing perspective, e.g. somewhere to author the note.



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Chrishope said:

But if it's not BDI (and it probably wasn't) then he would need clarification.



In order for your theory to make any sense JR would have have been looking for something. But he needn't look, as he knows where everything and everyone is. Or at least BR would have to think JR was looking for something. Why would BR think that? If he'd been briefed he already knew what he needed to know.

I'm curious, what do you think JR was looking for?

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Chrishope,
To all intents and purposes Burke knew full well what his parents were undertaking via the 911 call. Probably not all the implications or fine details but as a general outline, I am happy he was aware.

All three R's at the point of the 911 call, knew there was no going back, metaphorically they had pressed the button.

As for JR I get the impression that he had been away and on returning Burke asked him his question, maybe John had the flashlight in his hand, thus eliciting the query. Obviously given the context he must have been searching either the basement or JonBenet's bedroom. Returning to give Patsy the all clear?

Burke has the expectation that John might have found something, he can only think this if he assumes John has been looking for something.

Common sense suggests John was checking over the staged arrangements, with Burke then asking did you find anything. To which John declines to answer, denying Burke any further information, just in case!


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Chrishope said:

I tried an experiment using my own phone - a different model than what the Rs had - which is made so that it can be mounted on the wall, or set on a table. With the phone in the wall position, it is possible to set the handset back on the base w/o fully hanging up the phone, but w/o the handset falling either.

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What model of phone do you have? What keeps the receiver in place when in the wall mount position? Most that are made for dual use have a little piece of plastic that either slides up for wall mount, or they have an inner spring holding the plastic tab in place that is rotated 180 degrees for wall/desk mount.

I still think you have a very interesting theory, and my experiment certainly doesn't prove anything as my phone is different. But you can't rule out the possibility of the call being made from the kitchen.

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Rule out the possibility? Perhaps not completely (principle of plenitude). But IMO, it's very likely, and a shame the police didn't at least consider it.

With our phone, it is kept on the table not mounted to the wall, not hanging up completely is a common problem.

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May I suggest then that you never kill someone, call the police, and then talk about it with anyone there in your home until you verify that you indeed hung up. :notgood:
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UKGuy said:

Chrishope,
To all intents and purposes Burke knew full well what his parents were undertaking via the 911 call. Probably not all the implications or fine details but as a general outline, I am happy he was aware.

All three R's at the point of the 911 call, knew there was no going back, metaphorically they had pressed the button.

As for JR I get the impression that he had been away and on returning Burke asked him his question, maybe John had the flashlight in his hand, thus eliciting the query. Obviously given the context he must have been searching either the basement or JonBenet's bedroom. Returning to give Patsy the all clear?

Burke has the expectation that John might have found something, he can only think this if he assumes John has been looking for something.

Common sense suggests John was checking over the staged arrangements, with Burke then asking did you find anything. To which John declines to answer, denying Burke any further information, just in case!


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Common sense suggests John was checking over the staged arrangements, with Burke then asking did you find anything. To which John declines to answer, denying Burke any further information, just in case!

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We can agree to disagree (and I guess we'll have to) but IMO common sense says that he overheard his mother talking on the phone about finding the note and the question pertains to that.

As for JR I get the impression that he had been away and on returning Burke asked him his question, maybe John had the flashlight in his hand, thus eliciting the query. Obviously given the context he must have been searching either the basement or JonBenet's bedroom. Returning to give Patsy the all clear?

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I don't see what gives you that impression. By the time BR asks the question, PR is already well into the 911 call. In fact, the call is done, and what we hear -on the enhanced tape- is supposed to have taken place after she failed to completely hang up the phone. So JR can't have been arriving on scene to give her the all clear at that point. (At least not if "all clear" means they are ready to proceed with the 911 call) I can't really see JR going off somewhere during the 911 call.

I'm still wondering why you ignore the "Please, what do I do?" question. That seems much better grist for the BDI mill. (http://www.acandyrose.com/12261996-911.htm) (PMPT p. 286)

otg said:

What model of phone do you have? What keeps the receiver in place when in the wall mount position? Most that are made for dual use have a little piece of plastic that either slides up for wall mount, or they have an inner spring holding the plastic tab in place that is rotated 180 degrees for wall/desk mount.

Rule out the possibility? Perhaps not completely (principle of plenitude). But IMO, it's very likely, and a shame the police didn't at least consider it.

May I suggest then that you never kill someone, call the police, and then talk about it with anyone there in your home until you verify that you indeed hung up. :notgood:
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Ours is an ATT 210. It's about 1/3 the width of the Rs phone and has nowhere near as many buttons. The key pad is in the handset. It can be mounted to the wall by sliding it down over two screws in the wall. All that keeps the receiver in place is the base itself. It's designed to work in either position. What actually hangs up the phone is a little plastic switch that toggles in and out. If that switch is fully depressed against the base, the phone is hung up properly. If not, it's still connected. You'd have to hang up slow and gently to get it to rest on the base w/o disconnecting, but it's possible.

It's still a good theory, and may well be the case.

Chrishope said:

We can agree to disagree (and I guess we'll have to) but IMO common sense says that he overheard his mother talking on the phone about finding the note and the question pertains to that.

I don't see what gives you that impression. By the time BR asks the question, PR is already well into the 911 call. In fact, the call is done, and what we hear -on the enhanced tape- is supposed to have taken place after she failed to completely hang up the phone. So JR can't have been arriving on scene to give her the all clear at that point. (At least not if "all clear" means they are ready to proceed with the 911 call) I can't really see JR going off somewhere during the 911 call.

I'm still wondering why you ignore the "Please, what do I do?" question. That seems much better grist for the BDI mill. (http://www.acandyrose.com/12261996-911.htm) (PMPT p. 286)

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Chrishope,

I'm still wondering why you ignore the "Please, what do I do?" question. That seems much better grist for

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I'm not ignoring it. I cannot make inferences from it, with the same degree of confidence that I can with regard to the "What did you find", which is past tense, and on a basic interpretation has Burke querying his father as to what he found, it cannot be the RN, since as you suggest Burke is there to hear his mother state she found it.

Speculating about the question: "Please, what do I do?". Burke seems to be requesting clarification about his upcoming role in the staged presentation.

Some of the evidence published in Kolar's book now makes BDI a more likely theory, e.g. the parents covered it all up for Burke. Maybe this was the rationale behind relocating Burke so early that morning, with him being a percieved weak link, in terms of potential interview mistakes?


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Chrishope said:

Ours is an ATT 210. It's about 1/3 the width of the Rs phone and has nowhere near as many buttons. The key pad is in the handset. It can be mounted to the wall by sliding it down over two screws in the wall. All that keeps the receiver in place is the base itself. It's designed to work in either position. What actually hangs up the phone is a little plastic switch that toggles in and out. If that switch is fully depressed against the base, the phone is hung up properly. If not, it's still connected. You'd have to hang up slow and gently to get it to rest on the base w/o disconnecting, but it's possible.

It's still a good theory, and may well be the case.

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Chrishope, you didn't mention that you flipped the tab that keeps it in place, so I guess you didn't read the instructions that came with it.




If you lost your instructions, here's a link:
http://att.vtp-media.com/ecp/documents/product_Product/201/UserManual/5747/210_manual_p2_i9.pdf

I can balance a coin on a flat surface so that it will balance on its edge, but what are the chances that I can drop it and have it land and rest on its edge? It's not impossible, but it's unlikely.

Can you balance a phone receiver on its base so it doesn't hang up? Yes, but not if you're in a hurry and not paying close attention to it -- or deliberately trying.
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otg said:

Chrishope, you didn't mention that you flipped the tab that keeps it in place, so I guess you didn't read the instructions that came with it.

If you lost your instructions, here's a link:
http://att.vtp-media.com/ecp/documents/product_Product/201/UserManual/5747/210_manual_p2_i9.pdf

I can balance a coin on a flat surface so that it will balance on its edge, but what are the chances that I can drop it and have it land and rest on its edge? It's not impossible, but it's unlikely.

Can you balance a phone receiver on its base so it doesn't hang up? Yes, but not if you're in a hurry and not paying close attention to it -- or deliberately trying.
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Not only did I not read the instructions, I threw them away immediately as we had no intention of mounting it to the wall. We've had this phone for quite a few years.

My previous experiment was done by holding the phone against the wall to simulate it being mounted on the wall.

I did the experiment again, just now, after reversing the plastic tab under the card. I can still get it to stay on the base while not disconnecting the phone. In fact it is easier to hang up w/o disconnecting with the tab reversed because it gives the receiver something to hang on. It's not nearly as hard as balancing a coin. I repeated the experiment several times, and found that failure to hang up completely is most likely when the receiver is placed slowly and gently back in place. I don't mean ridiculously slowly and gently - that tends to result in the receiver falling. Slow and gentle the way someone might do if their mind is somewhere else.

The key really is whether or not the little gray plastic button on the receiver is fully depressed or not. The pictures don't show it, but this button is about a half inch square, and immediately under the earphone part of the receiver. If it's fully depressed, the phone disconnects. The underside of the earpiece is flat, so it provides ample space to "hang up" without forcing the button to depress. With the tab reversed it's even easier as the phone (receiver) can be out of alignment with the base and still not fall off.

Of course, as we discussed yesterday, my phone is not the same model the Rs had. Mine is cheap and basic. I am not saying that the Rs phone can be hung back on the "hook" w/o disconnecting. At the same time, I don't think you can dismiss the possibility w/o testing that same model of phone.

It's an interesting theory, but don't convince yourself until all the evidence is in. My phone can be off the hook w/o falling off the base, in the wall mount position. And no "balancing act" extremely careful manipulation is required. Can the Rs phone ? We don't know.


Thanks for the info. If I ever decide to mount it to the wall, I now know about reversing the plastic tab.

Chrishope said:

Here's a different way to look at it. BR asks "What did you find?"

Instead of asking about forensic evidence, it may be he was asking a simple open ended question, because he knew his parents were looking for something. IOWs one parent might have said something along the lines of "I'll check the basement" and BR asks, "What did you find?" Or one parent might have said "Look! I just found this" (This might have been said in reference to the RN) it would be natural for BR to ask what was found.

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I think you hit the nail on the head here.........what did you find......referring to the RN......if it was actually B speaking on the tape.

UKGuy said:

Chrishope,

I'm not ignoring it. I cannot make inferences from it, with the same degree of confidence that I can with regard to the "What did you find", which is past tense, and on a basic interpretation has Burke querying his father as to what he found, it cannot be the RN, since as you suggest Burke is there to hear his mother state she found it.

Speculating about the question: "Please, what do I do?". Burke seems to be requesting clarification about his upcoming role in the staged presentation.

Some of the evidence published in Kolar's book now makes BDI a more likely theory, e.g. the parents covered it all up for Burke. Maybe this was the rationale behind relocating Burke so early that morning, with him being a percieved weak link, in terms of potential interview mistakes?


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no, of course it can be the RN...Patsy was hysterical you can hear her hyperventilating on that tape...he wouldnt know that her referring to a note was what was found or what it meant.

You know, I'm going to say something that some may not know, or some may and just wish I'd shut up about it--that would be old-timers who have been through this mess for 15 years. But this is fact, and it's my fact because this I saw and heard with my own eyes and ears, but I can't prove it. We've argued about this for years, so take it or leave it.

Before I ever came online to learn more and discuss this case in 2000--after reading Thomas' book and deciding I'd take the Internet plunge again, after my first expensive, failed attempt back in 1994, when they charged you by the minute: I got most of my news about this case from mainstream media. Mostly back than it was on the then highly respected local and national nightly news on the 3 major networks. Some newsprint and magazines wrote about the case, and cable news was actually better then, but if you weren't online, you didn't get the daily hubbub that was coming out in the Colorado news media--just FYI to set up the following.

In those days, no one I knew thought about or cared about the JB case. I never talked to anyone about it in my personal life--the true crime genre was my hobby, not theirs. So what I read in the print media or heard on TV, even the cable news, like Geraldo's nightly show, was just for my interest. I never dreamed of taping on my VHS machine, never thought to save stuff at all. In fact, I did not even read the tabloids about this case, though they screamed the headlines in the supermarket, of course--yes, I was too much a snob to be seen looking at or buying those. (However, I did discover that my father had a subscription for the NE and saved them like old people do, so when I'd go visit him, I would secretly read about the JB case and feel guilty the whole time. lol)

Oh, those were days of innocent intellectualism for me, I guess. I even stuck my nose up at Geraldo's disgracefully trashy daytime talk show. :blush: But I did watch the NIGHT TIME Geraldo show, where he discussed cases of the day, which had started with the OJ trial, of course.

All by way of setting up the circumstances that lead me to the following odd occurrence:

One night, before 2000 and before I ever dreamed I'd spend all these years on this case on the Internet, Geraldo played the enhanced 911 tape, or a copy he had received. The channel ran ads for about a day that he had the tape and was going to play it. It didn't seem that big a deal, in terms of playing 911 calls, truly. TV programs have played 911 calls for many years before that. I did know about the case and was following his show every night anyway, so I listened to it. He played the tape--the ENHANCED tape, which it actually took me a few more years to differentiate between the 911 call and the enhanced tape even after all this.

What I heard was this: muddled voices without any clear diction. Geraldo and his one guest who was there for commentary said they couldn't make out the words, either. The tape was played a few times, with the "words" on the screen, but what I took from it was the tone of the "other" voices. Clearly one was an older man, one was a higher pitched voice like a child's. The man's voice was harsh, and the child-like voice was pleading.

And that was it. This episode has gone down in the annals of forum history as a notoriously debated issue because the cable channel not only didn't air the "tape" segment in the rerun of the episode later that night, but it had a message at the beginning saying there was some issue with the segment--which I learned much later. It was so thoroughly wiped off the show, it did not even get included in the transcripts or tapes you could once look up and/or buy online of each show. Years later, after being called liars by so many people, some of us actually called the transcription company and tried to find any evidence whatsoever this segment was in fact played, but they had no reference to it at all.

I've actually held a grudge against Geraldo about this. lol

I'm not alone in having heard this, obviously. Many others online said they heard it, as well, but it was surprising to learn people questioned that it had been played on Geraldo's show and whether the "voices" were on the tape at all. The latter was even more surprising as Thomas wrote about it and neither Smit nor anyone who had access to the files early on ever denied it. No problem for Team Ramsey, though, who claimed otherwise.

So what happened to Geraldo's "scoop"? Another long term member of us usual suspects on the forums said she'd heard the tape played as well and was set up to record when the "rerun" was cycled again early in the morning, for later reference ON the forums. She was disappointed when the show rerun came on with the disclaimer I mentioned above.

This was no conspiracy among forum nutjobs: none of us knew each other personally or privately. The woman who saw the disclaimer is someone I don't know, never heard of before I came online, and have never been in contact with about this or any other issues. Many people said on the forums they had heard this "enhanced tape" as it also ran on a half-hour gossip mag show during that time period, a program which aired on a different channel and was owned by the same media company, obviously. One of those tabloid shows like Diane Diamond was on, etc.

So take it or leave it as you wish. I'm sure LE heard a better copy, as back in those days the "generation" was important, so I'll defer to their transcription because they all seem to have heard the same thing independently of each other, according to many sources, including Kolar now.

All I heard was a deep voice speaking harshly to the child-like, pleading voice. But I was listening to a TV transmission through TV speakers--not so good back in those days, either, compared to today.

So I bring all this up to point out that even though it may be somewhat agreed upon by LE as to what these speakers on the 911 tape were saying that night, I don't think it's 100% certain what was being said. Otherwise, why would they go to so much trouble to "independently" listen and write down what they had heard before being influenced by the interpretation of others? There could be something else there, something which could change the meaning altogether.

JMO

Interesting. I've never heard the enhanced tape, only seen transcriptions.

FairM said:

no, of course it can be the RN...Patsy was hysterical you can hear her hyperventilating on that tape...he wouldnt know that her referring to a note was what was found or what it meant.

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Years ago we discussed Patsy and her hyperventilating. It was a great thread. Patsy was a gifted drama student. Hyperventilating is a technique often used for dramatic effect. In reality, most honest 911 callers try to be clear and to the point. They are very cooperative and don't try to control the situation and they don't hyperventilate. In my opinion, Patsy sounded scripted. The hyperventilating sounded phony to my ear.

I could be wrong but I don't think so.

Koldkase....I find it MASSIVELY hard to believe that there isn't a copy of that show out there somewhere. After all, there are websites I visit that are dedicated to locating missing/wiped episodes of tv shows, like the british serier Dr Who for example.

Perhaps it is worth going to one of these sites, identifying the date of the program and putting a request out there for someone to find a copy.

I'll find some links and post them to you.

wonderllama said:

Koldkase....I find it MASSIVELY hard to believe that there isn't a copy of that show out there somewhere. After all, there are websites I visit that are dedicated to locating missing/wiped episodes of tv shows, like the british serier Dr Who for example.

Perhaps it is worth going to one of these sites, identifying the date of the program and putting a request out there for someone to find a copy.

I'll find some links and post them to you.

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I know what Koldkase is saying is truth. I have studied this case since the beginning and not joining Websleuths until just recently. I do recall the 911 enhanced tape, know that it did exist and also know that you can not find a copy of it anywhere today; well unless your privy to the case info like Kolar. And I agree as well with Koldkase in the description of the recording. It was hard to make out but what she states is true. JR was very stern when speaking to BR (child) if not BR than what child?

Also since Kolar has come forward it is now a known fact that BR was questioned by BPD @ the White's house prior to his parent's arrival there. He stated he knew what happened to JB. That somebody carried her down to the basement and either stabbed her or hit her on the head. SS overhead BR and DS discussing this one day. SS was quite upset according to Kolar by the lack of remorse of either boy. She stated it sounded like they were speaking about a tv program.

So it's no longer a question about whether BR was awake or not, because he knew what happened; although he remained upstairs until his father and FW took him to FW house and soon after spoke with the BPD about what actually happened.

Also this has nothing really to do with the above but it was DS that reported that BR owned a pair of Hi-tech shoes, and it is also my understnading that DS possibly stayed the night w/BR on the 26th. I know I keep repeating myself but ..... hummmm?

wonderllama said:

Koldkase....I find it MASSIVELY hard to believe that there isn't a copy of that show out there somewhere. After all, there are websites I visit that are dedicated to locating missing/wiped episodes of tv shows, like the british serier Dr Who for example.

Perhaps it is worth going to one of these sites, identifying the date of the program and putting a request out there for someone to find a copy.

I'll find some links and post them to you.

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It's not that hard to believe. We actually don't have the vast majority of all TV programs made about this case, especially from the '90's. I'm not saying there's anything sinister behind it (except for the Geraldo 911 episode) but that's what happens when a case occurs pre-YouTube and in the early Internet age.

I think that if someone decided to record that episode of Geraldo, it had to be a serious follower of the case, and you would think we would've heard from him or her.

Don't you (America) have a population of 270 Million?
Surely someone was taping it.....I know my mother has stuff on video from the early 1980s

I still think it's worth checking this out in the online haunts of video tapers.
After all, they're still digging up missing episodes of shows from the 1950s!

I've searched for the enhanced 911 tape and couldn't find it. Before it was easily available. I'm sure team R had it banned.

wonderllama said:

Don't you (America) have a population of 270 Million?
Surely someone was taping it.....I know my mother has stuff on video from the early 1980s

I still think it's worth checking this out in the online haunts of video tapers.
After all, they're still digging up missing episodes of shows from the 1950s!

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Wonder,

About three years ago when I was just starting to seriously research this case, I accidentally came across a clip of this show and heard the enhanced 911 call. Being that it was Geraldo, I blew it off and didnt save it. I could really kick my own butt for that, as now I cant find it.

I can tell you this Marcia Clark was the guest host and if I remember it right the year on the clip was 1998. Hold on let me search something....

This is all I can find... Geraldo Program Listing. Internet poster BluesStrat found a Geraldo Live program listing as follows: "August 21, 1998 Military strikes against facilities of Osama bin Laden; President Clinton's speech to the nation in which he admitted to a relationship with Monica Lewinsky; Enhanced 911 tape revealing Burke Ramsey speaking in the background, when his parents said he was upstairs sleeping (emphasis added}." BluesStrat notes that "transcripts of "Rivera Live" cost $8.00 per program, videotapes cost $27.95 plus $5.00 shipping and handling. Please note that videotapes are available for one year after air date." http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682511/The 911 Call