Premeditated Theory

Inthedetails said:

There is nothing I've learned about RH that leads me to believe he is a sociopath. He's selfish, that's for sure. He's immature, irresponsible, impulsive, and thoughtless. But I do not see him as a sociopath at all. He just doesn't have that cold, cunning, sharp, vain, charming personality of a sociopath.

JMO and I reserve the right to change my mind.

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Sociopath - must exhibit more than one or two of these symptoms:

1. The Ability to Manipulate [ability to charm others]
2. Failure of Conformity to Social Norms [tweak and twist the rules of society]
3. Impulsiveness [difficult to resist temptation; do not care about consequences of their actions]
4. Ego-Centric Behavior [completely self-centered]
5. Lack of Emotions [lack emotions of love and attachment]
6. Lack of Responsibility [blame others; do not accept responsibility for their actions]
7. Absence of Personal Goals [tend to live a parasitic life]
8. Pathological Lying [constantly lies to cover up behavior]
9. Infidelity [attempt to maintain several relationships at one time without commitment]

Behavior differences in sociopaths and psychopaths:

* Sociopaths are very disorganized people. Psychopaths are obsessively organized people.

* Sociopaths cannot maintain normal relationships with their family, friends and co-workers. Psychopaths tend to have normal relationships with the people around them and are even able to take care of old parents and get married.

* Sociopaths are not able to maintain a steady employment or house. Psychopaths are very successful career-wise. Their ability to organize makes them very likable and trustworthy among people. Psychopaths tend to understand the emotions of others, but they do not feel any emotions or are basically shallow. Thus, it is very easy for them to manipulate people with emotional games.

* Sociopaths are found living at the periphery of the society. A study carried out with the homeless people of New York as subjects, showed that most of them were sociopaths. Psychopaths are found living in large apartments and houses and cannot be distinguished from normal people.

* Sociopaths are very erratic and unplanned with their acts of extreme violence. Their inability to plan and be organized, makes them leave trails of clues. This makes it very easy to identify and zero-in on them. Psychopaths tend to plan for years before they carry out their act of violence. They plan every single detail of their crime and make sure that they remain undetected. This organized and detailed planning makes it very difficult to catch them.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/sociopath-vs-psychopath.html

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/sociopath-symptoms-of-a-sociopath.html

I don't think he needs to fit into a particular diagnosis in order to have premeditated a murder. A lot of professionals think it's more useful to talk about personality traits than labels anyway. But to paraphrase the prosecutor in the Jeffrey MacDonald case...they don't have to prove that he was the "type of person" to do this...they just have to prove that he did do it.

Then why didn't RH say that to LEO, that so-n-so was suppose to have gotten him? He told LEO that in the 15 seconds he forgot his child.

I can believe that someone might want to kill their child - certainly there seem to be plenty of cases of people doing that (I am looking at you, Casey Anthony, among others). But it is hard for me to believe that someone would plan to do it in such a horrible way. You'd have to be really incredibly evil to not only plan to murder your child but to deliberately cause him such terrible suffering (and to be sexting while it is happening).

You want him to die? Drown him in the bathtub and claim you just left the bathroom for a minute and he must have slipped under the water. Give him an overdose of medication and claim that he must have opened the pill bottle himself and eaten them. Quick and so much less terrible for the child. I just can't get my head around anyone making a careful plan for a child to suffer the way Cooper did.

Tink

Listening to HLN analyze RH's actions on the day Cooper died, they mentioned him going to lunch with his friends and riding with them rather than taking his own car as he KNEW he couldn't drive his own car. Was adament about getting lightbulbs and taking them to the car before going back into work. I never thought about it until today, that too was orchestrated so he would have an excuse to go to the car to check (knowing the baby would be dead by that time). His friends left too soon though and I think that was the point he was supposed to make the discovery. Thus the search on how long it takes for a child to die in a hot car. Could also account why the rest of the day didn't make much sense when he said he would be late to the movies, yet left early. No messages between he and LH. Etc.

Baznme said:

Listening to HLN analyze RH's actions on the day Cooper died, they mentioned him going to lunch with his friends and riding with them rather than taking his own car as he KNEW he couldn't drive his own car. Was adament about getting lightbulbs and taking them to the car before going back into work. I never thought about it until today, that too was orchestrated so he would have an excuse to go to the car to check (knowing the baby would be dead by that time). His friends left too soon though and I think that was the point he was supposed to make the discovery. Thus the search on how long it takes for a child to die in a hot car. Could also account why the rest of the day didn't make much sense when he said he would be late to the movies, yet left early. No messages between he and LH. Etc.

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I think it will be interesting to see what his lunchtime habits usually were. Did he generally leave at lunch? Did he take his car? Did he run errands? Was he in contact with LH all day?

Yes, I totally believe this was premeditated.
Too much points to it being that way.

1) the Internet searches about hot car deaths.
2) the fact that JRH "forgot" Cooper was in the car after he was JUST buckled into his seat after breakfast at CFA. And IIRC, the drive from there to the daycare was under a minute...no way JRH forgot his child in that short of time.
3) JRH watched a video on the effects of being locked in a hot car. Not just once, but TWICE!
4) his discussions on Reddit about wanting to live child free.

Yep. Definitely premeditated!

I have to agree with you on all 4 points, ilovepierre.

I think there was premeditation. Who searches for how long it will take for a child to die in a hot car? That alone rings alarm bells for me. How did he miss the turn off to the daycare after spending "quality time" eating breakfast with his son, then literally a minute later driving past the place he was meant to drop him off? I think he walked away from his child, knowing that when he returned the child would be dead, without him having to strangle/stab/drown him. All he had to do was walk into work. Sickening.

blefuscu said:

I think there was premeditation. Who searches for how long it will take for a child to die in a hot car? That alone rings alarm bells for me. How did he miss the turn off to the daycare after spending "quality time" eating breakfast with his son, then literally a minute later driving past the place he was meant to drop him off? I think he walked away from his child, knowing that when he returned the child would be dead, without him having to strangle/stab/drown him. All he had to do was walk into work. Sickening.

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BBM - It's really that simple. He didn't have to get his hands dirty. In his mind he didn't kill Cooper, it was the car. :moo:

I think it was premeditated, so far. That's subject to change the more I learn, but so far, I just can't see how this was an unfortunate accident.

Driving Cooper to daycare was not a break in routine for him. He did this all the time. Cases like this are usually similar in that the parent never drove the child to daycare but through some unexpected circumstance found them having to that morning. Somewhere along the way they forget and slip back I to their normal routine and continue on to work.

I just cannot rationalize him going to eat with his son, right by the day care, and then forget, in seconds to drop him off. He had just eaten with him! Cooper should be fresh in his mind at that point still. The defense would need to prove that he has some crazy short term memory (interfering with this, of course, was the fact he remembered to buy light bulbs...but forgot his child).

He did not remember him for over seven hours, even when he got back to his car during lunch. Something should have triggered in him. That is also something that happens with the cases of genuine forgetfulness I have seen: there is always a midday epiphany, a rushing back to the car and an immediate call to 911. He just strolled back after work, got in, and drove away, despite the smell that had already set in. The car smelled like decomposition yet he just gets in and drives off?

The searches made on the computer have been thoroughly covered.

I really did give him the benefit of the doubt at first because this stuff happens. But I just can't make sense of these things, though I'll still wait and remain open during the trial.

Death by hot car is a passive way to kill a baby. Sadly it is not a passive way to die. Cooper suffered.

MeeBee said:

I think it was premeditated, so far. That's subject to change the more I learn, but so far, I just can't see how this was an unfortunate accident.

Driving Cooper to daycare was not a break in routine for him. He did this all the time. Cases like this are usually similar in that the parent never drove the child to daycare but through some unexpected circumstance found them having to that morning. Somewhere along the way they forget and slip back I to their normal routine and continue on to work.

I just cannot rationalize him going to eat with his son, right by the day care, and then forget, in seconds to drop him off. He had just eaten with him! Cooper should be fresh in his mind at that point still. The defense would need to prove that he has some crazy short term memory (interfering with this, of course, was the fact he remembered to buy light bulbs...but forgot his child).

He did not remember him for over seven hours, even when he got back to his car during lunch. Something should have triggered in him. That is also something that happens with the cases of genuine forgetfulness I have seen: there is always a midday epiphany, a rushing back to the car and an immediate call to 911. He just strolled back after work, got in, and drove away, despite the smell that had already set in. The car smelled like decomposition yet he just gets in and drives off?

The searches made on the computer have been thoroughly covered.

I really did give him the benefit of the doubt at first because this stuff happens. But I just can't make sense of these things, though I'll still wait and remain open during the trial.

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I really did give him the benefit of the doubt at first because this stuff happens.

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That is exactly what RH was counting on. He expected the general public, his friends, his family, or whomever to extend sympathy "because this stuff happens". Our civilized society is a forgiving society, for the most part. It sickens me to think any one would give him a break or any other parent that claims "genuine forgetfulness".

In fact, being a civilized society, we should establish a "No Tolerance" policy. Parents would think twice about leaving a young defenseless child alone in a hot car to die if they knew they would serve time in jail. Oh, but the parent suffers enough just by knowing what they have done is BS. There needs to be no wiggle room for child care providers, whether that's a parent, a grandparent, or a babysitter if a child is left inside a hot car to die an excruciating death.

Cases like this are usually similar in that the parent never drove the child to daycare but through some unexpected circumstance found them having to that morning. Somewhere along the way they forget and slip back I to their normal routine and continue on to work.

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So, if a parent has a change in their usual routine, we should forgive them of their mistake if their child dies in a hot car? I just yanked out a plug of my hair! It should be considered a crime, no matter what the excuse may be, including short term memory issues, since there is not a valid excuse that exists for any baby or child up to age 5yo to be left to die in such a horrendous, painful manner.

Child hot car deaths have become an epidemic. It must be stopped. No tolerance. Automatic culpable negligence that results in a death from leaving a child in a hot car should be the minimal charge. The investigation that ensues could result in more charges such as premeditated murder.

Hot Car Deaths in the United States 2014 (INTERACTIVE)

http://www.weather.com/news/hot-car-deaths-20140708

Jmo mhoo moo and all that jazz

DeDee said:

That is exactly what RH was counting on. He expected the general public, his friends, his family, or whomever to extend sympathy "because this stuff happens". Our civilized society is a forgiving society, for the most part. It sickens me to think any one would give him a break or any other parent that claims "genuine forgetfulness".

In fact, being a civilized society, we should establish a "No Tolerance" policy. Parents would think twice about leaving a young defenseless child alone in a hot car to die if they knew they would serve time in jail. Oh, but the parent suffers enough just by knowing what they have done is BS. There needs to be no wiggle room for child care providers, whether that's a parent, a grandparent, or a babysitter if a child is left inside a hot car to die an excruciating death.



So, if a parent has a change in their usual routine, we should forgive them of their mistake if their child dies in a hot car? I just yanked out a plug of my hair! It should be considered a crime, no matter what the excuse may be, including short term memory issues, since there is not a valid excuse that exists for any baby or child up to age 5yo to be left to die in such a horrendous, painful manner.

Child hot car deaths have become an epidemic. It must be stopped. No tolerance. Automatic culpable negligence that results in a death from leaving a child in a hot car should be the minimal charge. The investigation that ensues could result in more charges such as premeditated murder.

Hot Car Deaths in the United States 2014 (INTERACTIVE)

http://www.weather.com/news/hot-car-deaths-20140708

Jmo mhoo moo and all that jazz

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???


BBM: I didn't say that.

:waitasec:

Hiya, MeeBee.

You wrote:
"Cases like this are usually similar in that the parent never drove the child to daycare but through some unexpected circumstance found them having to that morning. Somewhere along the way they forget and slip back I to their normal routine and continue on to work."

I posed this question in response to your statements:
"So, if a parent has a change in their usual routine, we should forgive them of their mistake if their child dies in a hot car?"

DeDee said:

Hiya, MeeBee.

You wrote:
"Cases like this are usually similar in that the parent never drove the child to daycare but through some unexpected circumstance found them having to that morning. Somewhere along the way they forget and slip back I to their normal routine and continue on to work."

I posed this question in response to your statements:
"So, if a parent has a change in their usual routine, we should forgive them of their mistake if their child dies in a hot car?"

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Why did you pose this question to me? This thread is about whether or not you feel this was a premeditated act. I answered the questioned by drawing comparisons to cases in which the parent genuinely forgot their child and this one and why it's unlikely that this was a genuine mistake. Your question doesn't have anything really to do with what I said or this thread and I kind of feel like it's accusing of me saying something I never said and having an opinion I never said one way or another I held. I don't know if you want my real opinion or if you're just asking a general question. But it's irrelevant. I'm just confused by your indignantion toward what I wrote and hair pulling frustration toward what I said and what I didn't say.

How did I give the impression, one way or another, how I feel about the matter, simply by bringing up other cases where the mistake was genuine and comparing it to this case, where it does not appear to be genuine?

MeeBee said:

Why did you pose this question to me? This thread is about whether or not you feel this was a premeditated act. I answered the questioned by drawing comparisons to cases in which the parent genuinely forgot their child and this one and why it's unlikely that this was a genuine mistake. Your question doesn't have anything really to do with what I said or this thread and I kind of feel like it's accusing of me saying something I never said and having an opinion I never said one way or another I held. I don't know if you want my real opinion or if you're just asking a general question. But it's irrelevant. I'm just confused by your indignantion toward what I wrote and hair pulling frustration toward what I said and what I didn't say.

How did I give the impression, one way or another, how I feel about the matter, simply by bringing up other cases where the mistake was genuine and comparing it to this case, where it does not appear to be genuine?

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My sincere apologies are extended MeeBee if you are offended for that was certainly not my intent. I simply feel there are no hot car deaths of children where a child care provider "genuinely forgets" a living, breathing human that they are personally responsible for protecting. As I mentioned, this death by hot car syndrome has become an epidemic. Over twenty people have "forgotten" their children, this summer alone, and left them in a hot car to die. No way do I believe that many people "genuinely forget". Each of these acts are committed on purpose and with malicious intent to murder their children with premeditation and aforethought yet attempt to claim it was by accident. This is just my opinion.

mho moo jmho and all that jazz

DeDee said:

My sincere apologies are extended MeeBee if you are offended for that was certainly not my intent. I simply feel there are no hot car deaths of children where a child care provider "genuinely forgets" a living, breathing human that they are personally responsible for protecting. As I mentioned, this death by hot car syndrome has become an epidemic. Over twenty people have "forgotten" their children, this summer alone, and left them in a hot car to die. No way do I believe that many people "genuinely forget". Each of these acts are committed on purpose and with malicious intent to murder their children with premeditation and aforethought yet attempt to claim it was by accident. This is just my opinion.

mho moo jmho and all that jazz

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Ok, I understand it a little better if you feel that way. I can't say I agree that every hot car death is an act of premeditated murder. Maybe some of them are and this one certainly seems to be. I think there have been cases where the absentmindedness was genuine. Most of them seem to be just plain old negligence and stupidity.

Every year we are expected to do our taxes. And if you don't do them IRS comes after you. if you decide to have a child it is your responsibility to make sure of his/her wellbeing. This isn't a case where this child died doing something on his own power (like running in the street and getting hit by a car, or running and falling down a flight a stairs). Cooper had no choice in this matter. He was belted in the car seat and too young to know how to release himself. The person clearly responsible for the death of this child is the one who buckled him in.

Mystymiss said:

Every year we are expected to do our taxes. And if you don't do them IRS comes after you. if you decide to have a child it is your responsibility to make sure of his/her wellbeing. This isn't a case where this child died doing something on his own power (like running in the street and getting hit by a car, or running and falling down a flight a stairs). Cooper had no choice in this matter. He was belted in the car seat and too young to know how to release himself. The person clearly responsible for the death of this child is the one who buckled him in.

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bbm That has bothered me some, that Copper could not open his belt. I have wondered if it was tampered with that he couldn't open it. idk jmo