Possible Murder Motives#2

Labrat said:

Extremely dirty cages become very humid inside, the bedding gets wet and the food molds. It is not a pretty sight.

Pups (baby mice) will die of hypothermia if the cage floods. If a cage is without food or water for too long, mice will cannibilize any pups in the cage.

Mice will sometimes fight, especially the males and they can wound each other very badly.

If you do not wean a litter at the correct time, within a week or two all the females will be pregnant. If you are really negligent, you could end up with a LOT of mice in one cage.

Husbandry SOP is 5 adult mice per cage, or one mating pair plus litter per cage. If you do harem mating, you have to take the pregnant females out of the cage before they give birth, because you can't have multiple litters in one cage.

It is sometimes very difficult for the animal techs, because ultimately they are responsible for the mice in the room, but the mice belong to the PI, not the technician, so there can be some tension there.

Good technicians really do have a hard time if students and techs are sloppy in the room. Alternately, it can be maddening to a PI to be assigned a careless animal tech.

I would suspect it was not a regular cage or a food/water issue because he would be responsible for that. It was more likley something to do with specially flagged cages or overcrowding since she would be responsible for that. Animal techs are not expected to do any weaning, that's the responsibility of the lab.

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That's exactly what I think. Now, could you kindly explain what happens when the mice are overcrowded and the level of ammonia rises?

Jersey*Girl said:

Thank you Labrat...you are invaluable!

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Ain't that the truth! There are several people contributing to these threads who have been a real goldmine of information about how labs work.

Sola.N said:

Ain't that the truth! There are several people contributing to these threads who have been a real goldmine of information about how labs work.

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Yep! Tons of intelligent info has been added to these threads thanks to the multitude of scientists, cops, lawyers, and psychiatrists. That's a fact, Jack!

Track292008 said:

Thanks to all who responded to my post on the earlier thread! I read the first ones, then was gone for the day, so still want to go back over the subsequent pages there.

Couple of thoughts:

I expect Annie was impatient with much that was going on at Yale that day as she was planning on leaving for her wedding soon and her thoughts were undoubtedly on the future. One thing she probably felt she didn't need was an unexpected, unscheduled trip to the animal facility; she may have thought she had everything wrapped up there to be taken care of during her absence. But she was so dutiful and responsible that she went there at the requested time. Very sad, indeed.

I would also like to add that these mice in question were not field mice or mice that might be found in the cellar/basement of a home. Yale had a lot invested in these mice -- in terms of protocols, treatments, medicines, investigators. I expect that the mice had to be analyzed (perhaps dissected) at certain times to determine if these protocols, medicines, treatments, etc., were having their desired effect. Given that, it could be construed as demeaning to say that Raymond Clark "cleaned mice cages" for a living. Not to defend what he is accused of doing to Annie, in any way. But just to encourage a thought or two about the language used in reference to his job which, after all, he had held for four years.

MOO.

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He wouldn't be analyzing the mice to see if treatments had effects. That is the job of people like Annie. His job was to take care of the mice, feed them and clean their cages.

Sola.N said:

Is it common for a grad student to have the same one or two animal techs assigned to her project, or would pretty much anyone on the animal tech staff handle her particular mice? I'm wondering if RC was her designated animal tech, in which case she'd have more reason to talk to him. And if she had to make arrangements with someone about what to do with her mice when she was out of town, would it be just one tech or their supervisor or another grad student?

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The animal tech would be assigned to the room, not her project specifically. Many times there are multiple PIs with animals in a single room, sometimes just one. I do not share my mouse rooms, but a large room could have 10 or more PI's mice in it. An extremely large room might have 2 animal techs.

He was the tech in her room, but it is entirely possible they had very little contact except when there was a problem.
If the tech is working in my room I don't go in- we'd just get in each other's way. She does the AM room checks and then has other duties in the rest of the facility- transports, autoclaving, etc. The day she does change out, I stay out of the mouse room all day. It's full of dirty cages going out, clean cages going in, etc. If I absolutely have to- I run in during her lunch break.

There are two things going on with research mice. One is husbandry. This is the responsibility of the animal room tech. It includes changing cages, food and water, keeping adequate supplies in the room, sanitizing, flagging sick or injured mice, housing new mouse deliveries, etc. This happens automatically 24/7/365. She would not make arrangements of any sort with the animal room tech for this.

The second thing is her research project itself. This would be breeding to keep the colony going, any genotyping needed, any experiments, medicated water or special diets. This is not the responsibility of the animal room technician. If anything like this needed to be done while she was away, it would be someone from her research lab who would do this.

Animal room techs handle the mice only in their assigned room- they will not go into another room. Some facilities rotate techs so that they have a different room every week. In others the tech can have the same room for a long time.

Labrat, look:

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache...Yale+rodent+services&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Quote
The Rodent Service provides comprehensive breeding and colony management services to assist investigators with rodent-based research. The benefits are as follows:
Reduces time and costs for colony management
Provides complete colony records including documentation of lineage
Ensures regulatory compliance
The following services are available at an hourly rate of $77. Total breeding colony management packages or individual services are provided. Individual consultation is provided at no charge.

Weekly (minimum) monitoring of breeding pairs
Twice weekly (minimum) monitoring of harem breeding pairs
Daily monitoring of pregnant females and females with litters
Separation of pregnant females (harem pens)
Weaning
Setup and retirement of breeders
Timed matings
Identification of individual animals
Record keeping and monthly reports
Biopsy for DNA analysis
Euthanasia
The Rodent Service can also provide technical assistance with chronic drug administration, sample collection, minor surgical procedures and other experimental procedures in rodents.
Unquote

Jersey*Girl said:

That's exactly what I think. Now, could you kindly explain what happens when the mice are overcrowded and the level of ammonia rises?

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It stinks to high heaven for one- it means there are so many mice in the cage the bedding becomes urine soaked- the humidity gets so high that you can see water on the sides of the cage, the mice all have wet fur and will stand up on their hind legs trying to stay dry. The air quality will be bad. Research mice are usually kept in a cage that looks like a plastic shoebox. It has a wire top that holds the food and water bottle, unless there's an automatic watering system. Then there is a filter top over the cage to keep any possible pathogens from getting into the cage. The filter top will keep that humidity inside the cage. I think the temperature can rise, too. Mice need to be kept at a certain humidity and temperature and that cage is not it.

puffster said:

And we think we're going to figure out the motive...

NEW HAVEN, Conn. – A Connecticut police chief says authorities may never know the motive for the killing of a Yale University graduate student whose body was found hidden behind a wall.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090918/ap_on_re_us/us_yale_killing_195

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Sadly, that's probably true. Even if Clark gives an explanation, even an accurate one, we'll never know for sure if he's being honest.

There is NO PLACE on WS where it is acceptable to attack other members. Period.

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side note...Hi ! Haven't run into you in awhile. Glad to have some time on WS this past week or 2. Really missed it here, was very busy over the summer. You and JBean are doing a FANTASTIC job! Hugs & smooches...haha!

I'm leaning toward a motive just like you described, Jersey*Girl. Maybe RC was unhappy about a LOT of things in his life, some of which he couldn't directly confront or maybe even consciously acknowledge, but this one thing -- IF it happened that way, and we don't yet know -- is something he could point to and say, "Hey, this is wrong and I'm really mad about it!"

And I know this because I see it in myself and in people around me. If I'm really angry about something that's NOT a humanitarian crisis or huge moral issue, I make myself stop and think what's *really* bugging me. Of course, I'm not gonna kill anybody over it or probably even raise my voice, 'cause that's not how I work, but being angry over the "wrong" thing because I'm not able to look at the true source of the problem is just crazy counterproductive.

In a seriously unstable person, this level of misdirected anger can result in all sorts of bad stuff.

'Ailina said:

Forgive me if this question has been asked before and I missed it.

Would Clark keep any kinds of records to show if Le's mice overpopulated, or a similar problem that would hamper Clark doing his job?

My thought is, Le would not have been slack -- she had a flawless reputation in her research.

But since her wedding was only a week away, it seems possible her mice got put on the back burner. Clark was trying to keep his "domain" under control, and Le was "making a mess." Possible?

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Yes the cages are flagged and a copy goes to the husbandry supervisor. They document everything.

Techs, students and PI's are ALL flawless in their research, but you would be surprised how often they need to be called about overcrowding.

A mouse pregnancy takes only 18-21 days. That's only 3 weeks. If you do pair mating, the female will mate immediately after giving birth. So in another 3 weeks the first litter is ready for weaning, the mom is having the second litter and all her daughters will be knocked up in a week. The average litter is around 8 pups, generally 50/50 M/F. So now you have 5 males, 5 pregnant females and a new litter in the cage. In just 3 more weeks, you will have 9 adult males, 9 pregnant females, and 40 newborn pups. In a shoebox. Just six weeks after you failed to wean that first litter. And that's just one breeding cage. You can have a colossal mess in short order. A good animal tech will step in before it gets this bad.

Now students are very busy. Busy, busy, busy. Exhausted. They have classes, lab meetings, journal club, experiments to do- it goes on and on. Then the animal room is sometimes on the other side of campus- out of sight, out of mind. It is very easy to have time slip away from you. It is not deliberate neglect at all, just too much to do and not enough time.

Larger labs will sometimes have a lab technician who handles all of the breeding, weaning, genotyping for all the PI's mice, but in smaller labs the students take care of their own mice.

Labrat said:

Yes the cages are flagged and a copy goes to the husbandry supervisor. They document everything.

Techs, students and PI's are ALL flawless in their research, but you would be surprised how often they need to be called about overcrowding.

A mouse pregnancy takes only 18-21 days. That's only 3 weeks. If you do pair mating, the female will mate immediately after giving birth. So in another 3 weeks the first litter is ready for weaning, the mom is having the second litter and all her daughters will be knocked up in a week. The average litter is around 8 pups, generally 50/50 M/F. So now you have 5 males, 5 pregnant females and a new litter in the cage. In just 3 more weeks, you will have 9 adult males, 9 pregnant females, and 40 newborn pups. In a shoebox. Just six weeks after you failed to wean that first litter. And that's just one breeding cage. You can have a colossal mess in short order. A good animal tech will step in before it gets this bad.

Now students are very busy. Busy, busy, busy. Exhausted. They have classes, lab meetings, journal club, experiments to do- it goes on and on. Then the animal room is sometimes on the other side of campus- out of sight, out of mind. It is very easy to have time slip away from you. It is not deliberate neglect at all, just too much to do and not enough time.

Larger labs will sometimes have a lab technician who handles all of the breeding, weaning, genotyping for all the PI's mice, but in smaller labs the students take care of their own mice.

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Sounds like Clark's job wasn't exactly stress-free?

'Ailina said:

Sounds like Clark's job wasn't exactly stress-free?

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bingo

Jersey*Girl said:

Guess what Labrat, Yale offers this service as part of their Rodent Services department! They handle the weaning, colonization and everything! It's done as a service to assist investigators and researchers! Holy cow! Could I have been on the right track all along?

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Do they charge for it? I believe we have that too, but it's a "special service" and is on the expensive side.

I think Yale may have closed the site to the public.

'Ailina said:

Sounds like Clark's job wasn't exactly stress-free?

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It would not be for a conscientous tech.

http://newhavenindependent.org/archives/2009/09/cops_arrest_lab.php

I read earlier today that the arrest warrant will be kept sealed for 14 days, so we may know the answers to some of these questions by the week after next. The cops interviewed a LOT of people, and I'm wondering if details about any conflicts about the mice will be in the warrant.

Labrat said:

Do they charge for it? I believe we have that too, but it's a "special service" and is on the expensive side.

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Yes, $77 an hour. I'm suggesting Raymond did some of this pro bono b/c he felt obligated to, maybe just maybe. Maybe the mice Annie was dealing with were "his" mice/responsibility. She was at Yale seeking 2 higher degrees and getting married in a week. I can easily see how she could have been a day late getting to the mice...not that she ignored them altogether, just maybe slipped her mind for a few. Maybe it was Raymond's responsibility to document some of this and he threatened her with something or other...idk. Maybe she said something back to him and an argument ensued. I mean, think about it Labrat. I always thought if certain protocol wasn;t followed, a person could get fined or something, possibly lose something (grant maybe or something). If a researcher doesn't follow protocol to the "t", aren't they taken off for awhile? idk. All I'm suggesting is hypothetically this could have been the triggering factor for his motive. Even though alot of us think it's trivial, nobody truly knows the environment he worked in with the exception of the very people that worked in his department. His supervisor could have been riding his "arse" about certain things and maybe Raymond was sick of it so started making everyone else adhere to protocol. If he was this nice guy like his friends said on Larry King last night, the type that would give the shirt off his back to somebody, then maybe he did alot of things that simply weren't in his job description. Maybe he was taken advantage of...not by Annie in specific but maybe a multitude of people. Maybe he was sick of it and it helped to become the triggering factor in Annie's demise. Poor Annie probably had no idea what she was walking into. He was probably stewing and stewing and stewing.