The Springfield Three--missing since June 1992 - #4

Thought I would post this on the George's sighting. It states some of the reasoning behind the police believing the tip was not credible.

"Police are skeptical the sighting of the three at Georges Steak House on June 7 was authentic, said Worsham and Webb. The timing of the sighting and the clothing wore is inconsistent with known facts." NL July 6, 1992

they were seen somewhere and followed home.....and then abducted.....if not aducted before hand, one or more, then taken back to the house.....or this abduction was planned in advance........they were taken from the house, that much we are pretty sure about.............its the where after, that matters now.........they could not have been taken far, like out of state etc.......to risky, taken somewhere, that they could get to, before the streets became crowded with traffic........somewhere isolated, or private.........and perhaps a private area, property, where there would have been no trespassers to contend with.........if like here in Indiana, there are many, many old barns on private property, where no one lives anymore, but the barns are still there........a area such as that, but also close to water, such as pond or lake that could be access by vehicle, .........we have property here, with side roads, that lead up into a area, that you have to open a gate that crosses the road, to get up and into the property, many of these you would not know existed, unless you knew about them as you passed, or you happened to notice the small untraveled road leading up and into off the main road......................there has to be areas such as these there at the time, that could have been better seen from the air.......and i assume a air search looking for such areas was conducted..............ALL MOO, NOTHING FACTUAL OR FOR CERTAIN, ALL SPECULATION ON MY PART.

I still think you find the van, you will find the women, especially if they were seen that day by the porch lady, it would be easier to get rid of everything at once, instead of disposing of the women first, then trying to get rid of the van......and since neither has been seen since that time, i still think the vehicle and women were submerged into water, similiar to the link i posted awhile back about the 3 men missing in a van, found submerged in a lake........and in that case, i have not checked, but im assuming through DNA it was the 3 men they assumed it was?

tangledweb said:

Me too. TG, that name you sent me, Christopher E. Revak, the one who hung himself after being arrested in the death of Rene Williams of Ava, MO, might turn out to be significant after all. Veroni.net shows him living in STRAFFORD, MO, OZARK, MO & WISCONSIN RAPIDS, WI.

Wisconsin Rapids is where Diedre Harm was found murdered. I had posted a person of interest wanted for questioning in her WS thread. I posted it again below. If you run across a photo of Revak, see if it matches the one below.


[URL]http://www.helpfindthemissing.org/forum/showthread.php?p=642932[/url]

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I thought LE had made an arrest in Deidre's murder recently. Is that incorrect?

gaia227 said:

I thought LE had made an arrest in Deidre's murder recently. Is that incorrect?

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No, her murder is still unsolved.

Greetings all, this is my first post to this site, but I have been lurking it for quite a while…It is often stated here that it is desirable to see this case from a fresh viewpoint, and I believe that I have one that none here have, as no matter how cynical you may be, you are all ‘good people’, while I am not really: I am a sociopath and a sexual sadist – while I have never harmed anyone, and no longer have any intention of doing so, that is only because of intervention, therapy and monitoring before I had escalated past the ‘trolling’ stage. I have in the intervening years developed my sense of empathy to the point where I desire to see justice for victims of violent crimes, however I still do have the old fantasies and urges sitting in my head, and that is the viewpoint from which I am looking at this case, under the old ‘it takes a thief’ concept…

Please forgive the length of this analysis/scenario, which I will be using multiple posts for, and also for taking the time to point out/explain certain things that have already been discussed, as I find it convenient to talk about those things within the same body of work rather than attempting to dig up links to previous posts on those matters…

First off, we need to get rid of the assumption that the perp was known to the victims or otherwise had to enter through the front door just because there was no sign of forced entry and Sherrill was security conscious. As has been noted multiple times, there was a unique circumstance that night that may have negated the ‘all doors and windows locked’ scenario: Sherril was varnishing furniture that night, which means that there was a need for windows to be open to properly ventilate the home (central air wouldn’t work for those purposes), and even if she had decided to just ride out the fumes in her room with the door shut, the girls would not have had that option due to Suzie’s room having no interior door, and they very likely would have opted to open the sliding glass door to air things out (remember, teens think nothing bad could ever happen to them) – either way, you have a viable means of entry that would not show the next day, as the perps could have simply shut the door/window before leaving. And before anyone argues about window screens, unless you are talking about new, expensive all-in-one window setups, screens are very easy to pop out of the way without leaving signs of tampering if you know what you are doing.

When I look at this scenario, it SCREAMS serial killer or some other form of sexual predator – specifically an organized, sociopathic sexual-sadist, very likely working alone. To be rather crude, this initial crime scene is a sexual predator’s wet dream…as my analysis progresses, I think that you will see why I say this.

When the FBI ‘profiler’ stated that ‘this case is like no other that we (the FBI) have seen’, he was either grandstanding or an idiot, because this initial crime scene bears strong resemblance to a number of other cases – it is only in the exact combination of all details that it is unique, and that can be said for a large number of homicide/missing persons cases. A convenient way of getting across my point is to use Dennis Rader (the BTK killer), who was a home invasion style serial killer, as a reference point (there are multiple reasons for this choice). Essentially, this scenario is what you would end up with if you gave Rader a brain (LE was amazed and a bit chagrined at how stupid he turned out to be – they overestimated him to a gross degree, not an uncommon thing as people tend to confuse cleverness with intelligence) and a secure locale to ‘play’ in. In fact, this scenario is near identical to his ‘ideal’ fantasy – the only reason Rader made his kills ‘on site’ is because he did not have a secure location to remove his victims to…and with the exception of the Bright murder (when he screwed up by not bringing his own bindings), Rader had things in hand to have been able to have removed his targets with NO SIGN OF STRUGGLE, and in at least two cases (the Otero and Wegerle murders) no sign of forced entry (granting of course that his trademark cutting of the phone lines and panty raiding would immediately raise suspicions).

Let us take a quick look at aspects of some of Rader’s crimes and see what they can tell us about how this one may have proceeded. Rader was able to quickly gain control of all of the victims with no struggle and little trouble through a combination of a gun and his sociopathic lying skills, reassuring his victims that if they allowed him to bind them he wouldn’t harm them. Most of the time he told them that he was on the run from the law and just needed some food and the car, and was going to tie them up so they couldn’t call the cops on him. In the Fox and Viand cases, he told her that he was a sexual deviant that was just going to tie her up and take some pictures and then rape her, but had no intention of otherwise harming her. In all cases they bought it long enough for him to render them defenseless, even though he had to juggle holding the gun and binding them. This tells us that it is quite easy for even a coward like Rader (who was scared of a teen boy half his weight) to single handedly take control of a number of individuals to the point that he can do whatever he wishes with them pretty much from the outset. Keep in mind that in the Otero case the father was a big guy that had been in the Special Forces, and the entire family other than the youngest boy had lots of self-defense and martial arts training, even 11 year old Josie.

With the exception of one acquaintance, none of Rader’s victims knew him, yet through careful stalking after his trolling found a potential target, he knew their routines quite well with only the limited observation of regularly driving by the residence at a variety of times of day. He also did test runs on the targeted houses to find out what the security/points of entry looked like. Neither of these are unusual techniques, being used by burglars and other home invaders, and would account for the Van/car sightings in the preceding weeks, along with the reports of suspicious activity in the immediate neighborhood that evening if the perp was cutting through yards to check out the vulnerable back end of the house without being seen from the street. This last follows Rader’s technique of parking nearby and making way to the home on foot. This also opens up the possibility that the perp was just doing a test run that night, but then found that the circumstances were just too tempting to resist (easy point of entry because of fumes, an additional hot teen to grab, nearest neighbor is out of town), and decided to make it a go (a very large percentage of serial rapists/killers have the materials needed to ‘do the job’ on hand at all times, starting at a point long before they do their first hit, and especially when prowling).

With regards to why the trolling perp would decide to go into stalk mode with this residence, I need only point out that a household with an attractive teen daughter, no male residents, and fencing/hedges obscuring various parts of the house is an ideal target.

Another bit of info that we can get from Rader’s confessions is that an assailant can, once the victims are bound, conceivably strangle them into unconsciousness and buy enough time to pretty much do whatever one wants, which in our perps case can be going to retrieve the van, leaving the women alone without having to worry, and then loading them into it without a struggle to draw attention, rendering them unconscious again as needed. It is also conceivable that if the perp just gets off on the killing itself, the women could have been strangled to death in a short period and then their bodies taken off site for disposal, as Rader did in his last two attacks. Rader’s attacks took relatively little time, usually less than an hour, including goofing around with the victim’s cars, telling us that our perp had more than enough time to do a simple grab and go.

The final clue that we can get from Rader is that, contrary to the assumptions made in profiles, a serial killer does NOT necessarily have any prior criminal record, unstable marriages or other outward signs of being a sociopath or whatnot, and that when that is the case, if they only go after strangers, about the only way to catch them is through their own stupidity (which is a bad sign for us if I am right in my scenario)

Continued in next post...

Now, enough about idiot boy, on to how I see things going down. Two weeks before the fateful night, our villain spots (most likely) Suzie whilst out trolling (which he may have been doing for any amount of time, and over any size territory – trolling is often a wandering, random process, and this may even have been the perp’s first time trolling Springfield at all). Seeing an interesting prospect, the perp makes note and starts returning to the area to observe the house and general area, getting an idea of schedules, occupants, and viability of the house itself as a target. After some two weeks of this, the perp has come up with some basic game plans, and decides to do a dry run, with the porential for it to turn real if things look ideal.

The best time to do such a run is in the early hours of the morning, when there is little likelihood that there are potential observers awake and about, thus our perp most likely does not arrive in the backyard of the house until after midnight, and more likely after two or three in the morning. The perp either gets in place a bit before or a bit after the girls arrive and start to settle in for the night, and that’s when they likely give him the ideal setup of opening the sliding door to air out fumes from the varnish, and at the same time settle down watching a movie on the tv (there’s nothing on tv to watch at that time of morning other than skinemax, thus accounting for the VCR being on), which is facing opposite from the sliding door. The combination of their positioning/attention on the boob-tube and the moderate noise from the thing allows our perp to gain accesss to the room and be in close enough to quietly threaten the girls into submission using a gun, or even just an intimidating looking knife.

Once the girls are bound and gagged, our perp has to deal with the mom and the dog. Potentially, the dog is wandering the neighborhood at this point, but we can’t really assume that. Now if the dog has run of the house at this point, the perp may have forced Suzie to calm the animal and drop it over the fence, while if it is in Sherril’s room, the perp need only enter the room and threaten to kill the girls quickly enough that there is no time for the dog to alert her, and no time for her to call 911 or grab the gun she is speculated to have possessed. Once she is cowed, it’s just a matter of having her calm the dog/sticking it in the closet and marching her into her daughter’s room and binding and gagging her as well. If our perp is prepared with his own bindings (pre-tied ropes, zip ties etc), this entire process could take as little as five or ten minutes, leaving him at leisure to do as he wishes.

At this point things can take several courses depending on whether the perp has experience with strangulation, balls/recklessness, or is impatient/impotent (most SK’s focused solely on the kill are impotent and make up for it that way). If the perp knows how to do controlled strangulation, then we get the render them unconscious for a controlled exit strategy. If he’s in the last category, then he kills them and then is able to abscond with the bodies with little trouble other than the unwieldy nature of corpses (though I doubt this scenario, as shortly after death (or during the process), the body tends to lose bowel and bladder control which would leave traces for LE to pick up later). Finally, if neither of those apply, then our perp is ballsy and/or stupid, and he leaves to grab the van/car and just lucks out that none of the women manage to escape during that period.

At the point when the perp gets the van/car to the house, or before he leaves, he realizes that he needs to move Sherril’s car, and grabs all of the purses, not knowing which holds the key he needs. Finding the correct one, and for one reason or another not caring about the money (this is after all a man focused on power and sex to the exclusion of all other concerns, else he wouldn’t have reached the point of committing this act in the first place), he leaves the purses where he gathered them and goes about the predictable tasks of vehicle and women moving, cleans the scene of clues as best he can, and potentially takes some seemingly trivial keepsakes (say, some of Sherril’s shoes, perhaps some panties, nothing noticeable, unless it was Stacey’s overnight bag – Rader liked to do that, but he was pretty sloppy compared to our guy, and his theft was noticeable as he left the drawers in disarray). The perp and women/bodies then go to his prechosen safe area (either a local one shot or a non-local long term one), and what happens then just depends on his particular fetishes, and is invariably bad for the women.

Now as far as the ‘Suzie driving’ sighting, it is a possibility in the ‘ballsy/stupid’ scenario, but as far as van sightings go, I’m sticking with the papergirl sighting of the van parked nearby, and the multiple over two weeks sightings, as they came out immediately and didn’t contain any extraneous detail – for some reason I just don’t trust the porch-lady account. (Note, the over two week reports were apparently of a car or a van depending on the witness, and the perp may very well have used one vehicle for scouting and one for his runs in order to confuse potential witnesses/reduce chances of drawing extra attention on his run nights)

Okay, so this scenario still hasn’t answered the broken light cover, but it seems to me that the ‘knocked loose while carrying women’ scenario works just fine here – breaking it while trying to unscrew the bulb to disguise the exit doesn’t make sense, as he has access to the lightswitch, and of course breaking it as a ruse doesn’t fit at all, nor is it a particularly good concept in the first place.

Last bit next post...

Now as to why I said that this is most likely a solo job – our perp left a very organized initial crime scene, with no signs of having committed any truly violent acts on site, which tells us that he is of the sociopathic variety of serial killer (psychopaths almost invariably leave messy crime scenes, and most often have only one crime scene, attacking, killing and then leaving in a blitz attack with no concern for disguising the crime). Sociopath serial killers that have partners almost always go with a psychopath or a submissive, as sociopaths tend to have too much friction over control and manipulations being perceived by each other to work well together. When there is a soc/psych mix, you tend to get a muddled crime scene, with a mix of organized and disorganized elements, which we don’t have here. With a submissive partner, that partner’s worship tends to get to the sociopath’s already swollen head, and the pair gets more and more over the top until they are inevitably caught, and we haven’t had any partnerships like that get caught that would match up in time/space with this crime.

So what does this scenario tell us? Essentially, if I am right, then our perp is a stranger, quite likely not from the immediate area, probably either transient or traveling a lot through their job, was solo and sociopathic (thus killing any chance of sudden confessions, it being a conspiracy of one, that one having little or no real conscience), had sex and power alone as a motivation, most likely never returned to the area after the crime, likely had a secondary crime scene that was relatively distant and isolated, and has probably killed again since unless he was caught or died (and if LE does have DNA/fingerprints from the crime scene of his, then he hasn’t been caught for anything serious). Cox and the Peacock brothers possibly fit the mold here, but for some reason I have my doubts, particularly about Cox...just a gut feeling there. In conclusion, barring some freak occurance or the perp escalating into psychopathic behavior (like Ted Bundy did), I really don’t see much chance of the perp ever being found, and I really think LE needs to open their files to the public in the hopes of at least being able to find the bodies and give the families a little closure.

Personally, I find this scenario to be far more KISS worthy than any conspiracy theories involving drug hits or hidden money, as the flaws in those types of victims’ backgrounds that draw the fire down on them tend to come out to the police and media pretty quickly in the post Eisenhower US. In addition, it gives us the reason for LE being so tight lipped – LE NEVER admits to potential serial killers unless the media forces them into it, which hasn’t happened here, and when the potential serial killer’s MO doesn’t match up with the known potential SK’s in the broad area, they really don’t like to share that info.

Okay, so there’s my rather longwinded take on things – whatcha think?

I think your views are most interesting and I will study at length. We could use a point of view that is not usually shared.

I will tell you that I still personally believe Cox is the perpetrator. I see nothing to rule him out. I think his motive was the sheer pleasure of committing this crime. But I do disagree about your take on the profiler. I believe he was correct and this was a sexually motivated crime. That was also Bundy's motive. It was the control over his victims. Rapes are not committed for the sex. It is committed for the control but is viewed as "sexual assault." What other way to better control and humiliate a victim than subject them to the most base of evil such as Bundy practiced. Bundy went one step further and into necrophilia. Not only did he control his victims in life but he also controlled them in death. How depraved is that?

I will also tell you that I view Cox as a serial predator and murderer.

More later.

Thank you MM...

I should point out that I do agree with the profiler's view of this as a sexually motivated crime, and that it was all about power and control...what I was disagreeing with was his statement that this is an utterly unique crime, which it is not (if I am mistaken that it was he who made that statement, then I withdraw my assertion about his character)

The main reason that I doubt Cox as a suspect is merely one of my impression of his style - like many Rangers that lose it, he seems the 'snap' type of killer...but that's just an impression, thus why I said that it's just a gut feeling

I should also note that Rader's cases teach us that a serial killer can indeed successfully start with a seemingly overly ambitious multiple murder, as his first murder was of four members of the Otero family...

Interesting, everyone has there own thoughts. This is definately a different perspective. It also answers many of the questions as why the town still has no clue what happened. Urban legend has taken over. Never been too impressed with Rader, his era of crimes was pre DNA, hard to say how he would fair today. Cox isnt strong in my book, too many questions unanswered about his ability to pull this off alone, discrediting his alibi, checking his vehicle at the time. Pretty poor at carrying out his crimes, but you never know though, his word is mud, so I need something more to point to him, before I give him serious consideration. I have been looking at other sexually assaults in the area, havent found anything strong yet, but there were some going on back then.

Trooogrit said:

I have been looking at other sexually assaults in the area, havent found anything strong yet, but there were some going on back then.

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There was Gerald Carnahan. I heard several stories of women who told stories that they had been followed and barely got away from someone and when Carnahan's pictures were made public, they all named him.

There was that other nut, who was killed in LeAnne Gregg's apartment. He had been a nuisance for over 10 years. I remember living at the dorm at MSU (then SMS) in 1979-80 and we were warned to keep our drapes closed so no one could peak in. The campus could have but didn't step up to this problem.

Also, there was at least one black rapist who struck around the MSU campus in the early 80s. I worked with a girl who was attacked by him. I don't remember if he was ever caught.

I can't remember any more right now, although I am sure there were more.

Luzer said:

There was Gerald Carnahan. I heard several stories of women who told stories that they had been followed and barely got away from someone and when Carnahan's pictures were made public, they all named him.

There was that other nut, who was killed in LeAnne Gregg's apartment. He had been a nuisance for over 10 years. I remember living at the dorm at MSU (then SMS) in 1979-80 and we were warned to keep our drapes closed so no one could peak in. The campus could have but didn't step up to this problem.

Also, there was at least one black rapist who struck around the MSU campus in the early 80s. I worked with a girl who was attacked by him. I don't remember if he was ever caught.

I can't remember any more right now, although I am sure there were more.

Click to expand...

This is copied from what I wrote in the suspect thread about Carnahan:

Gerald Carnahan is finally going on trial for the murder of Jackie Johns. He stands accused of abducting, raping and killing Jackie dumping her body in Springfield Lake. Gerald has quite a long history of violent and erractic behavior. Just to recap:

• his wife took a restraining order out on him after he threatened to kidnap and kill her.
• In 1993 he was arrested for trying to abduct an 18 yr old girl on Ingram MIll Road.
• He was arrested at a later date for wielding a gun while intoxicated.
• He was arrested again for trying to burn down a competitors business and was charged with arson and burglary.
• Arrested again for letting the brake fluid out of his neighbors car.
• In the months after Jackie's murder he was arrested in L.A. for tampering with evidence in her case.
• arrested for lying to the original grand jury and unbelievably it was another 20 yrs before he was finally arrested.

Trooogrit said:

Interesting, everyone has there own thoughts. This is definately a different perspective. It also answers many of the questions as why the town still has no clue what happened. Urban legend has taken over. Never been too impressed with Rader, his era of crimes was pre DNA, hard to say how he would fair today. Cox isnt strong in my book, too many questions unanswered about his ability to pull this off alone, discrediting his alibi, checking his vehicle at the time. Pretty poor at carrying out his crimes, but you never know though, his word is mud, so I need something more to point to him, before I give him serious consideration. I have been looking at other sexually assaults in the area, havent found anything strong yet, but there were some going on back then.

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I have never been too impressed with Rader either, really he's proof that some twisted Angel watches over idiots - however, DNA was not useful against him UNTIL he messed up and handed them his identity on a silver platter...it was useless until then, because he had never been in trouble with the law...that's what makes him a great example of why this case may end up being unsolvable...if the perp here is an 'under the radar' type of killer that keeps out of trouble other than his lethal escapades, or if there is no DNA at the initial crime scene (which is very likely in a case where any rapes or murders took place elsewhere), then it's another BTK situation, except this guy doesn't seem to be the 'play with the cops' type, unless it actually is Cox.

SkewedView said:

I have never been too impressed with Rader either, really he's proof that some twisted Angel watches over idiots - however, DNA was not useful against him UNTIL he messed up and handed them his identity on a silver platter...it was useless until then, because he had never been in trouble with the law...that's what makes him a great example of why this case may end up being unsolvable...if the perp here is an 'under the radar' type of killer that keeps out of trouble other than his lethal escapades, or if there is no DNA at the initial crime scene (which is very likely in a case where any rapes or murders took place elsewhere), then it's another BTK situation, except this guy doesn't seem to be the 'play with the cops' type, unless it actually is Cox.

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This is the great mystery. Why was there no forensic evidence inside the home? The ONLY thing, to my knowledge, we have ever been advised is that it is an established fact that Stacy is known to have exited out the front OR her DNA was found on the front porch. (the exact circumstances are not known). That suggests to me that PERHAPS the women were abducted outside the home. And then, this goes back to the disputed George's sighting. It does not, however, explain the stacked purses. I don't have a good explanation for that dichotomy. They obviously didn't stack themselves, although I suppose it is possible that the girls stayed outside and they gave their purses to Sherrill who took all three purses inside and stacked them. That might explain that problem.

If the George's meeting took place, AND upon returning and the girls stayed outside to chit-chat with the men claimed to be there, and Sherrill came outside to find out what was going on later on, then that might explain why no DNA was there. As you say, Rader left DNA but they didn't have a sample of his DNA to match until shortly before he was apprehended. We don't have any known DNA or fingerprints or other forensics EXCEPT from the known people who were inside the house. This is why I have insisted that they be eliminated FIRST before we go off on some other wild goose chase. Applying your KISS principle, this seems to me the first order of business.

And not to sound like a broken record, I do not and will not, until shown otherwise, that this case was properly and thoroughly investigated. That is my opinion only, but I believe it is well based.

And until proven otherwise, I will likewise continue to believe that Robert Craig Cox, is the lone perpetrator who abducted the women. He has no alibi and he has no incentive to confess to the crime so he sits mute in his prison cell in Lovelady, Texas playing games if "catch me if you can."

Missouri Mule said:

This is the great mystery. Why was there no forensic evidence inside the home? The ONLY thing, to my knowledge, we have ever been advised is that it is an established fact that Stacy is known to have exited out the front OR her DNA was found on the front porch. (the exact circumstances are not known). That suggests to me that PERHAPS the women were abducted outside the home. And then, this goes back to the disputed George's sighting. It does not, however, explain the stacked purses. I don't have a good explanation for that dichotomy. They obviously didn't stack themselves, although I suppose it is possible that the girls stayed outside and they gave their purses to Sherrill who took all three purses inside and stacked them. That might explain that problem.

If the George's meeting took place, AND upon returning and the girls stayed outside to chit-chat with the men claimed to be there, and Sherrill came outside to find out what was going on later on, then that might explain why no DNA was there. As you say, Rader left DNA but they didn't have a sample of his DNA to match until shortly before he was apprehended. We don't have any known DNA or fingerprints or other forensics EXCEPT from the known people who were inside the house. This is why I have insisted that they be eliminated FIRST before we go off on some other wild goose chase. Applying your KISS principle, this seems to me the first order of business.

And not to sound like a broken record, I do not and will not, until shown otherwise, that this case was properly and thoroughly investigated. That is my opinion only, but I believe it is well based.

And until proven otherwise, I will likewise continue to believe that Robert Craig Cox, is the lone perpetrator who abducted the women. He has no alibi and he has no incentive to confess to the crime so he sits mute in his prison cell in Lovelady, Texas playing games if "catch me if you can."

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I wouldn't say that it's at all surprising for there to be a lack of forensic evidence in this case, as there was no sexual activity or violence to leave any DNA, and if it was a home invasion, the perp most likely wore gloves and something to keep his hair from being left behind...that pretty much accounts for all of it other than maybe some bits from his clothes, and with all of the activity in the house the next day, even that would be lost...it's actually surprising how clean an initial crime scene can be if nothing really happens there other than securing the victim.


That having been said, on reflection I realized that I can say from personal experience that the 'followed the girls home from the parties and let in by them' scenario is definitely viable, and without requiring that the girls knew the perp before that night either (I can provide detail on my own experience to show why I say that, but I don't want to risk hijacking the thread, so I'll wait until someone tells me it'll be okay), and in that case if LE didn't manage to get the names of all of the party-goers, that's some bad...mind you, getting such a list when the parties have under-age drinkers at them is well-nigh impossible, so I wouldn't call that a botched investigation, merely incomplete.

Luzer said:

There was Gerald Carnahan. I heard several stories of women who told stories that they had been followed and barely got away from someone and when Carnahan's pictures were made public, they all named him.

There was that other nut, who was killed in LeAnne Gregg's apartment. He had been a nuisance for over 10 years. I remember living at the dorm at MSU (then SMS) in 1979-80 and we were warned to keep our drapes closed so no one could peak in. The campus could have but didn't step up to this problem.

Also, there was at least one black rapist who struck around the MSU campus in the early 80s. I worked with a girl who was attacked by him. I don't remember if he was ever caught.

I can't remember any more right now, although I am sure there were more.

Click to expand...

I tried to look up the 'Leanne Gregg nut' to see the specifics, but couldn't find anything - do you have any further information?

I do like the idea of throwing out a net to find rapists that potentially might have escalated, though I will say that it might do to narrow it down to abduction-rapes and the more sophisticated home invasion rapes, as any outdoor or blitz style rapists really wouldn't fit the MO here - also, one can cast a pretty wide net geographically, as many criminals that decide to escalate to murder decide to wander over into the next county to commit the crime, knowing that the lack of cooperation between jurisdictions can kill an investigation.

gaia227 said:

This is copied from what I wrote in the suspect thread about Carnahan:

Gerald Carnahan is finally going on trial for the murder of Jackie Johns. He stands accused of abducting, raping and killing Jackie dumping her body in Springfield Lake. Gerald has quite a long history of violent and erractic behavior. Just to recap:

• his wife took a restraining order out on him after he threatened to kidnap and kill her.
• In 1993 he was arrested for trying to abduct an 18 yr old girl on Ingram MIll Road.
• He was arrested at a later date for wielding a gun while intoxicated.
• He was arrested again for trying to burn down a competitors business and was charged with arson and burglary.
• Arrested again for letting the brake fluid out of his neighbors car.
• In the months after Jackie's murder he was arrested in L.A. for tampering with evidence in her case.
• arrested for lying to the original grand jury and unbelievably it was another 20 yrs before he was finally arrested.

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Well, Carnahan does have quite the pedigree here, but I have to wonder how sloppy he might be to have been caught so many times...I mean, some of these are idiotically blatant moves (though audacity is not by any means counter-indicitive of an ability to leave a clean crime scene, as some of Ted Bundy's crimes can attest)...do you have any links that might indicate whether he is an organized or chaotic criminal?

SkewedView said:

I tried to look up the 'Leanne Gregg nut' to see the specifics, but couldn't find anything - do you have any further information?

I do like the idea of throwing out a net to find rapists that potentially might have escalated, though I will say that it might do to narrow it down to abduction-rapes and the more sophisticated home invasion rapes, as any outdoor or blitz style rapists really wouldn't fit the MO here - also, one can cast a pretty wide net geographically, as many criminals that decide to escalate to murder decide to wander over into the next county to commit the crime, knowing that the lack of cooperation between jurisdictions can kill an investigation.

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There probably isn't anything on the Gregg matter because the News-Leader didn't archive their newspapers until 1999 if my memory serves me correctly. Going on memory, it seems the individual killed by a friend or boyfriend had stalked the news anchor. So far as I know he didn't have a lengthy history. But to check further, if his name could be recalled, a check of the Greene County Circuit Clerk's files which is on the internet might reveal his history if he had any. I would seriously doubt he had anything to do with this crime.