CA - Two Fullerton PD officers accused of beating Kelly Thomas to death

Actually, I think you're right. I was thinking reasonable force, as opposed to excessive force. That is, that some situations call for the use of tasers, etcetera.

Wholeheartedly agree, shadowraiths. In this case, they actually shouldn't have needed to use any force at all. This man had done nothing wrong. The police thought that he fit the description of a car thief. They could have let him go, but they didn't.

I wonder if they will evaluate how and when to pursue suspects in non-violent crimes. Maybe the same way that they will back off of a suspect when car chases become dangerous.

Am I misunderstanding how this happened? He became afraid when the police thought he was a car thief, and ran, right?
 
I didn't watch the video or listen to the audio. The one hospital picture was enough for me.

In these type of public incidences, I ask myself "What would I have done?" as a spectator. I would want to answer that I would have been so outraged and (brave) that I would have dared a beating myself and confronted the police officers. But I think (honestly) I would have more guts going up to a gang of criminals doing it than LE. I'm pretty sure the RIGHT THING would be to confront anybody doing this, just don't know if I would have.

This case is disgusting, but let's remember this is such a small percentage of LE who are animals like this. Think of the ones who stay up all night looking for little kids who are missing, who risk their lives for us, and who get paid so little to protect us.

Unfortunately, the percentage of officers who do this type of thing may not be as small as one would think. Blacks, Hispanics and mentally ill people of all ethnic backgrounds can attest to that. There are hundreds of reports of police brutality every year in places like L.A.

It is ridiculously hard to prosecute or even discipline officers when they do something like this and since most of these cases happen with few eyewitnesses around, "unreliable" eyewitnesses and/or no recording of the incident, nothing usually happens to bring justice to the victims.

This kind of things scares the carp out of me. This is stuff that we know happens in Syria, Iran, Egypt. It's not supposed to happen here.

I have had a lot of respect for police officers as an adult, overall. But there is a culture that is well known which protects brutality among the ranks and that has to stop.

These officers are required to deal with touch and go, precarious situations on a daily basis. If they cannot control themselves when faced with an unarmed homeless man, how can we trust that they will truly protect and serve us all?

just[/I]* apply the band-aid (punishing the officers) to the symptom (death of an untreated mentally ill individual). Sadly, there are a number of dynamics that play into these sorts of tragedies. And they involve everything from lack of appropriate training, to job-related stress, to instinctive flight/fight responses in the face of threatening behavior, to a sort of pack-like mentality. These ingredients together make for a volatile, and in this case, deadly situation.

This is not to say these men should not be punished. In fact, afaics, the full force of the law should come into play where they are concerned. But let's go further than punishment. Let's take a look at what we, as a society, can do to prevent these sorts of tragedies.

Respectfully snipped by me for space.

I agree with your post. However, by all accounts, Kelly Thomas posed zero threat to those cops. He was sitting there peacefully and when they approached, he tried to run away. He never resisted from witness accounts, in any way. What they did to this poor man makes no sense at all.

Hundreds protest death of Kelly Thomas
FULLERTON – Hundreds of protesters rallied Saturday outside the Fullerton Police Department, demanding answers and resignations because of the death of a mentally ill man after a violent confrontation with officers.
The protest was peaceful, but it was also loud and angry, with signs denouncing the death of Kelly Thomas as murder and chants calling for justice. Police closed a street next to the police station to make way for the protesters but otherwise stayed away.
http://www.ocregister.com/news/thomas-311097-death-kelly.html

I was there on Saturday at the protest. It was intense. I met Kelly Thomas' dad. I gave him a hug and a kiss. He is an ex-officer himself and has worked tirelessly to investigate what happened to his son and get justice for his brutal murder. As a result, Mr. Thomas has had to listen, over and over again, to his son's final conscious moments, as he cried out for his dad. I cannot imagine.

Witnesses say that after Kelly Thomas was already motionless on the pavement, another cop took out his taser and used the butt end, not to continue to tase Kelly, but to beat his head until the blood spurted out in high arcs. The pool of blood was incredible.

The people who witnesses this could not understand why what was happening, happened. They were shocked and scared to death.

I live in the city next to Fullerton and sometimes go to the train station there to read and watch trains. I graduated from CSUF as well. I've seen Kelly around at the train station. He is known in the town and should have been well known by the cops. He's a harmless guy.

If I had been there, witnessing his murder, I probably would have called 911 (ironically) amidst cries for them to stop. I can't think of anything else to do.

Fullerton PD has had some problems in recent years, including the alleged sexual assault of a woman in 2008. There have been complaints about brutality lately as the cops tried to crack down on drunken idiots causing problems in the downtown area at night (most of whom are from out of town). Nick Adenhart, a player for the Anaheim (yes, Anaheim) Angels was killed by a drunk driver in 2009 due to one of these drunks driving recklessly in the area. But apparently the response from the FPD has not been a good one.

It will be very, very hard for those who murdered Kelly Thomas to be brought to justice due to our laws. Public pressure is essential.

Please protest on-going media reports that refer to the unprovoked attack on Kelly Thomas as a "fight" or "confrontation". It was an attack, an assault on and a murder of an unarmed, scared man.

For any locals who can, please join me at the Saturday protests, which occur each Saturday from 10:00 to 3:00 p.m., in front of the Fullerton Police Department on Commonwealth, about a block west of Harbor Blvd. Mr. Thomas is there every Saturday, fighting for his son and really seems to greatly appreciate the support. There are also city council meetings and vigils at night (the last one was a candlelight vigil on Saturday night).

If we are going to ensure that we don't turn into a police state like the ones I listed at the top of my post, we need to be a voice for people like Kelly Thomas.
 
From the above linked article:
His father, Ron, said the protest shows that people are not backing down in their demand for answers, more than a month after his son's death. He said he wants criminal charges against the officers involved in what he called a hate crime against the mentally ill, to include capital murder.
While my heart goes out to Mr. Thomas, imho, he appears to be engaging in post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning. That is, unless there is proof that LE knew his son was mentally ill and were specifically gunning for him, I do not see how hate crime charges would even be considered. Moreover, if they do charge these guys, I personally think they'll go for something like involuntary manslaughter. But that is just a guess. Obviously. I am not a lawyer.

That said, I am not sure focusing purely upon the man's mental illness is necessarily wise. While his illness arguably explained his behavior, in a 20/20 hindsight sort of way, and while untreated mentally ill street people are most certainly at increased risk of violent encounters (which is an issue that is certainly important to address), the outrage, imho, should be about LE wailing on a guy and repeatedly tasering him. Whether he died or not. Whether he was mentally ill or not. Otherwise put, to my mind, this is not a case of undue excessive force, it is a case of police brutality. Pure and simple. And I really do hope people do not lose sight of this fact.

I believe that certain people are at greater risk for police assaults than others. They would be people society views as "marginal" or lesser than. That includes some ethnic minorities, the homeless and the mentally ill. Subconsciously, they may be viewed by some police as worthless and without loved ones. In this case, that subconscious thought backfired as Mr. Thomas is an ex officer who loves his son dearly and has fought for his son for decades, trying to get him help and off the streets.

Sadly, attacks like this on the homeless mentally ill have been rising steadily since the mentally ill were thrown out in droves beginning in the sixties, from the hospitals that once treated and housed them on the state's dime. Recent, massive cuts by the state and local governments have absolutely gutted services for the mentally ill.

This is a problem that should concern us all. When we think we shouldn't or can't pay for services for the vulnerable, things like this happen. And other things happen as well such as crimes committed by individuals who are not in treatment and cannot control what they do. But that is a different subject.

I wonder if the police chief is trying to stall, hoping the protests die down and everyone forgets about the incident. He was stone-faced at the council meeting and has had nothing to say, and took what seemed like forever to remove these cops from active duty.

I believe these cops should be indicted for manslaughter, at least, but I'm not hopeful that any of them will be held to account in the end.

I have heard that the video they're not releasing is plain as day, and shows them beating the hell out of Thomas after he stopped resisting. That's the gist of what I'm hearing from local radio.

Two city council members have now called for the chief to step down. Three are needed to initiate proceedings against him, however.

I am troubled by the reported close friendship the chief and his wife have with the DA's investigator, and the conflict of interest that arises. I don't know if this investigator is in charge of this case. John and Ken have mentioned this on their show.

Apparently, the video is actually not that clear, mostly obscured by trees. However, there were plenty of horrified witnesses who can attest to what happened that night.

And I think that's exactly what the police chief is trying to do - stall. He has been trying to cover this up for awhile and now is attempting to let things die down so it will just go away. Kelly Thomas' dad was offered 900k to go away. He was told that it wouldn't be more because after all, his son was not a rocket scientist: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/...S-about-his-beating-homeless-man-Kelly-Thomas

Wholeheartedly agree, shadowraiths. In this case, they actually shouldn't have needed to use any force at all. This man had done nothing wrong. The police thought that he fit the description of a car thief. They could have let him go, but they didn't.

I wonder if they will evaluate how and when to pursue suspects in non-violent crimes. Maybe the same way that they will back off of a suspect when car chases become dangerous.

Am I misunderstanding how this happened? He became afraid when the police thought he was a car thief, and ran, right?

Pretty much. According to witnesses, he was just sitting there but as the police surrounded him, he got scared and tried to run away and they just grabbed him and started beating him silly. After all, he did suffer from schizophrenia so I can understand him being afraid.
 
respectfully snipped

Pretty much. According to witnesses, he was just sitting there but as the police surrounded him, he got scared and tried to run away and they just grabbed him and started beating him silly. After all, he did suffer from schizophrenia so I can understand him being afraid.

I definitely understand him being afraid, and trying to get away. From what I understand of schizophrenia, it would be likely that he would be scared. I wish the police would revise their protocols for situations like this, and not pursue someone over something so minor.

It just doesn't make sense to me.

Why haven't the identities of the officers involved been release?
 
From the above linked article:

His father, Ron, said the protest shows that people are not backing down in their demand for answers, more than a month after his son's death. He said he wants criminal charges against the officers involved in what he called a hate crime against the mentally ill, to include capital murder.
While my heart goes out to Mr. Thomas, imho, he appears to be engaging in post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning. That is, unless there is proof that LE knew his son was mentally ill and were specifically gunning for him, I do not see how hate crime charges would even be considered. Moreover, if they do charge these guys, I personally think they'll go for something like involuntary manslaughter. But that is just a guess. Obviously. I am not a lawyer.

That said, I am not sure focusing purely upon the man's mental illness is necessarily wise. While his illness arguably explained his behavior, in a 20/20 hindsight sort of way, and while untreated mentally ill street people are most certainly at increased risk of violent encounters (which is an issue that is certainly important to address), the outrage, imho, should be about LE wailing on a guy and repeatedly tasering him. Whether he died or not. Whether he was mentally ill or not. Otherwise put, to my mind, this is not a case of undue excessive force, it is a case of police brutality. Pure and simple. And I really do hope people do not lose sight of this fact.

My understanding is they knew exactly who he was -
 
I definitely understand him being afraid, and trying to get away. From what I understand of schizophrenia, it would be likely that he would be scared. I wish the police would revise their protocols for situations like this, and not pursue someone over something so minor.

It just doesn't make sense to me.

Why haven't the identities of the officers involved been release?

Wouldn't anyone be scared?

I remember thinking the same thing when Rodney King was beaten by LE. If someone is hurting you, wouldn't it be a NORMAL reaction to get away from the source of the pain??? Why would LE - or anyone for that matter - consider it to be anything other than natural instinct?
 

The DA is personally supervising the investigation. The cops have apparently lawyered up and aren't speaking to anyone. The DA is also not ruling out second-degree murder. First-degree is out of the question, however. You need premeditation and deliberate intent to kill. The way the DA was speaking makes me feel that serious charges are coming at some point. There are a lot of witnesses to interview, and they're still waiting on the autopsy results.
 
D.A. sees no signs of 'intentional killing' by Fullerton police
By Richard Winton and Abby Sewell, Los Angeles Times
August 9, 2011

Prosecutors are still probing whether officers used excessive force against a schizophrenic homeless man. The man's father says he suffered brain injuries from blunt force trauma and lack of oxygen.

Orange County Dist. Atty. Tony Rackauckas on Monday said that he's seen no evidence so far suggesting Fullerton police officers intentionally tried to kill homeless man Kelly Thomas, but that his office is still trying to determine whether the officers used excessive force in his death.

Rackauckas, speaking about it publicly for the first time, said the investigation is in its early stages and his office has yet to get a cause-of-death determination from the Orange County coroner's office.

[...]

Rackauckas said he has made the investigation a priority for his prosecutors and investigators, and is devoting extensive resources to the case. "I am reviewing everything that is being done," he said.

The top prosecutor said he had seen a security video of the incident. Prosecutors and police have refused to make the video public, and Rackauckas said he cannot discuss its content.
Full article: click here
 
'Excessive force' in Fullerton police case could be hard to prove
August 8, 2011 | 8:45 am

As authorities investigate the recent death of a homeless man in Fullerton, experts said simply showing that police used force on him would not be enough to show criminal wrongdoing.

Indeed, they said, criminal investigations involving police use of force are not about whether an officer struck a person, but whether the force was "unreasonable" or "excessive."

"Unreasonable force is any force that is used when unnecessary, and that is quite rare," said retired Los Angeles County Sheriff's Cmdr. Charles "Sid" Heal. "Most of the trouble comes with excessive force, that is, too much force that is applied longer in duration than necessary."

[...]

In 2004, Los Angeles police officers were recorded pummeling a car-theft suspect along Compton Creek. One officer who hit the man with a flashlight was fired -- metal lights were subsequently banned -- but none faced criminal charges. In 2002, two Inglewood police were captured on video punching a developmentally disabled 16-year-old in the face and slamming him onto the hood of a patrol car. After two juries deadlocked in the criminal case, it was dropped. A civil jury later awarded the officers $2.4 million for being unfairly disciplined.

Heal said some departments have very strict use-of-force policies, so that legally justifiable acts can still violate department policy and lead to a firing. "Something can be lawful but awful," he said.
Full article: click here
 
Outside expert may probe Fullerton police
Aug. 8, 2011 Updated: 7:25 p.m.
By LOU PONSI / THE ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER

FULLERTON - The City Manager is asking for an independent consultant to conduct an internal investigation into Kelly Thomas' death.

City Manager Joe Felz said through a statement Monday that he will ask the City Council to approve hiring Michael Gennaco, a specialist in examining law enforcement agencies and chief attorney for the Los Angeles County Office of Independent Review.

The civilian oversight committee was created in 2001 by the Los Angeles County supervisors to monitor the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department.

[...]

"The recommendation to hire Mr. Gennaco is consistent with the city's stated desire from the outset for an independent review and transparency on all matters related to the Kelly Thomas incident," Felz said in the statement. "The death of Mr. Thomas is a tragedy that has deeply affected the entire community.
Full article: click here
 
Anonymous targets Fullerton Police and city government in Kelly Thomas beating.
August 9, 2011 by Hieu Vu in News

The hacking group Anonymous has set its sights on the Kelly Thomas beating.

[...]

This can mean they will post a cyber attack which is basically getting into the system and gaining access to a secured database. This can be done via social engineering whereby they get the passwords via smooth talking or some kind of very technical way which is beyond the scope of my knowledge. They can also use some kind of denial of service attack whereby they send over a huge amount of traffic and crash a website.
Full article: click here

OpFullerton
by Anonymous, Aug 5, 2011
We will begin to treat the web assets of the police, city government, and any other targets we deem in support or a cause of this incident with as much mercy as was shown to Kelly Thomas. He may have been silenced, but his screams will live on forever, and we will join him as Operation Fullerton is launched as a joint operation with the PLF.
Full article: click here
 
I definitely understand him being afraid, and trying to get away. From what I understand of schizophrenia, it would be likely that he would be scared. I wish the police would revise their protocols for situations like this, and not pursue someone over something so minor.

It just doesn't make sense to me.

Why haven't the identities of the officers involved been release?

I don't know, but we know who they are:

Officer Jay Cicinelli
Officer Kenton Hampton
Officer Manny Ramos
Officer Joe Wolfe
Officer James Blatney
http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/2011/who-was-there-the-fpd-six/#comment-37777

Also, here's a video of a witness interview who stated one of the other witnesses who was taping or photographing the beating of Kelly Thomas had her camera phone confiscated and she was taken away, possibly arrested: http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/tag/kelly-thomas-beating/
 
Dang.. I just caught up with this story.. a little late! The John & Ken radio show (KFI 640 in L.A.) is going berserk with the story. So, the police have videos that they're still not releasing? Those 6 cops should be up on murder charges. I can't see any reasonable explanation for what they did to that guy. Rodney King was child's play compared to this.
 
D.A. sees no signs of 'intentional killing' by Fullerton police
By Richard Winton and Abby Sewell, Los Angeles Times
August 9, 2011

respectfully snipped

Huh? Are you kidding me? :waitasec:
 
Huh? Are you kidding me? :waitasec:

Well, to be fully objective, I don't think the police officers actually intended to kill him, but they sure as heck wanted to beat him to a pulp for whatever "cop reasons" they had. To say this was an abuse of force is the understatement of the decade.
 
Interesting rap vid wrt a seattle man who was shot and killed by LE.

[video=youtube;I0ly8LDweTw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0ly8LDweTw[/video]
 
The COP took an unexpected indefinite medical leave today. I wonder if it had anything to do with the demand for his resignation or just a coincidence. Either way, I hope he is ok.
 
ULLERTON – Police Chief Michael Sellers, in the wake of the controversial death of a homeless man confronted by officers, was placed on medical leave on Wednesday.
Capt. Kevin Hamilton, commander of the detective division, has been named acting police chief by City Manager Joe Felz.
http://www.ocregister.com/news/police-311620-sellers-chief.html
 

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