Weekend Discussion thread 04/21-24/2012

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Thinkzerz said:
I hate to say it but i find it had to believe that MR did this kidnapping for sex. His profile shows he does everything he does for drugs and money. JMO
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Which profile shows this????
 
Alethea Dice said:
Something else that always struck me odd is how fast the actual kidnapping happened. For a random, unplanned kidnapping of a child unknown to the kidnapper, everything happened very quickly. At 3:25 the school bell rang, and by 3:33 Tori was in the car and being driven away. All it took was 8 minutes. 8 minutes to find a child that was all alone, talk to her about dogs, convince the child to go with her, take the 3 minute walk down the street, get in the car and leave. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like everything ran very smoothly for a spur of the moment, stranger abduction.
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Exactly not to mention that usually the first thing you learn in "Stranger Danger" is don't go to anyone who wants you to help look for their dog etc. It usually is a lesson about someone and dog talk. JMO
 
Alethea Dice said:
According to that map, it was a 3 minute walk to the nursing home. Since the videos show that they were already walking up the street when MR drove past, it would be pointless to pull into the school. He pulled into the first parking lot after passing them on the street. At 3:32, TLM was caught on video walking down Fife with Tori. At 3:33, they were leaving the retirement home.
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My point is, MR dropped off TLM before school was out, he alone in his car was then spotted at 3:20 ish on video meaning he likely was dropping TLM off in the area before school was out, so why not simply drive into the school parking lot to drop her off and wait for TS rather than have TLM meet up with TS on the street, too many people would have noticed them if they were in the lot at the school.

The video footage of TLM and TS is shot at angle where they would have already past the main parking lot of the nursing home, he was parked in a secluded smaller parking lot to the north of the building. He dropped TLM off, got out of the area and came back trying to keep his vehicle out of sight and avoid being noticed. Look at a satellite photo of the tennis courts at cass, the camera was on the building by the courts which is further up the road than the first lot at Crescent Care.
 
SFB73 said:
My point is, MR dropped off TLM before school was out, he alone in his car was then spotted at 3:20 ish on video meaning he likely was dropping TLM off in the area before school was out, so why not simply drive into the school parking lot to drop her off and wait for TS rather than have TLM meet up with TS on the street, too many people would have noticed them if they were in the lot at the school.

The video footage of TLM and TS is shot at angle where they would have already past the main parking lot of the nursing home, he was parked in a secluded smaller parking lot to the north of the building. He dropped TLM off, got out of the area and came back trying to keep his vehicle out of sight and avoid being noticed. Look at a satellite photo of the tennis courts at cass, the camera was on the building by the courts which is further up the road than the first lot at Crescent Care.
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So this is not the direction to VS home. Therefore I believe that one or both TLM or MR knew VS as no child "Who's mother says she wouldn't go with a stranger" is going to walk that far in direction away from home or with someone she didn't know JMO
 
robynhood said:
...IMO...it was stated that Rafferty bought a WHOLE PLASTIC bag of pills while Tori was in the car with TLM ...this leads me to believe that he was PROBABLY was selling those pills ????.....IMO that would be the only reason he would take an 8 year girl ....TORI with him to pick up those pills ....hmmm what do other peopple think???...My LOGIC says it MUST HAVE BEEN very URGent to go there with an 8 year old...Tori that you have just KIDNAPPED...this Puzzles me GREATLy ...IMO he did not seems rushed either to be in that house for 10mins ...just chit chatting while leaving TLM and tori waiting????.....I am VERY INTERESTED too ....HOW TLM kept Tori QUIET for so long ????....Imo as others have posted I DO NOT think Tori was a "PASSIVE"" child who would sit QUIETLY ...IMO ...Poor Tori left with Rafferty alone too while TLM went into home Depot too....IMO maybe they drugged her ...? ...IMO Poor Tori was in that darn car for what looks like 2 HOURS TILL SHE met her Horrible fate....Please others can you help me here ...??? I do respect many posters OPINIONS....this whole story TROUBLES me greatly ....thanks Robynhood....it is comforting to see others as troubled as I am about this horrendous case >>>>and I feel obessed about this case ...JUST SO DEEPLY UPSETTING ...thanks again robynhood...I do hope to hear some replies from others ...PLEASE??????
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in the video of TLM with Det Smythe he asked TLM if Tori had tape over her mouth. I think the answer was no.

in other cases it has been pretty common to use tape to put over mouth or hands of the victim; so that would not suprise me. neither would it surprise me to find out if she had been drugged. JMO Allowing the perpetrator to be free to zip around without a fuss. JMO Unfortunately with the condition of her body those things could not be prooved or disprooved so it can only be a guess for anybody; but statistically I think that is usually what happens. JMO

Nearly half of the victims (the vast majority) are immediately controlled by “Direct Physical Assault.” One-quarter of the victims are found bound. Whether it’s to control an uncooperative, hysterical child or to “fulfill [the killer’s] sexual fantasies.”
http://thealphabetkiller.com/portrait-of-a-child-abduction-murder/

This does NOT mean this is what happened; just what statistics say is usually the case in child abduction murders in general. JMO

Nobody knows exactly what happened that day Robynhood; but that now TS is at peace. She is not suffering now. JMO
 
Ardy said:
According to the undercover cops, MR said he had an oxycontin habit of 5 pills of 80mg each.

He would be paying 200 a day just for oxycontin plus the cost of percs.

If true, he was spending $7000 a month on drugs............

He doesn't strike me as a guy who has $7000 a month in extra cash.

Either he was dealing to pay for his habit, he found an unethical doctor who prescribed oxycontin to addicts, or he was exaggerating his drug use.

At that level of drug use...........he would barely be able to function.

JMO..........
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It was an either/or habit for him. The percs were way cheaper so that was probably his usual fix. But I'm sure he'd pick up the Oxy whenever he had the chance. And we know he talked at least one physician into prescribing them for him for his "bad back". Who knows how many other prescriptions he actually had filled under his own name.

If BA was correct that the "baggie" he bought was $300, and he was buying from her about 3 times a month, then that was about a $900 a month perc habit. Add in whatever Oxy's he could get his hands on and we might be looking at around $1200 a month.

MOO
 
flipflop said:
I understand what you are saying. Sex also seems to be a bit part of his life. I believe he hooked up with TLM for a very sick reason. JMO
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There are a few things that have crossed my mind. With MR saying "she isn't young enough" and TLM past history of man sexually assaulting her.

Was MR selling VS and she was to old?
Was TLM trying find out if MR was like most men she knew?
Did TLM find out MR had many girlfriends (frame MR)?

Or is TLM story the whole truth and there is no other reason other than another Karla and Paul Bernardo?

Still makes no sense on why these two would drive around with VS to Guelph. Unless one didn't know she was kidnapped???
 
Thinkzerz said:
She would not have crossed the street without an adult or because she didn't live on the street where MR was parked?
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If she were going home from the school, she would not have had to cross Fyfe (but as we know, she had never walked home to her new house before by herself). I guess we haven't heard whether there was a crossing guard helping kids cross the street from the school. It's not a busy street, but when school lets out, there must be lots of bus and pick-up traffic. Makes you wonder whether TLM picked up Tori right in front of the school and took her across the street. Tori would have had no reason to cross the street herself.
 
Thinkzerz said:
There are a few things that have crossed my mind. With MR saying "she isn't young enough" and TLM past history of man sexually assaulting her.

Was MR selling VS and she was to old?
Was TLM trying find out if MR was like most men she knew?
Did TLM find out MR had many girlfriends (frame MR)?

Or is TLM story the whole truth and there is no other reason other than another Karla and Paul Bernardo?

Still makes no sense on why these two would drive around with VS to Guelph. Unless one didn't know she was kidnapped???
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It doesn't makes sense for a 28 year old to drive a strange kid around and stop to buy drugs with a kid either then go to a remote place. But I understand what you mean, seems wierd but no matter how you slice it this whole thing is wierd but if you look at the main characters I just think, criminals, low lifes and this is your brain on drugs. JMO We may never know the entire story; the only thing we can ask ourselves is did the coming together of these two characters result in the savage death of this child. IMO Neither one was a poster child for the 4-H club IMO, getting drugs with a kid in the car...and the child ends up dead. They had "care" of this child and I use that term loosely as it appears it was kidnapping...either way..no care was shown by either of them and this child died a horrible death. JMO Who is MORE guilty; I dunno flip a coin I guess. JMO
 
Thinkzerz said:
So this is not the direction to VS home. Therefore I believe that one or both TLM or MR knew VS as no child "Who's mother says she wouldn't go with a stranger" is going to walk that far in direction away from home or with someone she didn't know JMO
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No no, you can get to her house the way she was walking, I was simply saying that there were a couple of ways to her house from the school If that was the first day walking to her house, she probably took the most direct route without having to cut through the high school grounds, as I said, when i was a kid there wasn't a fence around the track at cass so cutting over to east park drive would be possible... Today, I think the track is fenced in and that may not allow kids from Oliver Stephens to cut through or perhaps that was the route she was told to take.

Yes, upon closer look at the satellite image there is now a fence around the track at CASS so shenwiuldnhave had to walk up Fyfe to either college ave or Francis st
 
JayFriend said:
If she were going home from the school, she would not have had to cross Fyfe (but as we know, she had never walked home to her new house before by herself). I guess we haven't heard whether there was a crossing guard helping kids cross the street from the school. It's not a busy street, but when school lets out, there must be lots of bus and pick-up traffic. Makes you wonder whether TLM picked up Tori right in front of the school and took her across the street. Tori would have had no reason to cross the street herself.
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With the way TLM was walking in front of Tori and the way Tori went so willingly. I truly believe VS knew TLM. I mean think about it wouldn't TLM need to have some kind of way to get VS to follow her that distance without VS getting a gut feeling not to follow her? The way TLM makes it sound she told Tori something about seeing a dog and Tori then just followed her 2-3 blocks . Nope not buying it. JMO
 
Thinkzerz said:
With the way TLM was walking in front of Tori and the way Tori went so willingly. I truly believe VS knew TLM. I mean think about it wouldn't TLM need to have some kind of way to get VS to follow her that distance without VS getting a gut feeling not to follow her? The way TLM makes it sound she told Tori something about seeing a dog and Tori then just followed her 2-3 blocks . Nope not buying it. JMO
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I thought that too, they seemed to be hurrying, I wondered if TS had been told her mother was sick I have to take you to the hospital or something like that. JMO But again, we may never know. JMO
 
...yes I agree IMO this abuction for a " susposively"..... " "spur of the moment "...abuction did happen EXTREMELY QUICK...Imo I am sure it was discussed previously to that horrible day of April 8 2009...Imo... another thought was it was reported that TLM was captured on camara ( maybe) walking her dog on previous days @ Tori's school...PLease correct me but I think she stated that ( for whatever TLM words are worth...???) ...that she walked her dog in front of that school and there were children patting her dog...sorry but those links are long gone now...MAYBE someone else has them ....IMO it is possible that Tori met TLM and knew her and her dog...????...IMO and speclating a possiblity ....?...robynhood ...been reading this forum since 2009 ...anyone else remeber this too or have a link????? ...curious>>>>...robynhood ..justtrying hard to make sense of this as we all are ...? ...IMO " spur of the moment abuction like was stated I think by terri Lynn ..I feel is DOUBTFUL....IMO this act was planned and dicussed....It may have been a dare like well are you doing to do THAT DEED TOAY ...agin specilating...IMO...robynhood
 
SFB73 said:
My point is, MR dropped off TLM before school was out, he alone in his car was then spotted at 3:20 ish on video meaning he likely was dropping TLM off in the area before school was out, so why not simply drive into the school parking lot to drop her off and wait for TS rather than have TLM meet up with TS on the street, too many people would have noticed them if they were in the lot at the school.

The video footage of TLM and TS is shot at angle where they would have already past the main parking lot of the nursing home, he was parked in a secluded smaller parking lot to the north of the building. He dropped TLM off, got out of the area and came back trying to keep his vehicle out of sight and avoid being noticed. Look at a satellite photo of the tennis courts at cass, the camera was on the building by the courts which is further up the road than the first lot at Crescent Care.
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I don't know about Oliver Stephens school, but many schools in Woodstock don't allow pickups in their parking lots. They are reserved for school staff only. Many schools also don't allow parking in front the schools because the school buses pick up kids there.

Perhaps other people park at the Caressant Care parking lot as well.

I have always wondered how brazen TLM was walking away with VS.....if she didn't know who VS parents were. How could she know her mom and dad weren't standing there watching her and wondering what she was doing?

JMO...............
 
ed
Alethea Dice said:
Something else that always struck me odd is how fast the actual kidnapping happened. For a random, unplanned kidnapping of a child unknown to the kidnapper, everything happened very quickly. At 3:25 the school bell rang, and by 3:33 Tori was in the car and being driven away. All it took was 8 minutes. 8 minutes to find a child that was all alone, talk to her about dogs, convince the child to go with her, take the 3 minute walk down the street, get in the car and leave. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like everything ran very smoothly for a spur of the moment, stranger abduction.
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JMO

amazing isn't it...almost would make one believe that TS knew TLM...and all it would take would be a quick Hi to TS from TLM...followed with "your Mom asked me to pick you up and babysit you for awhile as she had to go out".... and the child believed her and followed her to the car... no struggle..no questions...like a lamb to the slaughter....sad...JMO..makes one believe that TLM was holding a grudge of sorts against either TM or JG and had a plan in mind...JMO all in eight short minutes...same thing that may have happened to that little guy in NY..... they think he knew the perp also....JMO most kids that are snatched on the street are done with someone jumping out of an auto and throwing them in...but TS had to walk a few minutes to the waiting car....
 
There was one court hearing when it was reported that MR mouthed the words" Liar" to TLM. Does anyone know what TLM was saying when MR mouthed those words to her?
 
I think kidnapping her was easy even if she was talked to by her mother about stranger danger. TLM was a female for one and a teenager. Kids don't see that as danger jmo
 
Thinkzerz said:
With the way TLM was walking in front of Tori and the way Tori went so willingly. I truly believe VS knew TLM. I mean think about it wouldn't TLM need to have some kind of way to get VS to follow her that distance without VS getting a gut feeling not to follow her? The way TLM makes it sound she told Tori something about seeing a dog and Tori then just followed her 2-3 blocks . Nope not buying it. JMO
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The only person who could tell us what was said is no longer with us...whatever TLM said to VS to convince her to come along...it worked, as we all saw on the video that VS walked willingly with TLM.
 
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