Why was Karr so important to Lacy??

SuperDave said:

Just to keep the record straight, UKGuy, I'm not alleging any kind of conspiracy or political "fix." That's IDI's terminology, a smoke-screen to avoid discussing legitimate issues. To me, it's more a case of all the wrong elements coming together.

That said, there is ONE important thing I forgot to add to the list, and that is the Not-So-Grand Jury and Lou Smit's involvement with such, in particular. KK said it best: Lou Smit should have gone to jail for what he did in this case. Instead, he somehow blackmailed the DA's office into keeping the evidence he took illegally from the case file and go before the Grand Jury. What did he know that gave him that kind of leverage?

See, the DA's office, both under Hunter and Lacy, has consistently acted as if they were hiding something they did NOT want to get out. I liken it to Nixon's resignation over Watergate. Did he do it purely as a way to preserve some respect for himself and the office of president? Or was he afraid that an investigation into the Watergate break-in would unearth something even worse?

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SuperDave,

Just to keep the record straight, UKGuy, I'm not alleging any kind of conspiracy or political "fix."

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Me neither. I am suggesting the evidence supports the view that there may have been a conspiracy, political fix, or both. Was it not JR who phoned the governor of Colorado that morning, for a quiet chat?

Have the phone records ever been released and checked.

Has the presence of Ramsey DNA on JonBenet been released?

Why was Det Arndt left alone to deal with both an abduction then a homicide case?

How did the R's get lawyered up so quickly, the legal instructions must have preceded the 911 call.

What was the relationship between the DA, his legal friends and those of Team Ramsey.

Did JR do a deal with Lou Smit, because if the FBI could work out what was going on, and Lou Smit could not, what use was he? His intruder theory is complete nonsense, from start to finish, Lou Smit never addresses the fact that there is no forensic evidence to demonstrate anyone other than a Ramsey entered the house, the night JonBenet died.

The R's are told their daughter has been kidnapped so they fling a house party and call a few friends over and relocate Burke just for good measure.

The initial LEA response smells like a setup, JR's legal representitives going around knocking on doors that day, looks like premeditated action, and thats what some people describe as conspiracy!


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Roy23 said:

The DNA is in CODIS because it meets the strict standards of CODIS. Any other speculation is just a conspiracy theory based on NO KNOWN facts.

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Pilgrim, the fact that you can make claims like that, and then, with a straight face, accuse anyone else of not knowing anything of substance is really rich.

Next time cynic comes around, ask him. I'm sure he'd be happy to dig up the news articles I mentioned. Then you would KNOW that it is not just speculation or "conspiracy theory." Then again, I might get a wild hair and dig them up for you myself. That assumes, of course, that you could be bothered to read them anyway.

Roy23 said:

The DNA is in CODIS because it meets the strict standards of CODIS. Any other speculation is just a conspiricy theory based on NO KNOWN facts.

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Roy23,

The DNA is in CODIS

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Sure but it does not follow that it belongs to the person who asphyxiated JonBenet.

It might belong to the little boy who used the toilet before JonBenet at the Whites. Both touched the flushing handle or the doorknob/latch on the toilet door.

It might belong to someone who was present at the Autopsy Procedure.


Being entered in CODIS does not magic the dna into Perpetrator status, its still touch-dna, with no known owner, and no proof that the touch-dna is connected in any way with the death of JonBenet.

Why has the DA not told us if Burke Ramsey's touch-dna was on those size-12's, or even the white longjohns, why the secrecy, is there a conspiracy of silence?

IDI has way too many questions than answers!




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UKGuy said:

SuperDave,

Me neither. I am suggesting the evidence supports the view that there may have been a conspiracy, political fix, or both. Was it not JR who phoned the governor of Colorado that morning, for a quiet chat?

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News to me, UKGuy.

Have the phone records ever been released and checked.

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No.

Has the presence of Ramsey DNA on JonBenet been released?

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No.

Why was Det Arndt left alone to deal with both an abduction then a homicide case?

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Good question.

How did the R's get lawyered up so quickly, the legal instructions must have preceded the 911 call.

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I don't know about that. My understanding has always been that Mike Bynum set the process in motion.

What was the relationship between the DA, his legal friends and those of Team Ramsey.

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Ah, and that is the $64 question. Quite a cozy relationship, from every source I can gather. As I said, several members of the DA's office were personal friends and business partners with Hal Haddon and his Merry Men.

We also know, thanks to court records made public, that Haddon and other CO DA's were in the habit of exchanging "favors."

Did JR do a deal with Lou Smit, because if the FBI could work out what was going on, and Lou Smit could not, what use was he? His intruder theory is complete nonsense, from start to finish, Lou Smit never addresses the fact that there is no forensic evidence to demonstrate anyone other than a Ramsey entered the house, the night JonBenet died.

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You're right about that. He didn't just not address it; as I've often said, he INVENTED "evidence" right out of thin air, often in direct contradiction of the actual examiners and pathologists. I don't know if JR ever did a deal with him. What I'm more interested in knowing is how he managed to leverage the deal with the DA that I mentioned.

The R's are told their daughter has been kidnapped so they fling a house party and call a few friends over and relocate Burke just for good measure.

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No kidding!

The initial LEA response smells like a setup, JR's legal representitives going around knocking on doors that day, looks like premeditated action, and thats what some people describe as conspiracy!

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I admit, it lends itself to conspiracy theories easily.

Frankly, I'm more interested in the conspiracy theories the Ramseys and their votaries would have us believe!

SuperDave said:

News to me, UKGuy.



No.



No.



Good question.



I don't know about that. My understanding has always been that Mike Bynum set the process in motion.



Ah, and that is the $64 question. Quite a cozy relationship, from every source I can gather. As I said, several members of the DA's office were personal friends and business partners with Hal Haddon and his Merry Men.

We also know, thanks to court records made public, that Haddon and other CO DA's were in the habit of exchanging "favors."



You're right about that. He didn't just not address it; as I've often said, he INVENTED "evidence" right out of thin air, often in direct contradiction of the actual examiners and pathologists. I don't know if JR ever did a deal with him. What I'm more interested in knowing is how he managed to leverage the deal with the DA that I mentioned.



No kidding!



I admit, it lends itself to conspiracy theories easily.

Frankly, I'm more interested in the conspiracy theories the Ramseys and their votaries would have us believe!

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SuperDave,
Lou Smit, a fellow Ramsey travellor, invented evidence, now why would he do that. Why would Patsy's sister be given the use of a police car, and jacket so to disguise her, and allow her to remove crime-scene evidence, who sanctioned this?

Nobody is alleging there was a conspiracy just that the actions of the BPD, the DA's office and the Ramsey's suggest that there was one?


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UKGuy said:

SuperDave,
Lou Smit, a fellow Ramsey traveller, invented evidence, now why would he do that.

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Best guess? A combination of age-related cognitive decline and massive ego. He wanted his record.

Why would Patsy's sister be given the use of a police car, and jacket so to disguise her, and allow her to remove crime-scene evidence, who sanctioned this?

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Good question. But as anyone who studies conspiracy theories will tell you, never ascribe to malice what you can ascribe to incompetence.

Nobody is alleging there was a conspiracy just that the actions of the BPD, the DA's office and the Ramsey's suggest that there was one?

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I can see how the idea would arise.

SuperDave said:

Best guess? A combination of age-related cognitive decline and massive ego. He wanted his record.



Good question. But as anyone who studies conspiracy theories will tell you, never ascribe to malice what you can ascribe to incompetence.



I can see how the idea would arise.

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SuperDave,

JR and LS pray quietly together, then,

JR says to LS:

Lou I reckon some crazy pedophile snuck into my house last night, maybe came in throught the basement window?

LS: You could be right Mr Ramsey, there are plenty crazies out there, the garrote sure looks professional like.

JR: Lou we must catch this intruder, I want justice for my daughter.

LS: I will pray for you.




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SuperDave said:

Pilgrim, the fact that you can make claims like that, and then, with a straight face, accuse anyone else of not knowing anything of substance is really rich.

Next time cynic comes around, ask him. I'm sure he'd be happy to dig up the news articles I mentioned. Then you would KNOW that it is not just speculation or "conspiracy theory." Then again, I might get a wild hair and dig them up for you myself. That assumes, of course, that you could be bothered to read them anyway.

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I have read enough. At least UK guy can admit it meets the federal standards instead of creating some fictional story of how it was forced there. Dont take it so personal. I have come to realize that the more you know in this case means you know less. You got suckered by the media, pimps, and prostitutes. The truth is coming. I just wonder how much you will fight it when you see just how gullible you were.

UKGuy said:

SuperDave,

JR and LS pray quietly together, then,

JR says to LS:

Lou I reckon some crazy pedophile snuck into my house last night, maybe came in throught the basement window?

LS: You could be right Mr Ramsey, there are plenty crazies out there, the garrote sure looks professional like.

JR: Lou we must catch this intruder, I want justice for my daughter.

LS: I will pray for you.




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That is probably how it happened, more or less. (Accounts from people who were there state that Smit hadn't been on the case LONG enough to have seen the garrote by that point.)

SuperDave said:

That is probably how it happened, more or less. (Accounts from people who were there state that Smit hadn't been on the case LONG enough to have seen the garrote by that point.)

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SuperDave,
I never knew that. I heard some politico practising his rhetoric in public, and like him, I was just extemporizing, about the garrote, LOL.



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Roy23 said:

I have read enough.

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SURE you have.

At least UK guy can admit it meets the federal standards instead of creating some fictional story of how it was forced there.

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One, it sounds like you're putting words in UKGuy's mouth. (He's right, BTW)

Two, and even I'm getting tired of how stuck the record is, if you HAD read the articles I've mentioned, you'd know that it is not fictional. It's reasonable.

Don't take it so personal.

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Damn right, I'm going to take it personally!

I have come to realize that the more you know in this case means you know less.

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Our mutual "friend" is living proof of that! I think you know who I mean. Smurf86 does.

You got suckered by the media, pimps, and prostitutes.

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Look who's talking.

The truth is coming. I just wonder how much you will fight it when you see just how gullible you were.

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Isn't that a hoot? I was going to say the same!

UKGuy said:

SuperDave,
I never knew that. I heard some politico practising his rhetoric in public, and like him, I was just extemporizing, about the garrote, LOL.



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I understood you perfectly.

Look, Roy, I'm starting to get a headache. So if we can take a short break from our back-and-forth, I'd like you to answer me just ONE thing. Was it not YOU who said, "I wonder if LE is more concerned about a lawsuit from JR than with justice for JB?" Were those not your words? Did I somehow misinterpret you?

Roy, what type of lawsuit do you suppose, based on what you said above, JR would file against LE (I assume JR stands for John Ramsey????)

Anyone can sue anybody for anything but whether the claim has a day in court is another matter.

BOESP said:

Roy, what type of lawsuit do you suppose, based on what you said above, JR would file against LE (I assume JR stands for John Ramsey????)

Anyone can sue anybody for anything but whether the claim has a day in court is another matter.

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BOESP,
LE might say, bring it on, then in the production phase, they might roll out some of the evidence they have buried away in the Ramsey evidence cage. JR would quickly head for the hills,.


Not only can you sue anyone, including corporations, in the USofA, you can also sue them overseas, in any jurisdiction that might suit your case. So you could litigate in London, where serious money purchases favorable terms and conditions.


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SuperDave said:

Look, Roy, I'm starting to get a headache. So if we can take a short break from our back-and-forth, I'd like you to answer me just ONE thing. Was it not YOU who said, "I wonder if LE is more concerned about a lawsuit from JR than with justice for JB?" Were those not your words? Did I somehow misinterpret you?

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Yeah, I did say that. It was more like just a tongue in cheek comment and that is why I used a words like "I wonder". For the record, I don't really believe that LE would ignore JBR's killer just because John Ramsey might retailiate for his pain, suffering, and damaged reputation.

I, like everyone else, sometimes get hot and bothered over the mistakes made by all parties associated with this case. I believe the killer is and has been right in front of them all along for 16 years. I hope that answers your question.

"Our mutual "friend" is living proof of that! I think you know who I mean. Smurf86 does."


If you are referring to who I think you are referring to, I kind of see both of you guys the same but on opposite ends of the spectrum. Just being honest. If this were another case, I would probably commend you on your dedication. I don't particularly even like arguing with RDI's or other IDI's. I don't like for IDI's to ask me to team up to fight the RDIs. I don't like for IDI's from other website boards to ask me to inform folks here of other websites.

I know you hate my answer that I have read enough. You can call it lazy, uninformed, or whatever. I tried it. When you read on this case, you can interpret it to form whatever opinion that your mind wants to hear. Either IDI or RDI. Most of the reading is poison. And quite frankly, I believe LE has already basically told us they are looking for an unknown killer. If they thought it was a Ramsey, they would still be singing like canary's.

My .02.

UKGuy said:

BOESP,
LE might say, bring it on, then in the production phase, they might roll out some of the evidence they have buried away in the Ramsey evidence cage. JR would quickly head for the hills.

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That's some of what I was going to tell BOESP, UKGuy. But, by the same token, maybe LE rolling out some of that evidence is what JR and Lin Wood want. Sometimes, when it comes to lawsuits, it doesn't matter if you win or lose as long as you drag the other guy's sins into the light.

Let me tell you guys a little story. About ten years ago, FOXNews did a blurb on this case. Two years later, the Rs filed suit against them. But, it didn't go. The judge in the case, Figa, threw the case out as meritless (which it was), and even chastised the Rs for trying to silence people who disagreed with them.

But, make no mistake: while I agree with Judge Figa's reasoning, I ALMOST wish the case HAD gone forward, and I'll tell you why: FOXNews had stated publically and in documents filed in court that they were seeking to gain full access to the official case files--ie, they were not going to repeat Hoffman's mistakes. DA Mary Lacy said that she would fight them tooth and nail to keep it under wraps.

Since the case did not go forward, there was no need for Lacy and FOXNews to continue their tug-of-war. And I think that's a bad thing, because I think it would have been interesting to see just WHAT legal argument Lacy would have made in court to justify keeping the files' content secret.

The reason I say all of this is because it falls into the PATTERN I was trying to tell Roy about: namely, that there seems to be SOMETHING that the Boulder DA's office does NOT want to come out! Mary Lacy's refusal to allow access to the files seems in keeping with many actions of her predecessor, Alex Hunter, such as his allowing Lou Smit to blackmail him into keeping the evidence he stole and into going before the Grand Jury; his calling the Grand Jury only to make sure that the Governor didn't take the case away from him; and his pulling the rug out from under the Grand Jury before they could vote so he wouldn't have to, as Henry Lee put it, "confess his own sins."

Any thoughts, folks?

Roy23 said:

Yeah, I did say that. It was more like just a tongue in cheek comment and that is why I used a words like "I wonder".

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Well, you didn't SOUND like you were joking. I was HOPING you weren't, in fact.

For the record, I don't really believe that LE would ignore JBR's killer just because John Ramsey might retailiate for his pain, suffering, and damaged reputation.

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Well, number one, purely as a matter of my own opinion, if John Ramsey wants to retaliate against someone for his "pain, suffering and damaged reputation," it's not LE he should direct his wrath against!

Number two, and more to the point, I don't necessarily believe it, either. But at the same time, I can't ignore the pattern of behavior in the DA's office.

I, like everyone else, sometimes get hot and bothered over the mistakes made by all parties associated with this case. I believe the killer is and has been right in front of them all along for 16 years. I hope that answers your question.

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I suppose it does. I think the killer has been right in front of them, too.

I have a few questions I'd like your opinion on.

Roy23 said:

"Our mutual "friend" is living proof of that! I think you know who I mean. Smurf86 does."

If you are referring to who I think you are referring to, I kind of see both of you guys the same but on opposite ends of the spectrum. Just being honest.

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Well, I certainly applaud honesty. So, in turn, allow ME to be honest. I don't find that comparison to be all that flattering. I'm NOTHING like him.

Speaking of unflattering comparisons, I've got one. As you are no doubt aware, when Casey Anthony walked free, I went crazy. And in that berserk rage, I held IDI as being partly responsible, since most of their arguments seem to jibe with those of Casey's lawyer, Jose Baez--a poor excuse for humanity if I ever saw one--and would seem to validate my worst fears about the legal system.

Well, time has done little to heal those wounds. Just last night, I was flipping through the channels, and who did I see on "Dr. Drew" but Jose Baez himself? I didn't listen long, but he said something that got me going.

Remember how I keep telling people that the way to solve domestic homicides is to slap the cuffs on them and toss them into jail until they crack? You--among others--expressed derision at that idea. Well, apparently, Jose Baez is on the same side as you on that one, saying that it's an archaic technique and cops need to get with the 21st century.

So, congratulations! You and Jose Baez are simpatico. If I were in your shoes, Roy, that would bother me on general principle!

If this were another case, I would probably commend you on your dedication. I don't particularly even like arguing with RDI's or other IDI's.

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I know what you mean. There are times when I would give almost ANYTHING to talk with Sendis again. (You didn't know him.)

I know you hate my answer that I have read enough.

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I can only imagine what YOU would say if the roles were reversed.

You can call it lazy, uninformed, or whatever.

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Among OTHER things.

I tried it. When you read on this case, you can interpret it to form whatever opinion that your mind wants to hear. Either IDI or RDI. Most of the reading is poison.

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For whatever it means to you, Roy, I CAN sympathize. This case is tough to keep up with. It really tears your guts out sometimes, doesn't it?

And quite frankly, I believe LE has already basically told us they are looking for an unknown killer. If they thought it was a Ramsey, they would still be singing like canaries.

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I don't agree with that. To what END, Roy? What good would it do them to "sing" about it?