Weekend Discussion thread 04/21-24/2012

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Jezebel......If I could be so bold as to ask......

Since you were actually there, and all we are reading is tweets etc........did you get the feeling during her testimony.............

Did TLM look at the Crown and defense when they were asking her questions?

I can’t really answer this one, I was in the overflow room, which I was lucky to even get in there, her first day of testimony the courtroom and overflow room were packed, some were sitting on the floor at one point. There was an abundance of media there. From what I could tell from the wide shot angle of TLM did appear to be looking at the crown when he was asking questions.

Did she appear "stuck for an answer" at times and start sobbing, wiping away tears or ask for a recess?

She was sobbing a lot at times, also took long pauses between answers, also asked to have a minute and at the time the crown then asked for afternoon recess. My hesitation for thinking her long pauses were to stall to get her answer together is because, even when her testimony began she was doing the same thing. The crown started very slowly, asking about her, her background, parents, where she grew up etc, throughout this whole time TLM was speaking very slowly and often taking long pauses, including after being asked about places where she grew up. I don’t want to say she came across as a little nervous but I did get the impression she did not want to be in the spotlight per say.

Or was her testimony as smooth as would be expected under the circumstances?

Her testimony was quite consistent, a lot of the time it was hard to hear her, either for sniffing, sobbing or talking very quietly as the day wore on and the testimony got more intense (meaning to the guts of what happened that day) she was definitely emotional. After she was saying she was having flash backs and was full of rage, and then was asked “what happened next” she did hesitate for a long time, she was sobbing and sniffing and then almost inaudibly she said “I savagely murdered that little girl”

Just wondering.......because the tweets tell us nothing about that.

I also wonder.......and odd question I know..........

What do you think would have been her reaction, had you got up from your seat, walked right up to her and stuck your face in her face, and told her you didn't believe her and she was a liar?

I have never thought of that, but I have a feeling that if I did that, she would be quote adamant that she was not lying and I would hope I wouldn’t get a punch in the face.


Any thoughts?

JMO.................



I don’t know if this helps at all Ardy, I was only there for her first day of testimony, so I didn’t get to see what happened on cross and I am just going by memory mostly. I can be quite a cynical person at times (like most I am sure) I just didn’t get the impression she was lying the whole time. She was very detailed in her statements about how, what, where MR was doing to TS, I couldn’t go into that if I was lying, but then I am nothing like her and it’s hard to know how her mind works. I think she put on a tough front, but maybe wasn’t as tough on the inside, yeah no hesitation in assaulting/stabbing people etc, but I think that she did want to feel loved, she got upset while talking about her childhood and being bullied as her mom was an alcoholic etc. In no way am I saying that I think she was completely duped and manipulated by MR, but I think there is a lot of truth to her story and they both were in this together.
 
I have a question.

Is it possible there there are many publication bans that the crown was unable to ask certain questions to help his case?

I feel that after this trial is over something is going to come out. Maybe it will have to do with MTR, TLM or other people.

I just have this sense that there is a reason why they havent dove into certain areas that are crucial in proving MTR's Guilt. JMO

I think we just are not getting all the information. I think many of the questions that we have, were actually asked of the witnesses, but for whatever reason, they were not tweeted or put into the articles at the end of the day. Maybe not sensational enough, or the reporter didn't think it was important or interesting. Remember - the reporters are not writing for hardcore WS sleuths - they are writing for the general public, so they pick and choose what they think the general public wants to read - not what sleuths want to read LOL

Salem
 
I think we just are not getting all the information. I think many of the questions that we have, were actually asked of the witnesses, but for whatever reason, they were not tweeted or put into the articles at the end of the day. Maybe not sensational enough, or the reporter didn't think it was important or interesting. Remember - the reporters are not writing for hardcore WS sleuths - they are writing for the general public, so they pick and choose what they think the general public wants to read - not what sleuths want to read LOL

Salem

I think you're right Salem. I remember the first day of TLM's testimony when the audio cut out while she was testifying about how MR would take her to homes that he knew the layout of and tell her that they could tie someone up and kidnap them. I'm sure there was more testimony about that after the audio cut out and the pictures of a couple of homes were entered into evidence and posted on some online sites but because of the explosive nature of the rest of the testimony, nothing from that part of the testimony was reported on from anyone in the courtroom who could hear it.

So I do think there is testimony that we are not getting via the tweet system or even in news articles.

MOO
 
Did MR state he knew her from this bar in his interview? I thought that was just internet gossip that she "hung around" there?

I thought that also. I don't recall MR ever saying that he actually knew her. I vaguely remember during the interview he said "he knew of her". TM started with the pressers daily right from the beginning of Tori's disappearance, so the interrview was was after the first few pressers.

I know there is testimony from TM saying she had met TLM on a few occassions, while purchasing drugs from her mother and then the discussion regarding dog breeding, though I don't recall TM saying she knew MR. Then again, I don't recall her saying she didn't know him either, though I think someone mentioned she had mentioned that in one of the pressers (I'm assuming after MR was arrested).
 
Remembering Tori Posted less than an hour ago by Blair R. Wilson

Remebering%20Tori%201%281%29.jpg
More than 3 years following the disappearance and untimely passing of 8 year old Tori Stafford, memories of the little girl continue to flourish in her favourite color.

Purple wristbands were handed out this morning by Tori’s Uncle Robert Stafford to members of the media at London’s courthouse prior to legal arguments between the defense and the Crown at the first degree murder trial of Michael Rafferty.

Wristbands were also handed to some members of the courts.

The wristbands, a collaborative effort provided by Tori’s Aunt and Uncle who flew out from Alberta over the weekend, along with Tori’s Grandmother Doreen, illustrate Tori’s birth date and the date Tori was lured away from her public school – April 8, 2009.
Remebering%20Tori%202%281%29.jpg

A small graphic of a ribbon and a butterfly are also embedded on the purple wristbands – one of Tori’s favourite creatures of nature.

An inscription was also placed on the wristbands where one Reporter gratefully accepted it, smiled and said quietly to the Stafford family "thank you, I will keep this forever”.

The first degree murder trial will resume Wednesday morning at 10 am.


http://www.1047.ca/local-news/michael-rafferty-trial



 
Does anyone know where I can get or purchase those bracelets?? TIA
 
Reposted as requested with pictures resized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxfactor
And for those who think he couldn't have just pulled up to Oliver Stephens to pick them up( if he really thought they were babysitting) I just found Oliver Stephens on Google Street View and lo and behold school buses lined up with the parents vehicles lined up behind them. So IMO that is just a load of cr*p.
Dang, my link isn't working!! Swedie!!! Help!!! lol

Respectfully, I don't remember anyone saying that you can't pull up into the school. Both myself and Ardy questioned whether you could because, at many schools, you can't.

As you can see by the google streetview, there is no parking on the street at any time on the school side, and during school arrival, lunch and departure times on the other side of the street. Judging by Kamille's photos of the views, it appears to be taken during school times since the buses are there, and the street itself is quite clear of cars parked illegally waiting.

School side:

ofblfm.jpg


Across from the school:

315cvn4.jpg


JMO
 
His demeanour during the whole thing still makes me wonder if he has done this before. He is way to calm, goes to get drugs, timmies etc. Without even being worried that he could get caught. How can someone be so calm with an 8yr old in the back seat that doesnt belong to them??? I really dont think Tori gave much of a struggle, she was probably too scared. JMO

It's possible she was subdued in some way, I was sure she had been given drugs, but there appears to have been no evidence of that. Perhaps he punched her, or TLM did say he wasn't too happy about them talking so he may have yelled at TS to shut up and at this point got really scared. Probably why she didn 't want to be left alone with him at Timmies.
 
That is not for certain. I looked for and posted some links about dangerous offender status in an earlier thread. First, very few women have been classified in that manner. Second, at least one of them had that status revoked and they were freed from jail. Pleading guilty and getting 25 years is not a benefit to her: if she would have went to trial, she might have been acquitted (IMO she wouldn't and shouldn't have been, but you never know with a jury). Please do the research on dangerous offender status; it isn't a given, nor is it akin to throwing away the key.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/LOP/ResearchPublications/prb0613-e.htm
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2010/10/21/f-dangerous-offender.html
http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/rsrch/reports/r125/r125-eng.shtml
eta: imo

I respectfully disagree, VS died in the course of a kidnapping ... 1st degree murder receive an automatic life sentence with no chance of parole for 25 years... after pleading guilty the kidnapping charges against her were dropped and she was not deemed a dangerous offender. The examples you supplied of the women deemed dangerous offenders (from link 2) were women charged with robbery or cocaine trafficking, nothing involiving the kidnapping of a child and murder.

April 30, 2010
Terri-Lynne McClintic pleads guilty to first-degree murder and is convicted. She is handed a sentence of mandatory life imprisonment, with a chance of parole in 25 years
 
It's possible she was subdued in some way, I was sure she had been given drugs, but there appears to have been no evidence of that. Perhaps he punched her, or TLM did say he wasn't too happy about them talking so he may have yelled at TS to shut up and at this point got really scared. Probably why she didn 't want to be left alone with him at Timmies.

But he was okay with leaving them to talk while he was in BA house for 10 minutes? Something not right with this. JMO
 
But he was okay with leaving them to talk while he was in BA house for 10 minutes? Something not right with this. JMO

I don't know if they were talking at that point, but MR could have been angry with TLM for talking to Tori about the things she liked. She asked Tori about her favorite shows and holiday. Rafferty probably didn't like that. JMO

She said Rafferty took the battery out of his cellphone and that he told her cover Stafford up with a black pea coat in the backseat. McClintic told the court that as she spoke with Stafford, the little girl told her that her favourite colour is purple, her favourite TV show is Hannah Montana and her favourite holiday is Halloween.

http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/03/13/...urtroom-details-of-tori-staffords-kidnapping/
 
Originally Posted by Alethea Dice
I hadn't watched the entire interview. Couldn't make it through it. I'll try to find some time later. I wonder why the sexual assault charge wasn't laid until a year later then?

It may have been but we just didn't hear about it because of the publication ban.

MOO

According to the media, that charge wasn't laid until June of 2010.

Rafferty also faces an additional charge of sexual assault causing bodily harm, reported Delaney. The charge, which is listed on Rafferty's indictment, was laid in June 2010.

http://http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/CanadaAM/20120116/michael-rafferty-pretrial-begins-120116/
 
I thought this post from SurfieTX in the Isabel Celis thread was interesting, and sure did suit this case.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7828030&postcount=2"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - AZ Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 #3[/ame]
 
She admitted the sexual assault during her polygraph, which I believe was 5/19/09. She went into detail at the videotaped confession on 5/24/2009. JMO

According to the tweets, she didn't confess until her lengthy interrogation after the polygraph test.

Adrian Morrow@AdrianMorrow
Court is watching video of Detective-Sergeant Jim Smyth giving Terri-Lynne McClintic the polygraph.

Adrian Morrow@AdrianMorrow
In the video, McClintic looks as she did in her famous arrest photos, with corn rows, glasses and a sleeveless black top.

Adrian Morrow@AdrianMorrow
McClintic also says in polygraph she was wearing clothes different than the woman in the white puffy coat, including a dressy coat

Adrian Morrow@AdrianMorrowReply On May 19, McClintic says, OPP detective Jim Smyth administered a polygraph test

Adrian Morrow@AdrianMorrowReply At first, Terri-Lynne McClintic says, she lied to Jim Smyth. Then, later that day, she confessed and was charged.

James Armstrong@jamesarmstrong7Reply McClintic said she didn't tell the truth during polygraph test. Told them "that I didn't know anything"

The 12-member jury also was shown two police videos Thursday of McClintic speaking with investigators on April 12, 2009 - just days after Tori was killed. The second video was taken on May 19, 2009, when she went into the Woodstock police station for a polygraph test.


In both videos, she seemed relaxed and at times jovial. She admitted to being in the area of the school on the day of the Tori's disappearance but told the police she had not talked to or saw anyone.


When pressed by police, she suggested that Tori's mother Tara McDonald and her partner James Goris were responsible, because she had heard they had drug debts.
http://http://www2.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=6342158
 
..IMO a terrible deed was commited MURDER of an innocent 9 year old who was left for 3 mths in an undigified manner ...naked from the waist down and wrapped in GARBAGE BAGs and under pile of heavy rocks in a secluded farm area ...chances of being found slim!........ I do believe she was also RAPED ..as tough as this is to TYPE...IMO again! ....I feel strongly IMO that the evidense is CLEAR that MR was INVOLVED! ... it is clearly shown him driving his car after tori was ABUCTED ... so I MUST say I am PUZZLED as to why there are so many opinions that HE MAY not be guilty ...Imo I am having a very hard time reading this now....Yes I know the defense has not presented their case ...BUt ...IMO only>>> How can they possibly get him off ....???...He is ON VIDEO in numerous locations on that horrid day ...April 8 , 2009....again this in my opinion and yes I do understand MANY MAY have conflicting views and so be it .....But when someone is CLearly on Video ...kind of a no brainer IMO ...Plus he had 3 mths to get rid of the evidence( which he tried very hard to do..)if so much time did not lapse after the MURDER ... I am confident that we would have Little LEFT DOUBT in all of our minds more percisely what had occured ! ...thanks robynhood...I do respect others opposing views we all have the freedom in Canada to do have different views .BUT it all seems very concrete IMO again...I guess soon we will hear the defense's side ...and sure they are INTITLED to do this ...just hope it is NOT the same OLD BS about how bad a person TLM is and her music taste as IMO ...this holds very little crediablity ...especially her music ..OMG...hold on to your hats as I am Not looking forward to their side ....I think Tori's family has been thru the worst nightmare any Parent could face ....IMO I feel the TORI LAW needs to be looked at as crimes against children in our nation seems to growing terribly! ......especially by young offenders i ....Please listen closely was commented made ...and yes I do want to hear it explained as the defense indicated before the TRIAL that>>> something like...do not make judgements till you hear our side ....well all ears ...Mr. Defense!...robynhood...I stress again this is just IMO again!..robynhood

I for one do not know if MR is guilty or not guilty, he certainly is not innocent.

My only argument is that our first thought as a society is to believe in cases like this, the women must have been brutalized into unwillingly participant in these horrific crimes, by her abusive overbearing partners. However in this case I believe TLM was the aggressor, the dominate and MR role has yet to be established. If we don’t change our opinions about what evil young women are capable of we will find ourselves losing more children. For example, KH … she was an equal participate, and it wasn’t until after her involvement that girls started being killed.
 
Thanks to Jezebel for taking the time to reply to my post about being in court and watching TLM testify.

I sure wish we had live television cameras in our trials.

We are still behind the times, given the age of the internet and twitter universe. Information is out there now.........so not having television coverage doesn't make much sense anymore........IMO

As previously said, the reporters are just giving a very broad outlline of what is said, and it is directed at the general public, not the detail oriented Websleuthers.

JMO........
 
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