GUILTY GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 26 June 2011 #13

tomkat · May 2, 2012

AgentFrankLundy said:
I haven't heard back from my source on the AJC story , will let you know when I do . I'd be glad to go down to the courthouse, I am as curious as anyone about the million dollar civil suit, but I do not think it is not yet a formal suit for which anything would be recorded or on file at the courthouse. I think all we have at this point is an ambulance chaser trying to shake down the landlord. With the Giddings blessings , apparently . But I can't really say I blame them.
I did go to the courthouse a while back maybe two months ago and ask to see the McDaniel's file. I was surprised at how thin it was. Only about three or four documents, and all had been printed by Macon Telegraph. I am guessing things will be quiet again for a while. A few motions filed here and there.
One thing I got to thinking about over the weekend , after I went to church, is we heard about Lauren attending mass three times a week,and we also heard about Stephen singing in his church choir. But this was when he was a teenager. Is there any evidence he attended church while he was at Mercer or was involved in the Baptist Student Union or anything ? Me thinks he rebelled against Glenda, lost his religious upbringing , among other things. Reminds me of a recent episode of Mad Men, when Sally Draper asks Pauline Francis about Richard Speck, the Chicago mass murderer of nursing students - "Why would he do that? " to which she replies "Well, he probably hated his mother"

Or he had always just placated her, done what was expected but was always of another mindset so when he got out from under her thumb, he just had no accountability and did whatever, without much thought ............and now, the real SM is born........Accountable NOW though!

Backwoods · May 2, 2012

bessie said:
Only the downstairs refrigerator was removed. Here is a photo of LG's kitchen taken on 07/29/2012. The refrigerator is there.

More images from inside her apartment can be found at this link.

http://www.macon.com/2011/07/31/1649731/giddings-case-apartments-gradually.html

I believe LE discovered the blood in the downstairs refrigerator within a day or two of LG's body being discovered. Looking back over the first thread, I was reminded of the early rumors about the refrigerator and the "frozen body parts" found in neighbors' trash. That has never been reported officially, so it might not be true. Since rumors usually are based at least partially on fact, however, I have a hunch the rumors were borne from talk about the refrigerator reported by people near the scene those first couple of days.

Why search the refrigerator? A few possible reasons come to mind. 1. There were obvious signs the torso had been refrigerated; 2. a lingering odor inside the downstairs apartment; 3. and/or the dogs hit on it. Any one or all three could be true.

So here's my theory:
Luminol would've revealed any traces of blood invisible to the naked eye. Once blood showed up inside the fridge, tests performed right at the scene would have shown it to be human. Here is one product used by LE for this purpose.
http://www.abacusdiagnostics.com/hematrace.htm

Once the blood was determined to be human, they would have secured samples for more testing. Over the following 7-10 days, the blood was tested and compared to a DNA profile of LG's remains, showing it was Lauren's blood. After confirming a match, the refrigerator was removed as evidence.

bbm#1: I think the coroner did, very early on, say something to the effect that the torso might have been refrigerated -- I'll see if I can find that quote.

bbm#2: Interesting and plausible. I wasn't specifically aware about the on-site capability to determine human blood (not surprised, though, in this day and age). I do wonder, if someone stored remains in that fridge and then cleaned it, if they would use bleach or some other agent that could deteriorate DNA (or would they just have been banking on, especially in a hurry, that if the refrigerator was "clean" to view that it would not come under scrutiny or undergo testing). If an agent such as bleach was used, it could still be that the blood might not be able to be matched with Lauren, or even, possibly, determined positively to be human.

Sonya610 · May 2, 2012

bessie said:
Looking back over the first thread, I was reminded of the early rumors about the refrigerator and the "frozen body parts" found in neighbors' trash. That has never been reported officially, so it might not be true.

Luminol would've revealed any traces of blood invisible to the naked eye. Once blood showed up inside the fridge, tests performed right at the scene would have shown it to be human. Here is one product used by LE for this purpose.

This is Macon, if frozen body parts were found it would be big big rumor (and yes if body parts have been frozen it causes tissue damage that is obvious)

As far as luminol....yes any supposed blood in the refrigerator would glow.

What is not quite so simple is erasing every bit of killer DNA from the torso. From what I have read a 10% bleach solution is used in DNA labs to prevent cross contamination. That means....either there was hanky panky going on and bleach was used....or there was no hanky panky (not very likely...show real motive if no other reason money/blackmail/criminal activity).

Without DNA evidence linking killer to corpse....show me the bleach...the squirt bottles that held the bleach...the empty bleach bottles....etc....

I am guessing the body was doused in bleach while whole and in the tub. If the torso was in fact cut in half around the abdomen....it could be because one couldn't be sure the DNA would be erased in orifices (or that could be rumor). I tend to think the torso missing beneath the abdomen is true as it is just to strange not to be true. That raises the question of why?

audie · May 2, 2012

bessie said:
Only the downstairs refrigerator was removed. Here is a photo of LG's kitchen taken on 07/29/2011. The refrigerator is there.

snip

back to the future

Sonya610 · May 3, 2012

Backwoods said:
If an agent such as bleach was used, it could still be that the blood might not be able to be matched with Lauren, or even, possibly, determined positively to be human.

Just read something interesting. Regular chlorine bleach (i.e. Clorox) will destroy the dna but the haemoglobin will still be detected with luminol.

Oxygen Bleach (i.e. Oxiclean or Vanish) actually destroys not only the dna but ALSO the haemoglobin. Even if the stain is still visible to the naked eye it won't react with Luminol. Guess now we know if you have to clean up a big mess and you don't want your walls/floor to glow like a Rave party grab a spray bottle of Oxiclean! Could be a great new advertising gimick.

Researchers at the University of Valencia tested oxygen bleach on blood-stained clothing for two hours and found that it destroys all DNA evidence. Forensic tests such as luminal tests rely on the ability of blood to uptake oxygen: A protein in the blood called hemoglobin (responsible for transporting oxygen throughout the body) reacts with hydrogen peroxide and gives a positive test result.

Chlorine-based detergents contaminate blood, but leave behind intact hemoglobin. However, detergents such as Reckitt Benckiser’s Vanish produce oxygen bubbles, which cause the blood to degrade and no longer uptake oxygen.

http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/detecting-evidence-after-bleaching.html

Diddy98 · May 3, 2012

Sonya610 said:
Just read something interesting. Regular chlorine bleach (i.e. Clorox) will destroy the dna but the haemoglobin will still be detected with luminol.

Oxygen Bleach (i.e. Oxiclean or Vanish) actually destroys not only the dna but ALSO the haemoglobin. Even if the stain is still visible to the naked eye it won't react with Luminol. Guess now we know if you have to clean up a big mess and you don't want your walls/floor to glow like a Rave party grab a spray bottle of Oxiclean! Could be a great new advertising gimick.

http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/detecting-evidence-after-bleaching.html

Cleaning and OSHA personnel have know this for years.

AgentFrankLundy · May 3, 2012

Greetings Sleuthers . Returned from Bibb County Probate Court Office , there is nothing on file for Lauren Giddings. The lady was as helpful as she could be with my questions about whether they would get anything related to Lauren , but said I really needed to consult an attorney for answers.
Since Lauren was a student, she was unsure if she would have established residence in Bibb County or just kept it in Maryland. And then I think only if she had a will would there be any filing there , and even then only if there was a decent sized estate , I believe she said, or something like that .
My source tells me the AJC article update on the case is still coming , he just doesn't know when

Backwoods · May 3, 2012

AgentFrankLundy said:
Greetings Sleuthers . Returned from Bibb County Probate Court Office , there is nothing on file for Lauren Giddings. The lady was as helpful as she could be with my questions about whether they would get anything related to Lauren , but said I really needed to consult an attorney for answers.
Since Lauren was a student, she was unsure if she would have established residence in Bibb County or just kept it in Maryland. And then I think only if she had a will would there be any filing there , and even then only if there was a decent sized estate , I believe she said, or something like that .
My source tells me the AJC article update on the case is still coming , he just doesn't know when

Sounds like you made a fine effort -- thanks, AgentFrank.

Yeah, I had wondered if Maryland might still be her legal residence. I guess also possibly Atlanta, since she attended undergraduate years and worked there, and it seems she planned to return there.

I think if any will has been probated, there would be a record of it somewhere, no matter the size of the estate -- know things vary some from state to state, but I think at least that would be true. I am not sure of the workings in the case that she had no will, but I would think if there is an "estate" to bring a civil suit, it had to be created somehow, somewhere.

I keep checking the AJC myself, and I feel pretty sure I'm not the only one. (Hey, you don't reckon this is a marketing ploy, do you?)

Thanks again!

ETA: At these links is some information about wills and estates in Lauren's Maryland home county, if anyone is interested in taking a look:

http://www.princegeorgescountymd.gov/Government/JudicialBranch/Wills/faqs.asp

http://www.princegeorgescountymd.gov/Government/JudicialBranch/wills.asp?nivel=foldmenu(5)

southern_comfort · May 3, 2012

Backwoods said:
Sounds like you made a fine effort -- thanks, AgentFrank.

Yeah, I had wondered if Maryland might still be her legal residence. I guess also possibly Atlanta, since she attended undergraduate years and worked there, and it seems she planned to return there.

I think if any will has been probated, there would be a record of it somewhere, no matter the size of the estate -- know things vary some from state to state, but I think at least that would be true. I am not sure of the workings in the case that she had no will, but I would think if there is an "estate" to bring a civil suit, it had to be created somehow, somewhere.

I keep checking the AJC myself, and I feel pretty sure I'm not the only one. (Hey, you don't reckon this is a marketing ploy, do you?)

Thanks again!

ETA: At these links is some information about wills and estates in Lauren's Maryland home county, if anyone is interested in taking a look:

http://www.princegeorgescountymd.gov/Government/JudicialBranch/Wills/faqs.asp

http://www.princegeorgescountymd.gov/Government/JudicialBranch/wills.asp?nivel=foldmenu(5)

This isn't scientific by any means, but I just did a whitepages.com search (not sure why I didn't look there before) and they show her address in MD... so, I guess she never changed it.

I don't see anything in GA at all under her name.

Thanks for checking, AgentFrank!

tomkat · May 3, 2012

Backwoods said:
Sounds like you made a fine effort -- thanks, AgentFrank.

Yeah, I had wondered if Maryland might still be her legal residence. I guess also possibly Atlanta, since she attended undergraduate years and worked there, and it seems she planned to return there.

I think if any will has been probated, there would be a record of it somewhere, no matter the size of the estate -- know things vary some from state to state, but I think at least that would be true. I am not sure of the workings in the case that she had no will, but I would think if there is an "estate" to bring a civil suit, it had to be created somehow, somewhere.

I keep checking the AJC myself, and I feel pretty sure I'm not the only one. (Hey, you don't reckon this is a marketing ploy, do you?)

Thanks again!

ETA: At these links is some information about wills and estates in Lauren's Maryland home county, if anyone is interested in taking a look:

http://www.princegeorgescountymd.gov/Government/JudicialBranch/Wills/faqs.asp

http://www.princegeorgescountymd.gov/Government/JudicialBranch/wills.asp?nivel=foldmenu(5)

DId you just say "reckon"?! LOL, LOVE IT !

Backwoods · May 3, 2012

tomkat said:
DId you just say "reckon"?! LOL, LOVE IT !

Yeah, I did say (well, type) it. And I come by it honestly, tomkat.

OT: When I went off to a college in Atlanta years ago and found myself surrounded by lots of folks who either weren't from Georgia/the South at all or spoke "Atlantan", it was my first real experience at feeling a little self-conscious about "reckon" and "yonder" and "y'all" and such, and for a while, I think I tried to curtail those somewhat! Then I took this wonderful course about the English language and learning about all the richness and diversity and roots of the dialects we have in the U.S. was fascinating to me. I decided then and there I wouldn't squelch my linguistic heritage out of existence -- even to letting it slip on out there in writing, sometimes.

I think "reckon" is a wonderful word, don't you? :seeya:

Backwoods · May 3, 2012

southern_comfort said:
This isn't scientific by any means, but I just did a whitepages.com search (not sure why I didn't look there before) and they show her address in MD... so, I guess she never changed it.

I don't see anything in GA at all under her name.

Thanks for checking, AgentFrank!

And I did one of those "public record" searches and turned up one in Maryland and SIX in Georgia (all Macon), none in Atlanta -- so, go figure! (It was one of those pay-to-view things, didn't take it that far, so I don't know what all they were.)

Also, for Maryland, the state Registry of Wills has a searchable database -- I tried there and nothing came up. It does have a long disclaimer, though, involving possible incompleteness of the records, etc., so I wouldn't rule Maryland out.

bessie · May 4, 2012

Sonya610 said:
Just read something interesting. Regular chlorine bleach (i.e. Clorox) will destroy the dna but the haemoglobin will still be detected with luminol.

Oxygen Bleach (i.e. Oxiclean or Vanish) actually destroys not only the dna but ALSO the haemoglobin. Even if the stain is still visible to the naked eye it won't react with Luminol. Guess now we know if you have to clean up a big mess and you don't want your walls/floor to glow like a Rave party grab a spray bottle of Oxiclean! Could be a great new advertising gimick.

http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/detecting-evidence-after-bleaching.html

Yes, that is a problem with luminol. Fortunately, luminol is not the only regent available to LE.

http://www.bluestar-forensic.com/gb/bluestar-bleach.php

And while bleach can cause DNA degradation, PCR amplification often can produce a DNA profile from a degraded sample.

http://marketing.appliedbiosystems.com/images/Product_Microsites/NGM/downloads/NextGen_SS_v2.pdf

On the other hand, the best (purest) blood sample would likely come from tiny cracks and seams inside the refrigerator where liquids seep.

bessie · May 4, 2012

Sonya610 said:
This is Macon, if frozen body parts were found it would be big big rumor (and yes if body parts have been frozen it causes tissue damage that is obvious)

As far as luminol....yes any supposed blood in the refrigerator would glow.

What is not quite so simple is erasing every bit of killer DNA from the torso. From what I have read a 10% bleach solution is used in DNA labs to prevent cross contamination. That means....either there was hanky panky going on and bleach was used....or there was no hanky panky (not very likely...show real motive if no other reason money/blackmail/criminal activity).

Without DNA evidence linking killer to corpse....show me the bleach...the squirt bottles that held the bleach...the empty bleach bottles....etc....

I am guessing the body was doused in bleach while whole and in the tub. If the torso was in fact cut in half around the abdomen....it could be because one couldn't be sure the DNA would be erased in orifices (or that could be rumor). I tend to think the torso missing beneath the abdomen is true as it is just to strange not to be true. That raises the question of why?

Regarding the bolded statement, naturally tissue damage would be evident at autopsy. I meant at the crime scene. Moisture on the outside of the plastic could give an indication of how long the remains had been outdoors.

tomkat · May 4, 2012

Backwoods said:
Yeah, I did say (well, type) it. And I come by it honestly, tomkat.

OT: When I went off to a college in Atlanta years ago and found myself surrounded by lots of folks who either weren't from Georgia/the South at all or spoke "Atlantan", it was my first real experience at feeling a little self-conscious about "reckon" and "yonder" and "y'all" and such, and for a while, I think I tried to curtail those somewhat! Then I took this wonderful course about the English language and learning about all the richness and diversity and roots of the dialects we have in the U.S. was fascinating to me. I decided then and there I wouldn't squelch my linguistic heritage out of existence -- even to letting it slip on out there in writing, sometimes.

I think "reckon" is a wonderful word, don't you? :seeya:

Been in Georgia most of my life, grew up here and heard it alot in my younger days. Now mostly in the smaller towns, I think I still use it, can't recollect. But to hear it (see it) here, it made me miss my childhood and my country grandfolks and aunts and uncles who no longer are with us!

I love the word "reckon", ya'll, yonder and more, never squelch your heritage. Besides, the southerners have moved north and west and thanks to the internet as well, we have taken our own dialects to those areas as well, so we are spreading our linguistic heritage. Be Proud!

Sorry, we need a forum for southern slangs! LOL.

Wondergirl · May 4, 2012

I stopped by Lauren's thread tonight as I haven't been on for a long time.

Turns out, I just don't have the heart to go back over her "case" right now.

I feel very badly for her loved ones, and her many friends.

She continues to be a bright star, even in death, and I hope that she continues to guide from above, as she guided on earth.

Backwoods · May 8, 2012

Lauren's thread is at the bottom of the index page, so to bump it back up just thought I would note that this month will mark a year since she graduated from law school. For some reason, I am thinking the date may be the 12th but don't know where that thought is coming from ... does anyone know for sure? There will be many painful anniversary dates coming up soon for her family and others affected by this murder.

ETA: Have we ever had this gallery of photos from the 2011 law school commencement posted before:

http://gallery.mercer.edu/CommencementEvents/Commencement-Events-2011/Law-School-Commencement-May/17096704_F735j2#!i=1295408470&k=LP9BS92

ETA again: I think I was wrong on the date -- believe it was actually May 14, according to this document:

http://www.mercer.edu/oie/PresidentReport/PresReport-November2011.pdf

tomkat · May 8, 2012

Backwoods said:
Lauren's thread is at the bottom of the index page, so to bump it back up just thought I would note that this month will mark a year since she graduated from law school. For some reason, I am thinking the date may be the 12th but don't know where that thought is coming from ... does anyone know for sure? There will be many painful anniversary dates coming up soon for her family and others affected by this murder.

ETA: Have we ever had this gallery of photos from the 2011 law school commencement posted before:

http://gallery.mercer.edu/CommencementEvents/Commencement-Events-2011/Law-School-Commencement-May/17096704_F735j2#!i=1295408470&k=LP9BS92

ETA again: I think I was wrong on the date -- believe it was actually May 14, according to this document:

http://www.mercer.edu/oie/PresidentReport/PresReport-November2011.pdf

It's close anyway, they are taking exams at Mercer Law now

southern_comfort · May 8, 2012

Backwoods said:
Lauren's thread is at the bottom of the index page, so to bump it back up just thought I would note that this month will mark a year since she graduated from law school. For some reason, I am thinking the date may be the 12th but don't know where that thought is coming from ... does anyone know for sure? There will be many painful anniversary dates coming up soon for her family and others affected by this murder.

ETA: Have we ever had this gallery of photos from the 2011 law school commencement posted before:

http://gallery.mercer.edu/CommencementEvents/Commencement-Events-2011/Law-School-Commencement-May/17096704_F735j2#!i=1295408470&k=LP9BS92

ETA again: I think I was wrong on the date -- believe it was actually May 14, according to this document:

http://www.mercer.edu/oie/PresidentReport/PresReport-November2011.pdf

I remember looking at those graduation photos. It's incredible that people's lives moved from such a joyful and momentous occasion to devastation in the blink of an eye.

(In the interest of possibly saving some time for somebody else, I'll mention that I see Lauren in photos 195, 306 and 330. McD is in 303. I went quickly so that may not be all).

McMunn · May 8, 2012

southern_comfort said:
I remember looking at those graduation photos. It's incredible that people's lives moved from such a joyful and momentous occasion to devastation in the blink of an eye.

(In the interest of possibly saving some time for somebody else, I'll mention that I see Lauren in photos 195, 306 and 330. McD is in 303. I went quickly so that may not be all).

Good eye, SC! I didn't catch the pic of McD. I see that Lauren is also in pic 161.

GUILTY GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 26 June 2011 #13

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