IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #20

Hmmm....just digesting information/ideas/opinions from other posters again and have some more food for thought.

Before I say anything....I do not suspect JW more than JR/CR/MB. I honestly don't know which to lean towards as there is no information that tips the scale as to who is guilty. They all have their own alibi's that aren't proven by any sort of video...just word of mouth. But I do believe that she OD'd...just don't know who was present at the time (which would indicate who hid the body).

So on with it. As far as JW not knowing about the fight at SW...I have some what if's of my own. There have been reports on both sides on whether or not there was a friend of JW's involved/witnessed the altercation at SW. That part has been muddy. But my thought is that even if there wasn't a friend (meaning someone who talks to JW that would have his number) directly involved in the altercation....how do we know that the ZO crowd didn't go tell someone at SW who would be a friend of JW. Suppose they were heading to/leaving a party there, which explains their presence...or just visiting someone(s) there...and bragged of their brave story about punching CR (who was with LS) to everyone there. So there was a group of individuals hanging out at a party and one of them happened to be a friend of JW. Can we assume that one of JW's friends would have heard/overheard about the fight that night....and would have definitely text JW about it. This may explain...having a JW friend who knew about the fight that night....that may muddy the water as the story is passed down...that may explain why some think a JW friend was directly involved in the fight. He could have just been around right after it happened when the fight was being bragged about. He almost has firsthand knowledge of the altercation, leading some to believe that he was actually one of the parties present when it happened. Just a thought...which leads into a theory of mine.

So....here's the thought of mine that would make JW seem more suspicious to LE and the Spierer family. I do kind of believe that their pleas are to a friend of LS's (theirs) that they know well....and JW would be the boy that LS and the family would know best. JMO and could definitely be wrong. So what if someone did text him about the fight...which was supposedly after he went to sleep. What if he got those texts but didn't respond...just went looking for LS. What if LE knows about those texts (having his phone records)...but JW's alibi of sleeping is his reason for not responding to texts. Therefore he can say that he didn't know of the fight 'that night'. You can't prove or unprove this alibi and story of not knowing about the fight until the next morning. In fact, he could say that when he woke up and read those texts that itself gave him reason to start worrying that morning. Of course he would tell his friends that he didn't know about the fight that night...which he would back up by saying that he was sleeping (and has his roommate that believes they went to sleep at the same time...as far as he knows).

I'm not saying that this happened. But if so LE has reason to put him on the suspicious list. I just think that there has to be some reason unknown to us that they were...as of the last search with the dogs...still questioning JW's story recently. JR's own story to HT is that LS was heading home at 4:30am. If LS told JR that she was heading to JW's, then we would have heard about that from HT for sure (she likes to tell what she knows). And JW is not on camera anywhere near LS that night...nor is LS heading that way on camera. So why would LE be investigating JW so hard still? It's possible that they are just doing their job and not leaving any stone unturned...I know that. It just looks to me that there is reason to still suspect JW to some degree (meaning LE reason). Keep in mind that he is fully cooperating with LE, has a roommate vouching for his whereabouts at 2:30 and 8:00am, and has LS's roommates observing his concern and helping search for LS. So besides the 5 1/2 hr gap in time while he was sleeping, his story seems to be believable and none of his friends seem to have reason to question his story. I'm just trying to figure out why LE would still be focusing so hard on him. He did have to talk to LE again very recently and submit to a polygraph...which seems like they are still questioning his story. I'm just saying...that's all. Food for thought?? LE knows something that we don't. What could it be? No video evidence of him being around that night, no concrete information sugessting that she was headed to his place, and lots of people who vouch for him. It's been reported from several that it'd be really hard to avoid cameras if JW was involved. Anyone have any thoughts on this particular line of thought? Did he pass the polygraph? Those can be wrong. Even if he failed, they aren't usable in court. And without a body or not circumstantial evidence...how can you make an arrest?

OTOH...From what I see, JW's initial concern seemed warranted, he seems genuinely upset, he's fully cooperating, and no one can debunk his story. So I have a hard time suspecting him. The last one to see her alive is not talking...that's the easiest explanation. JW's involvement would be a really complicated situation on how he pulled it off without being seen at all.

I know some of you think that he jumped the gun on reporting her...but if my SO was supposed to meet up with me one night and didn't and never contacted me, I'd be trying to get ahold of them the next morning too. And if I couldn't get ahold of them after several text messages and calls...I may just call their roommate that afternoon (it was at least noon) to ask if they were still sleeping...especially knowing that they were initially hanging out earlier in the night when JW/LS had discussed meeting up. HT and JW seemed to be cool so why not call or text HT to see. I have contaced my SO's friends before when I became concerned about them and couldn't reach them. Since they live together it would just be the next logical thing to do. Keep in mind that JW couldn't just go over to SW to knock on LS's door as he needed a key to use the elevator up to her floor. So you would normally contact the next logical person. I would think that HT told JW that LS left and went to JR's and that she didn't know if she came home or not. Then when JW discovered that LS hadn't come home that night by going to SW...he would probably contact JR to see if she was there (before going to the police). So if he didn't have JR's number then that would make sense that HT then called JR before going to the police...and HT is reporting to media her call to JR. HT and friends aren't silly enough to involve the police if they hadn't checked with her companion that night first. Details of CR and such didn't even have to be available then. JR's story to HT was enough...she left here at 4:30am and I haven't seen her since...and she didn't arrive home. Now no one knows where she is...and the bar lets them know that she doens't even have her phone with her. HT knew her physical state when she left SW for JR's...and knew that she went there to party more. Normal reaction to me is to start to really worry that something happened to her. You are now stuck and have no idea where she is...and know she was impaired the night before. Why not alert someone of authority at that point. If she turns up then all is good...they aren't going to get in trouble for going to LE since they are concerned. Several people...other than JW...were concerned so that part of the story has always added up to me. And even the later 'official' missing person report by her parents the next day...24 hrs after last being seen per procedure for adults...makes sense. And then her parents even flew out the next day after she didn't show up. LE was just notified of the missing person on Friday. LE probably wasn't too concerned yet as they are college kids and she could have crashed somewhere else. But much of that is assumed...as we don't know actual details...so don't shoot me there. But I'd like someone to tell me how that whole line of thinking would be flawed. Her boyfriend may be jealous and paranoid, but her girlfriends were concerned too so there has to be some logic there.

So I talk about both sides of the coin there. I can't find anything suspicious with JW's story given the info that we know. So maybe there is more to that story.

I still have this gut feeling that the DEA is involved. They have raided twice before in B-town. There were no arrests made. The DEA is very careful about having plenty of evidence before raiding. So what happened there? My hunch is that they are using the college kids to bait a dealer higher up. Happens all of the time. Arresting the low people on the totem pole doesn't really stop the drug use in the community. That would also explain the informant rumors going around. But if DEA performed two raids and no arrests were made...do they just walk away when the drug problem in B-town is known? And now someone OD's from the lack of DEA arrests....how is that going to look? Pretty bad, huh? And keeping those drug dealers under wraps so that they don't give away their case would also be reason why the POI names aren't being released, LE is giving confusing answers a lot of the time, and stuff like that. From what other students are saying (since POI's aren't talking), drugs were involved...and DEA has been in B-town. All speculation...but you draw your own conclusions.

JR and the drug theory...or JW and the jealousy theory. Who knows? Sorry this is so long. I don't post much...not much time...so I crammed it all in one post.

Chris007 said:

Don Cranfill is a local resident here who is the point man for the Spierer's here in bloomington for the searches.

Has LE ever said if she was wearing any Jewelry or not?

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Yes she was. Rings and earrings. I recently read a list of all the pieces even the ring designer. It may have been here on WS. This is why some searchers were on their hands and knees combing through grass.

Jupiter812 said:

Yes she was. Rings and earrings. I recently read a list of all the pieces even the ring designer. It may have been here on WS. This is why some searchers were on their hands and knees combing through grass.

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What about an ankle bracelet? Or did her leggings have zippers? Thanks for the info.

Chris007 said:

What about an ankle bracelet? Or did her leggings have zippers? Thanks for the info.

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I don't know about the ankle bracelet. Yes, her leggings had zippers.

Jupiter812 said:

Yes she was. Rings and earrings. I recently read a list of all the pieces even the ring designer. It may have been here on WS. This is why some searchers were on their hands and knees combing through grass.

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DIAMOND STUD BAR BELLY RING, LARGE SILVER RING WITH TORQUOISE STONE MADE BY DAVID YURMAN, SMALL GOLD BAND PINKY RING WITH SMALL RED STONE, ROUND SILVER "O" SHAPED RING, THIN GOLD BRACELET WITH RED "EVIL EYE" RUBY SURROUNDED BY DIAMONDS, POSSIBLY A BLUE HALF MOON NECKLACE

https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/show/11173

I think she would only have been put into a dumpster and thus landfill, if this was a random killing that took place in an alley someplace. If one or some of the students were involved I think she was probably taken in a car away from the area. I'm not sure they would want her body found so close to their turf, possibly bearing fingerprints, etc....just a feeling, JMO.

In a panic situation a dumpster would be quick and easy. If a person or persons know a dumpster is going to be picked up before anyone is likely to even be looking for the body then I'd think that makes it an even more likely scenario. I doubt they'd know about transfer stations or how the garbage is dumped at the landfill in specific locations and just assume it's a random dump but you'd think that wouldn't be much of a factor in the thinking even if it was known.

First and foremost anyone involved would know that they'd be getting the body away from the area without hardly leaving their home.

I still think a dumpster could be likely just for the simple fact it's quick and easy and an alibi could be concocted along with a finger of suspicion pointed at a homeless person or some random car if the body was found. Especially for someone who didn't cause the death thru inflicting some kind of wound that might traceable.

cluciano63 said:

I think she would only have been put into a dumpster and thus landfill, if this was a random killing that took place in an alley someplace. If one or some of the students were involved I think she was probably taken in a car away from the area. I'm not sure they would want her body found so close to their turf, possibly bearing fingerprints, etc....just a feeling, JMO.

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People have been dumped into dumpsters, and strangers aren't always involved in those cases.

Could someone direct me to the area of the Bloomington transfer station. TY

jjenny said:

People have been dumped into dumpsters, and strangers aren't always involved in those cases.

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No, I know...I just get a picture in my mind of a car being used if the students are involved, to get her out the area...no reason other than a feeling. I think they would want to distance themselves physically from where they say she was last seen.

mamamia54 said:

Could someone direct me to the area of the Bloomington transfer station. TY

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no one can just go rummaging through landfills.

there is another thread here for Andrew Compton. a man admitted to placing Andrew's body in a dumpster. LE checked the routes of all the trash haulers in the area and ascertained what landfill would have been used. despite losing only about a week (give or take) and having some idea of what landfill the body went, they could not find it despite a meticulous search.

here we have no information that LS ended up in a dumpster, no less which dumpster which would lead to a location of a landfill. every day tons of trash are deposited in these landfills. besides the fact that I doubt private citizen are allowed into landfills, no one is going to find a body this far out, even if they knew which landfill she was in.

cluciano63 said:

No, I know...I just get a picture in my mind of a car being used if the students are involved, to get her out the area...no reason other than a feeling. I think they would want to distance themselves physically from where they say she was last seen.

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Well if somebody knows the day trash is picked up, then it would make sense to dump a body into a dumpster expecting it to be picked up quickly.

Tr. said:

I disagree. The kind of work an attorney has done is exactly the reason you would hire him.
I understand you are a law student...but if you are a practicing attorney with experience in prosecution then you know a lot of people at the police station and would make an excellent liaison.
JW hired a liaison.

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All attorneys are liasons. Communicating for their client is why they are hired. All attorneys need to be able to have good communication with judges, law enforcement, etc. because that is what they do. All good lawyering requires good communication.

I am saying that hiring a criminal attorney means NOTHING in determining whether he is guilty or innocent. In a case like this, regardless of whether you are innocent, you are going to hire an attorney who conducts criminal defenses because you are likely to be on the defense. You can not conclude that a person has committed a felony because they hired an attorney who has litigated felonies. It wouldn't make any sense for JW to hire an attorney who does civil suits, wrongful injury suits, property law, etc. You hire an attorney based on the type of activity in question and types of charges likely to be brought, NOT based on whether you are guilty or innocent. You want an attorney who is familiar with the rules of evidence, a great orator, who knows both statutory and common criminal law to a T. I can guarantee you every innocent person who has been charged with a felony hired a criminal attorney. You just cannot put any weight on the past cases an attorney has litigated when trying to determine guilt. Using that logic, every person who hires a criminal attorney is guilty. There's a reason that sort of speculation isn't allowed in the courtroom. An attorney may be particularly good at conducting a defense, of course, but that does not say anything about guilt.

jjenny said:

Well if somebody knows the day trash is picked up, then it would make sense to dump a body into a dumpster expecting it to be picked up quickly.

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I don't mean to say it is impossible...I just have a picture in my head of a bunch of guys with access to all kinds of vehicles and thinking "let's get her clear of here"...as I said, just a feeling.

Pedrosmom said:

Why would JW retain an attorney if he didn't see her at all that night?

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Because the boyfriend is always a person of interest.

Tr. said:

In your opinion it makes sense.

IF CR were so worried about the list you refer to then why would he walk past all of those security cameras on his way to getting the snot knocked out of him?
"Hey SmallWood security...here I am trespassing...again".

He didn't give a crap about that list and neither did LS. SmallWood officials talked about the list in an interview and all but said they don't enforce it.
They even went as far as to say that a person on that list could walk right by a security guard and they wouldn't necessarily notice because they don;t ask everyone for ID as they come and go out of the building.
The most that would have happened to CR if caught at SW is to be told to leave.

As for the actual cops showing up...ZO would have been cuffed and hauled off in a caged back seat like a dog. Any of his homies that had anything to say may have got to ride along.

No, the reason they didn't go in the apt is because they were not "allowed" to do so by the hall monitors all of which should be arrested and charged using the surveillance video as evidence.
Imo of course

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We'll have to agree to disagree here. I and many others have set forth the reasons why we believe it was best for them to leave. What I and others have suggested explains everything; your opinion leaves us without answers. I am assuming that you believe the kids at SW were involved with Lauren's disappearance - apologies if this isn't true - and that would color your opinion.

CR didn't KNOW he was going to be confronted. He likely thought he and LS were just going to walk to her apartment, no questions asked. Have you never tried to get away with something because the risk was so small? Regardless of whether or not the "list" was enforced, he was on it for a reason. No, the "list" wasn't going to be enforced if he was just walking in with Lauren, doing nothing wrong. But he had been in trouble at SW before. The moment he got into an altercation, the risk that he would be in some sort of trouble increased tenfold. Think of open container laws. In a lot of places, the cops will look the other way. But the moment you do something that causes a disturbance, they'll get you on it in an instant.

And why wait around for the cops anyways? No one wants to deal with the cops regardless of who was "at fault." I got into a minor car accident a few weeks ago. I was not at fault, but instead of calling the cops, the other driver and I made an agreement amongst ourselves because we didn't want to go through the trouble. I just can not see why he would stick around and neither can most other people, so I'm going to drop it.

cluciano63 said:

I don't mean to say it is impossible...I just have a picture in my head of a bunch of guys with access to all kinds of vehicles and thinking "let's get her clear of here"...as I said, just a feeling.

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But we don't know if whoever is responsible had access to all kinds of vehicles. Even LE said early on that LS and some of her "buddies" didn't have vehicles.

cluciano63 said:

No, I know...I just get a picture in my mind of a car being used if the students are involved, to get her out the area...no reason other than a feeling. I think they would want to distance themselves physically from where they say she was last seen.

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Well, if the people involved know the dumpster is being picked up before anyone would likely be looking for her then they'd also know they'd be distancing themselves physically from where they say she was last seen and where the body ultimately ended up. And rather easily I might add.

Factor in them not knowing (which is easily possible) that trash ends up in specific areas of the landfill and in that case they'd really think they'd distanced her body from them and where she was last seen. If that thought is true they'd be thinking that even if the body is found at the landfill it could've came from any dumpster at any time and not necessarily pinpointed back to a dumpster near them or even any particular dumpster they had been around... ever...

In a panic situation it just seems to me they'd want to dispose of the body as quickly as possible... not be driving around and risk further exposure to witnesses, speeding tickets, cameras, not being at home, car breakdowns, leaving evidence in the car, making the car a crime scene, etc..

But that said, in a panic situation they likely wouldn't be thinking clearly either. And I use the term 'they' even though it's just as likely one person could be all that is involved based on what we know.

Nothing I've read makes me discount the dumpster scenario at all. In fact, I only look at it as the stronger possibility.

GobBluth said:

These kids would just need a criminal atty, be it a prosecutor or defense atty, simply to help them navigate through the processes in this situation, even if they are not guilty.

I was referred to a criminal defense atty to help me w/a situation w/a crazy ex that broke into my home and attacked me. I was the victim and not guilty of anything, but the communication w/prosecutors and defense atty and victim advocate etc was OVERwhelming.

Another question for anyone, and again, this might have been answered, so I apologize if it has. Does JW have an alibi? I'm not accusing him, but I'm trying to piece it all together, and I keep going back to means, motive, and opportunity.

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He says he was at him home, watching a game, and then went to sleep afterwards. There was indeed a pretty big basketball game on that night, the NBA playoffs, so that supports his story. Whether or not LE buys it isn't clear.

If Don Cranfill is working on the search effort directly with the Spierer's as indicated in post #337, then I don't see any reason to discredit his report of the cadaver dog hit on the dumpster where she was last seen. (Plus he said that it wasn't just the psychic's dogs that hit there, that LE cadaver dogs hit there too..I don't think that's a coincidence). Getting info from him is almost akin to getting info from the Spierer's if he is working side by side with them (per the post)

Last seen place of LS that night is 5 North....no matter if they are talking about the camera evidence at 2:51am behind 5 North, or if they are referring to the boys seeing her at 5 North. Also remember that first report of the (person alive) search dogs losing her scent in the gravel lot behind 5 North? Not something that LE has said officially (of course). Everyone was saying taken from the gravel lot area by vehicle....anyone think a garbage truck is a vehicle? Definitely brings some of this together. 2+2=4
JMO.

Dumpster pickup at 5 North, as seen by the eyes of a poster here who is in B-town(but I don't have the exact post to quote), is Friday morning. So the post that someone else put on the previous page about about LE suspecting that she is in the landfill would make total sense. I just can't figure out from there why they wouldn't check the landfills. Hmmm.

Don Cranfill also said on LS: Case Discussion facebook page that he could confirm the cadaver dog hit, that the Spierer's were notified, and that LE was notified....but that he couldn't comment on what LE did with that information (where the case went from there). I really hope that means that they are onto something and just can't report it.

Is there any way that LE is/has in fact searching the landfill in Terra Haute and we just don't know anything about it? Could they find a way to keep that a secret? (hushing landfill workers or media that might follow them there and such somehow) Any ideas or example of this happening?

If they couldn't find a body there, I don't think that they would want the POI's to know that....as that would take any heat off of them...all they would have to do is stay silent and they got away with it. No body, no hard evidence, no crime. Reasonable doubt most definitely rules here. No one wants that. May be a reason to keep it quiet in hopes of eventually breaking someone's silence. I dunno....just trying to think it thru.